Gender

so I felt like it was time for a catch-all discussion about gender since we've had several small ones regarding feminism, transgenderism and other related topics!

Before we start please remember that:

• Sex is not gender! Sex refers to genetics, chromosones and the reproductive system. Gender is a societal construct and relates to how we identify as people. Male and Female are sexes; Man, Woman, and Agender (and many others, or a mix of those) are genders. Gender is significantly less limiting than Sex in this context!

• Cisgender is when you are comfortable with your biological sex and accept that as your gender identity. For example; I was born female and comfortably identify as a woman, so I'm cisgender.

• Transgender People who identify as trans* feel uncomfortable with their sex versus their gender, reflected as a mismatch between their gender identity and their assigned sex.

• Genderqueer: "Those who identify as genderqueer generally reject typical, binary systems of sex or gender outright, often express or seek to invent, a gender identity for themselves that and/or participate in endeavors, behaviors or activism which queer up traditional gender approaches." (source)

• Agender or Genderlessness is when you reject gender associations or don't feel comfortable identifying as any gender. (note: this does not mean you should automatically refer to agender people as it. Some people prefer it but some people find it offensive!)

Some topics to get us started!

• If you're not cisgender, what does that feel like? If you are cisgender, what's your understanding of what that feels like?

• What are your thoughts on alternate pronouns? Have you used any? Have you had difficulties? How do you feel about gender-neutral pronouns such as they/their/them, ey/eir/em or zhe/zhir/zhim?

• What are your thoughts on how gender is represented in society? Conversely, what are your thoughts on the relative invisibility of non-cisgender people in society (eg. in the media or in legislation)?

• Or you can suggest one that is fine too!

this thread brought to you by ultraviolet likes to procrastinate on homework & co with help from Hiikaru

if I have gotten something wrong, please bring it up and/or suggest something else!

Honestly, how I see it all, is that we basically are the gender we identify with. If you want to be called a girl, then you are one, the same with a boy.

Being that gender is a societal construct that brings people nothing but trouble, I kind of hate the idea of considering myself to have a "gender identity" at all. I call myself a woman and want to be referred to by the pronoun "she" because I have female genitalia and therefore both have a vested interest in women's rights and have simply been brought up to be used to it, but the idea that the societal construct of femininity is supposed to ride along with that, and that by calling myself a woman I am somehow accepting or condoning that societal construct or associating myself with 'feminine' interests, personality traits or behavioral norms, is repulsive to me.

In my ideal world, gender the societal construct just wouldn't exist. Meanwhile, I'm very tired of the idea that gender the grammatical construct has something to do with gender the societal construct. I live in a country where we arbitrarily apply feminine pronouns to trousers and masculine pronouns to dresses and it wouldn't cross anyone's mind to start associating that in any manner with who is supposed to wear what or think what or do what. If gender the societal construct were to evaporate but grammatical gender for people remained as that kind of arbitrary thing, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

ultraviolet said:

• What are your thoughts on alternate pronouns? Have you used any? Have you had difficulties? How do you feel about gender-neutral pronouns such as they/their/them, ey/eir/em or zhe/zhir/zhim?

• What are your thoughts on how gender is represented in society? Conversely, what are your thoughts on the relative invisibility of non-cisgender people in society (eg. in the media or in legislation)?

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1) I use they/their/them as gender-neutral pronouns - I think that the coined ones sound far too fake, and, quite frankly, slightly degrading to non-cisgenders.
2) Butterfree summed it up for me. Gender as a societal construct/societal gender "roles" just shouldn't exist - it's caused many problems today.

Butterfree said:

Being that gender is a societal construct that brings people nothing but trouble, I kind of hate the idea of considering myself to have a "gender identity" at all. I call myself a woman and want to be referred to by the pronoun "she" because I have female genitalia and therefore both have a vested interest in women's rights and have simply been brought up to be used to it, but the idea that the societal construct of femininity is supposed to ride along with that, and that by calling myself a woman I am somehow accepting or condoning that societal construct or associating myself with 'feminine' interests, personality traits or behavioral norms, is repulsive to me.

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That's cool for you, but being cisgender yourself, can you not see how saying things like this might be upsetting for a non-cisgender person, or indeed maybe even a cisgender person?

For some people, gender very much does feel like something innate and powerful and important to them, and it's not fair to just dismiss that because of how you feel. Even if gender is purely a societal construct, which I would when pushed perhaps agree with, that doesn't detract from its importance or validity, really.

For me personally, I've called myself female and used female pronouns all my life, and I have a very deep interest in women's rights, and also have female genitalia, but I've accepted that gender is not important to me whatsoever and is something I very rarely feel any connection to at all - and, indeed, being gendered makes me feel very uncomfortable. That doesn't mean that for other people, being called 'female' and 'she' and feeling wholly like a woman aren't important things.

If everyone just saw how they feel about things as how they feel, I think that would be pretty useful. I mean, isn't it kind of unfair to be all "I wish gender could just disappear! That'd be a great world!" when gender is very important to lots of people, and may be an immensely important part of their life? What about the trans people you know who struggle with not being perceived as how they are and this important thing that they feel being dismissed by nearly everyone they've ever known? Isn't it better to accept their feelings as valid and important, just maybe not how you feel or see things?

Racism is a big deal, too! Which has caused a huge amount of people, pretty much everyone in the world, problems! But racial identity is a very important part of, say, people of racial minorities, and to be all "wouldn't it be great if the idea of race just didn't exist!!" seems a bit of an empty, shallow, pretty privileged statement. Sure, those problems wouldn't have happened, but racial identity is really really important to all of those people and even if they agree that the colour of your skin shouldn't impact how you're treated by other people in a general sense, we live in this world and it might seem to them that you're just dismissing a sense of self that they feel very strongly. Does that make sense? I am nooot so great at the wording things thing.

Effercon said:

1) I use they/their/them as gender-neutral pronouns - I think that the coined ones sound far too fake, and, quite frankly, slightly degrading to non-cisgenders.

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I think that they don't, and I happen to not be cisgender! Why do they sound degrading to you? What about avoiding ambiguity, where using they/their/them sounds like the person described has a gender unknown to the speaker, when really they just don't use gendered pronouns! Surely it's more ~degrading~ to be referred to something you either entirely resist or with the 'other' pronoun?

ultraviolet, great topic! Sometimes I wonder whether a few scant announcements along the lines of "please don't do this, it's kind of horrible" really are the best way to educate and help members who aren't completely on top of things like this! Especially ones who maybe aren't sure but don't want a bunch of people jumping on them, because if you aren't sure but genuinely interested in learning, it's sometimes hard to get across your sincerity!

Some tips for discussing here: don't suppose things, maybe don't dismiss tools like alternative pronouns out-of-hand. Most queer or genderqueer people are perfectly fine with questions (otherwise how would discussions like this work?), but you can be both curious and polite.

I agree with Butterfree. Cisgender male. I... really don't care. I have a penis. Yay. I rather keep myself busy with useful things.

Cirrus said:

That's cool for you, but being cisgender yourself, can you not see how saying things like this might be upsetting for a non-cisgender person, or indeed maybe even a cisgender person?

For some people, gender very much does feel like something innate and powerful and important to them, and it's not unfair to just dismiss that because of how you feel. Even if gender is purely a societal construct, which I would when pushed perhaps agree with, that doesn't detract from its importance or validity, really.

For me personally, I've called myself female and used female pronouns all my life, and I have a very deep interest in women's rights, and also have female genitalia, but I've accepted that gender is not important to me whatsoever and is something I very rarely feel any connection to at all - and, indeed, being gendered makes me feel very uncomfortable. That doesn't mean that for other people, being called 'female' and 'she' and feeling wholly like a woman aren't important things.

If everyone just saw how they feel about things as how they feel, I think that would be pretty useful. I mean, isn't it kind of unfair to be all "I wish gender could just disappear! That'd be a great world!" when gender is very important to lots of people, and may be an immensely important part of their life? What about the trans people you know who struggle with not being perceived as how they are and this important thing that they feel being dismissed by nearly everyone they've ever known? Isn't it better to accept their feelings as valid and important, just maybe not how you feel or see things?

Racism is a big deal, too! Which has caused a huge amount of people, pretty much everyone in the world, problems! But racial identity is a very important part of, say, people of racial minorities, and to be all "wouldn't it be great if the idea of race just didn't exist!!" seems a bit of an empty, shallow, pretty privileged statement. Sure, those problems wouldn't have happened, but racial identity is really really important to all of those people and even if they agree that the colour of your skin shouldn't impact how you're treated by other people in a general sense, we live in this world and it might seem to them that you're just dismissing a sense of self that they feel very strongly. Does that make sense? I am nooot so great at the wording things thing.

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I'm well aware what world we live in and the fact that gender actually is an issue in it, and of course it is perfectly valid to be non-cisgender when the societal construct of gender does exist and actually affect how people look at and think of themselves and others.

But this does not change that if there were no societal construct of gender in the first place, transgender people wouldn't need to have a special gender identity to be perceived as how they are. If what we today call 'feminine' is what people want to be, they would be able to be that way without it ever crossing anyone's mind to question it or expect it to correlate to their biological sex. I will be thoroughly puzzled if any transgender person would honestly not consider this a good thing. (Do argue your position if that's the case, though! I'd find it interesting.)

Having thoughts about what the ideal world ought to be like does not equal mixing it up with the real world. I was explaining my own (lack of) gender identity, and a vital part of that explanation is how I view the concept of gender in general, including, yes, that ideally it shouldn't exist. That doesn't mean I'm dismissing gender issues in the real world, where gender does exist; non-cisgender people really are suffering and the fact somewhere in my head there's an ideal world where they don't have to suffer because gender doesn't exist of course doesn't magically fix that or make these issues less important in the real world.

I like to use "they" as a gender-neutral word.
All the other ones sound stupid and I don't use it, though, except for "xir" and "xe," but that's just 'cause I use it on a RP where xe is an alien with no human genders (ie he/she/they/ect.)


EDIT: Wow, epic-ly ninja'd

Effercon said:

1) I use they/their/them as gender-neutral pronouns - I think that the coined ones sound far too fake, and, quite frankly, slightly degrading to non-cisgenders.

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Legendaryseeker99 said:

I like to use "they" as a gender-neutral word.
All the other ones sound stupid and I don't use it, though, except for "xir" and "xe," but that's just 'cause I use it on a RP where xe is an alien with no human genders (ie he/she/they/ect.)

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Wait, are you guys saying that you'd use 'they' by default, or that you wouldn't use other pronouns if someone asked you to? I can understand not referring to someone you don't know as ey when you can just use they, but it seems kind of horrible to refuse to use a pronoun if someone asks for it!

ultraviolet said:

• If you're not cisgender, what does that feel like? If you are cisgender, what's your understanding of what that feels like?

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it is a huge pain in the arse right now.
most of my family will not refer to me by my legal name (I changed it exactly 6 months ago), I pretty much out myself every time I go for a job interview because my GCSEs and A-levels have my old name on them, /everywhere/ I go I worry about passing, nobody ever believes me when I tell them my age and to top it all off I am stuck in this piece of shit body I hate and I cannot do jack shit about it until I am either employed or in education, both of which I have been TRYING TO GET INTO for nearly 8 months. the best I've been able to get is a job that lasted a week.
see, my clinic discharged me in May, and they told me that I cannot start the "real life experience" until I'm living full time as male, i.e. everyone in my life refers to me as such, I'm getting help for my anxiety problems which I am now and until I'm in school or work. 3 months into the real life experience I can get hormones.

so yeah. it's pretty shit. it shall all be worth it in the end though.

ultraviolet said:

• What are your thoughts on alternate pronouns? Have you used any? Have you had difficulties? How do you feel about gender-neutral pronouns such as they/their/them, ey/eir/em or zhe/zhir/zhim?

Click to expand...

how the hell do you even pronounce most of these
I myself wouldn't ever use them but if someone likes to go by any I will respect that and use whatever pronouns they want.

ultraviolet said:

• Transgender people who identify as trans* or otherwise genderqueer basically feel uncomfortable with their sex versus their gender, or with gender roles associated with their sex.

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wait
what
a hell of a lot of people reject the gender roles associated with their sex, but surely that doesn't make them genderqueer?? I thought genderqueer was identifying as a gender outside the binary

I agree with Butterfree in that I think an ideal world would not include gender, but that only works if gender never existed to begin with. In the real world, gender does exist, and we can't go about trying to get rid of it as any sort of solution.

Furthermore, though, I don't understand the concept of being gendered. If gender is purely a social construct - and despite having taken a course which tried to argue that gender was fundamentally biological, I think it is - then surely it is based on traditional gender roles. I don't understand what it means to be male or female outside of the context of gender roles, but because I don't hold with the idea of gender roles, I'm left with the feeling that gender doesn't really mean anything. I've never 'felt male'; I use male pronouns, because that's how I grew up, and they don't make me feel any more or less comfortable than any other pronouns.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, if you think that gender is a product of society, but reject the concept of gender roles, then what do you think gender is based on? What does being male or female mean to you? I imagine it can't be easy to describe, but I'd appreciate it if someone tried.

ETA: And another thing: where does the clear distinction between male/female (sexes) and man/woman (genders) come from? I've never seen it outside this forum, and I've just asked my (social anthropologist) sister about it, and she was confused too.

opaltiger said:

Furthermore, though, I don't understand the concept of being gendered. If gender is purely a social construct - and despite having taken a course which tried to argue that gender was fundamentally biological, I think it is - then surely it is based on traditional gender roles. I don't understand what it means to be male or female outside of the context of gender roles, but because I don't hold with the idea of gender roles, I'm left with the feeling that gender doesn't really mean anything. I've never 'felt male'; I use male pronouns, because that's how I grew up, and they don't make me feel any more or less comfortable than any other pronouns.

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Honestly, I don't care if it's a societal thing or a biological thing. I don't really get how that's like, important, at all. It's sort of a matter of - that's just explaining how it happens, rather than a necessary part of understanding the situation. And since I have no need to know how it happens because, hey, it happens regardless, well.

But. I don't really believe you guys go by your chosen pronouns because 'that's how you grew up'. Really? You are not the sort of people that just go with what you grew up doing because that's how you grew up. If you disagree with it, why do you do it? Honestly, it seems to me that you do prefer your chosen pronouns, at least to a certain extent, otherwise you would protest a bit more.

As for gender roles; come on. Really. This is just, really tiring. I mean, it really is. I don't understand why it's so hard to differentiate between identity and gender roles. Especially when you're surrounded by a bunch of people who defy those gender roles? I just, I don't get it.

Gender is just what you feel you are. It's a marker for yourself. I am this. I am not that. It does not mean I can't do laundry or something. It just means I am this. It's like a name. If you were assigned a name at birth and you hate it, you would want to change it. You'd feel pretty crap with that old, terrible name that you hate until you got to change it.

ETA: And another thing: where does the clear distinction between male/female (sexes) and man/woman (genders) come from? I've never seen it outside this forum, and I've just asked my (social anthropologist) sister about it, and she was confused too.

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Honestly, I'm not sure where that one came from. It actually sort of bugs me because it feels like it's separating cis from trans people. I mean, I know it's the case that it is separated, but I tend to just, ignore it, because it bugs me.

Pathos said:

Honestly, I don't care if it's a societal thing or a biological thing. I don't really get how that's like, important, at all. It's sort of a matter of - that's just explaining how it happens, rather than a necessary part of understanding the situation. And since I have no need to know how it happens because, hey, it happens regardless, well.

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You don't think explaining how it happens is important?

But. I don't really believe you guys go by your chosen pronouns because 'that's how you grew up'. Really? You are not the sort of people that just go with what you grew up doing because that's how you grew up. If you disagree with it, why do you do it? Honestly, it seems to me that you do prefer your chosen pronouns, at least to a certain extent, otherwise you would protest a bit more.

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Why? I don't care either way. I don't disagree with it, I just don't feel particularly attached to it either. Why would I go through the trouble of changing my pronouns, getting everyone I know used to it, possibly making complications in personal documents... for something that I don't care for any more or less than what I already have?

As for gender roles; come on. Really. This is just, really tiring. I mean, it really is. I don't understand why it's so hard to differentiate between identity and gender roles. Especially when you're surrounded by a bunch of people who defy those gender roles? I just, I don't get it.

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Please read what I actually said. I said that if the origins of gender are in society, then they must, in part, reflect the gender roles within that society. I know gender identity is not the same as gender roles. I want to know why. What other element is it that sets them apart?

Gender is just what you feel you are. It's a marker for yourself. I am this. I am not that. It does not mean I can't do laundry or something. It just means I am this. It's like a name. If you were assigned a name at birth and you hate it, you would want to change it. You'd feel pretty crap with that old, terrible name that you hate until you got to change it.

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See, that's what I wanted to know. I guess I just don't feel that way about gender. I've never felt particularly strongly about being male. I know it's difficult for me, since I am (for lack of a better word) cisgender, and it would be difficult to imagine not being comfortable with my gender. But I spent about two years of my life being mistaken for a girl in virtually every social interaction, and I didn't mind, so I just don't think gender matters to me.

This topic is getting off to an interesting start, and something I've been meaning to address (mostly for myself)!

Which is to say, reconciling one's knowledge that the concept of gender is kind of silly and sometimes hurtful with one's knowledge that one does have a gender.

I'm coming into this conversation as a male trans (and that's another minipoint I'd like to make while I'm here -- when I list my gender identity I've come to realize that being trans is actually part of mine, but it doesn't take priority over my being male... hm! if anyone else has encountered this in their experience, share?) person who has spent a lot of his life living as female and doing a good number of stereotypically female things. Just listing this in case we want to compare/contrast experiences.

Anyway, my gut reaction to figuring out I was trans (which was... gosh, almost four years ago! I was sixteen and home sick from school and spending time pressing the random button on wikipedia. Yes best ever.) was to do a lot of researching into the experience of being trans and gender and all of that fun stuff. So I like to think I've kind of got it figured out, you know, we're not looking at people as members of one gender or the other or the other, we're looking at them as people and gender is sort of an irrelevant concept anymore. Which we've all said here! It really is. I mean, how important is it in the long run that we're male or female or anything else? It's not.

And yet.

I feel this really heavy -- and completely inexplicable -- attachment towards my male identity. I know for certain I am male; there is literally no moment where I waver about this, and it's important for me that my gender identity is recognized. And I've come to terms with this! I know that my gender is pretty important to me, personally, and that I have to address that.

But this comes into serious conflict a lot with my idea of gender as unimportant as a whole.

Like, I'll beat myself up about why am I so concerned with whether I'm male or female or whatever, it's not a big deal, it's more important who I am as a person... but at the same time I know it is a big deal, and that it's very important. Can something be both important and irrelevant all at once? Hrm.

I guess I just thought I'd add that in???

Effercon said:

1) I use they/their/them as gender-neutral pronouns - I think that the coined ones sound far too fake, and, quite frankly, slightly degrading to non-cisgenders.

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What? This doesn't make sense to me. What exactly is degrading about referring to someone with the pronoun they ask to be referred to with? It's not like you're supposed to use alternative pronouns for everyone trans.


I still go :3 every time someone pays attention to what I have in the pronoun field.

Hi!

I don't really feel like I have a specific gender! I'm not a boy or a girl, and I'm not agendered (it's really frustrating that there's the idea that if I'm not a boy or a girl, I have to be agendered, but I'm just not), but I'm also kind of all of those? I don't feel the exact same way all the time, sometimes I feel like more in particular of one or two of those, or more like none of those, or anything. I don't like using a particular word like "genderqueer" because even if a word is kind of defined so that it seems right, that doesn't mean everyone ever defines or understands it exactly the same way. Also, "genderqueer" seems to have some pretty specific ideas surrounding it already, and I don't feel like I identify in particular with any of those exact ideas, so it makes more sense and is more accurate to just say I identify as myself! And that feels better anyway because "myself" can be whatever I feel like and doesn't rely on being a defined thing, and really what I'm really uncomfortable with is being stuck into a box. It doesn't really matter what the box is named or how well-intentioned it is, it just feels bad! I don't mind any pronouns in particular (except I don't want to be called "it") as long as I feel like it would be okay to go "um! by the way I'm not that pronoun" and the person wouldn't go "yes you are stop being weird!!!"! Like, it doesn't matter how successful the person would be at using a different set of pronouns, or even if they agree to use them, really, just as long as it doesn't feel like a trap. In real life being referred to as specific pronouns feels really sharp and mean because there's nothing I can do about it and it feels like if I ever tried to explain to someone, then I'd just get yelled at and even more boxed in! It was kind of strange for a while when I started getting called the same pronouns in the tcod community, because it didn't and doesn't feel sharp or mean or scary, and I thought that was just the way it felt always!

Alternate pronouns are super-great! I really really like the idea that it's okay for anyone to use anything they want for themselves, and then they'll be comfortable and happy! Lots of people feel like they're stuck using "he" or "she" because it feels like no one would understand or comply with anything else, even if there's another set they'd like a lot better - or maybe they don't know any set they'd like better, just that "he" and "she" don't feel exactly right! Also, I like the idea that people could just make up pronouns as long as they're reasonable? Re/rer/rem, ke/kir/kirs, ce/cer/ces, anything that's similar to that would be just as easy to adopt as anything else new. I've experimented with doing that some since getting used to a couple of sets of alternate pronouns in the first place, and it really seems fairly easy - or at least not more difficult. It's totally understandable for people to get confused about which pronouns to use if that were a big thing, but it's understandable even with only two or three pronoun sets, and I think most people would be fine with mistakes as long as the others are understanding about it and trying? And! Another thing I really like about getting used to non-standard pronouns is that it makes you think a lot more carefully about which pronouns you're using for someone! If you just have "he" and "she", then that seems like it would be simpler, but then it's really easy to call someone the wrong one on accident, or to suddenly assume someone uses a pronoun when ey doesn't. And it's kind of difficult to just not do that even if you know it makes people uncomfortable and you really don't want to make people uncomfortable. I'm sure you can get used to being really careful otherwise, but it's just easier with strange pronouns because you have to think about how they go until you get used to them! (also it's way less difficult than it looks like! It's not impossible, you just have to practice!)

Regarding gender roles and things, someone suggested to me that stereo-typing can be okay in some cases? Her example was Christmas presents for strange kids, and she said that if you base your toy choice for em on a stereo-type, you're more likely to give a present the kid would like than if you picked the oppositely marketed toy? That still bothers me and I want stereo-types to just not exist at all, but what do you think of ideas like that?

Also I talked with the same person about labels the other day and she basically said that the general public doesn't need to know most of the words as long as they're okay with the thing! Like, the general public knowing that "pansexuality" is a thing isn't important, just them knowing it's okay for people loving whoever they want is important. And her other example was that it's not too important for people to understand what asexuality is because she says people are already accepting of a no-sex lifestyle like people are okay with nuns and monks and things! She said that trying to make the general public learn a bunch of labels and things will just confuse them and make them not want to learn about the thing! I don't really agree that people are generally accepting of celibacy, because there's all this bad stuff about how you're a "loser" or that something's wrong with you as a person or that no one likes you if you choose not to have sex, and lots of people are not okay with people loving whoever they love. But otherwise I think the idea of keeping things as simple as possible for most people is sound?

Kat said:

Honestly, how I see it all, is that we basically are the gender we identify with. If you want to be called a girl, then you are one, the same with a boy.

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The same with other genders, too, right?

Effercon said:

1) I use they/their/them as gender-neutral pronouns - I think that the coined ones sound far too fake, and, quite frankly, slightly degrading to non-cisgenders.

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They sound a lot less "fake" if you start using them! Sometimes alternate pronouns still look kind of irregular in the middle of text, but it depends on which one it is, and also you can definitely get used to seeing and hearing them. They/their/them is inconvenient as a way to say "I don't know what pronouns this person uses" because it already exists as a different thing, and it still uses plurals to go with it, and if you're not careful your sentences can get really confusing (which is too bad since it's what some people are comfortable with!). Also, how on earth is it degrading? E(y)/eir/em is mostly just a way of being gender-neutral, which isn't degrading at all, sometimes you just don't know someone's pronouns yet or you're talking about a hypothetical person. And in general people choose to ask people to use alternate pronouns, it's not forced on them! If you mean it's degrading because calling trans* people gender-neutral instead of their preferred pronoun (when you know the preferred pronoun perfectly well) is not okay, I'm pretty sure no one is doing that (or if they are, that's absolutely not the fault of the pronoun and that shouldn't keep it from being used). And you definitely can't just stick with "he" and "she" because some people are neither of those!

Cirrus said:

If everyone just saw how they feel about things as how they feel, I think that would be pretty useful. I mean, isn't it kind of unfair to be all "I wish gender could just disappear! That'd be a great world!" when gender is very important to lots of people, and may be an immensely important part of their life? What about the trans people you know who struggle with not being perceived as how they are and this important thing that they feel being dismissed by nearly everyone they've ever known? Isn't it better to accept their feelings as valid and important, just maybe not how you feel or see things? [...] we live in this world and it might seem to them that you're just dismissing a sense of self that they feel very strongly. Does that make sense? I am nooot so great at the wording things thing.

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I think there's kind of a difference between someone saying "I wish this thing that hurts people just weren't a thing at all!" and someone having the choice to get rid of it and choosing to? Like! If it weren't a thing at all, it wouldn't be hurting people, so I think it's easy for someone to wish for it even if they know it's important for some people, or if they don't realize it's important for some people! Too, it wouldn't be important for those people if it had never ever existed!

But I think that makes sense and also I hadn't really thought about it from that point of view! For the people it's a big deal for, they'd be different if that part of them went away, and they wouldn't have all those experiences that are probably kind of important, too!

Especially ones who maybe aren't sure but don't want a bunch of people jumping on them, because if you aren't sure but genuinely interested in learning, it's sometimes hard to get across your sincerity!

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There are lots of times where I see people who look sincere to me when they're wondering about things, and they get attacked a lot when they try to ask questions and it makes me feel really really bad for them because they usually seem really friendly and curious! I think things would be a lot easier if the people who didn't understand had somewhere where they felt like they could go "um! I'm not trying to be hurtful I'm sorry if that's how it sounds but I was wondering..." I've seen people get jumped on for asking things even here even if they were nice about the ask. :(

Legendaryseeker99 said:

I like to use "they" as a gender-neutral word.
All the other ones sound stupid and I don't use it, though, except for "xir" and "xe," but that's just 'cause I use it on a RP where xe is an alien with no human genders (ie he/she/they/ect.)

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It's not really up to you whether or not they sound "stupid" and it's kind of not nice to say so because it's pretty important to some people! Also what do you do if someone wants another pronoun set that you think sounds "stupid"? It would be pretty no fair to say that everyone has to use every set of pronouns perfectly always, but don't you feel like it would be nice if you at least tried regardless of whether or not you like the pronoun? They're not as impossible as they seem like they would be so you should at least try some and see how it goes!

ultraviolet said:

Wait, are you guys saying that you'd use 'they' by default, or that you wouldn't use other pronouns if someone asked you to? I can understand not referring to someone you don't know as ey when you can just use they, but it seems kind of horrible to refuse to use a pronoun if someone asks for it!

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Sometimes a pronoun looks like it would be really difficult to use and I think people get kind of intimidated, especially if it's out loud! I think they should definitely try anyway, but I think most people refusing to use a pronoun just think it would be too hard and don't understand how using the wrong one can be uncomfortable or hurtful!

Jolty said:

wait
what
a hell of a lot of people reject the gender roles associated with their sex, but surely that doesn't make them genderqueer?? I thought genderqueer was identifying as a gender outside the binary

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Um! That's a sentence I helped with and I totally didn't mean for it to sound like it's saying "all trans* people are also genderqueer". I think how the word genderqueer is defined is kind of unclear, and the Wikipedia page about it has lots of things it can mean that don't necessarily mean outside of the binary, for instance it can mean someone who feels bi-gendered or gender-fluid. Also, I've seen "transgender" or "trans*" used to mean "boy/female or girl/male only", and also to mean "anyone who is not-cis"? Is there a consensus on what it should mean, exactly?

Even if they meant the same thing, it's understandable if you wouldn't want one of the words forced on you, though! How do you think it should be worded so that that doesn't bother people? Maybe just "or genderqueer" instead of "or otherwise"?

opaltiger said:

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, if you think that gender is a product of society, but reject the concept of gender roles, then what do you think gender is based on? What does being male or female mean to you? I imagine it can't be easy to describe, but I'd appreciate it if someone tried.

ETA: And another thing: where does the clear distinction between male/female (sexes) and man/woman (genders) come from? I've never seen it outside this forum, and I've just asked my (social anthropologist) sister about it, and she was confused too.

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Well, there needs to be some way to distinguish between "someone who feels like this" and "someone who has this chromosome" and it's harder to talk about and a lot harder to explain to people if you use "male/female" and "boy/girl" for both sex and gender! And doing it this way is kind of the easiest because there's already an understanding of what the words basically mean, so people can understand if you say something like "I'm male but a girl" and explain! If new words created instead, then people would have to tell everyone about the new words and it would be really hard! Too, some people feel like there's a distinction between feeling like a girl or a boy but being okay with their sex, and feeling like they should definitely have male or female parts, so it's kind of hard to explain that otherwise! Do you think there's a better way to talk about it, and if there is what do you suppose it would be like?

Also! A thing for me was that I realized I felt really bad about what people were referring to me as and thinking about me based on my sex, so I tried to have people on the Internet refer to me the "opposite" way! Except when I actually got to be referred to that way and people started making assumptions and boxing based on that, too, I realized that that felt about the same! I think it's similar and part of the feeling for some other people, like, maybe part of it is that people feel like rejecting the assigned one? And then the not-assigned one would feel more like a choice so that could feel a lot better even if with no gender roles or stereo-types or anything someone might never think about being not-cisgendered! I don't mean to say that people are wrong about their gender or only feeling that way because of society, but that could be a factor for some people!

Pathos said:

But. I don't really believe you guys go by your chosen pronouns because 'that's how you grew up'. Really? You are not the sort of people that just go with what you grew up doing because that's how you grew up. If you disagree with it, why do you do it? Honestly, it seems to me that you do prefer your chosen pronouns, at least to a certain extent, otherwise you would protest a bit more.

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Why can't you believe that someone would do that? If someone feels like which pronoun you use for em is honestly arbitrary and ey feels no difference whatsoever, there's really no reason for em to change it, is there? If there's nothing about the pronoun you grew up with that makes you uncomfortable in any way, what is there to protest about? Ey may as well stick with one ey's already accustomed to!

For your name analogy, someone might not be totally in love with eir name and feel like it's the best name ey could ever have, it might just be an okay name! It's kind of tough to change your name and to get other people to call you it, so if ey doesn't feel any particular resentment toward the name and doesn't really have a new name in mind, why not just use the one ey already has?

Honestly, I'm not sure where that one came from. It actually sort of bugs me because it feels like it's separating cis from trans people. I mean, I know it's the case that it is separated, but I tend to just, ignore it, because it bugs me.

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What do you mean by separating? It seems like ideally there isn't too much difference between saying someone is for instance female/girl/cis or female/boy/trans*?

Also, I've seen "transgender" or "trans*" used to mean "boy/female or girl/male only", and also to mean "anyone who is not-cis"? Is there a consensus on what it should mean, exactly?

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I've never seen it as "anyone who is not-cis". o.o Simply from etymology, if you're cis your sex should match your gender and if you're trans your sex should be the opposite of your gender. Since there are (to the first approximation) only two sexes, that kind of excludes non-binary identities by definition.

ETA: Okay, Cirrus informs me transgender is used more generally by some people. I think that's silly, because a) it's redundant and b) there is a meaningful distinction between "I am in the gender binary and my gender doesn't match my sex" and "I am outside the gender binary and my gender doesn't match my sex". The former is covered by the term transgender, the latter isn't, in my opinion.

I am me, that's it.

I find this entire thing confusing and pointless. I understand people wanting to be addressed... properly, but sometimes this whole discussion is just insane. Maybe there wouldn't be so much confusion if people JUST MADE IT SIMPLE? Serious, you may think it makes sense, but to others outside you're speaking gibberish. At least that's all I understand. Ok, you have a penis, that means your male. That's it. How you feel is how you feel. If you're a man who identifies as a women, that's great, then I will identify you however you want me to.

Serious, the only trans person I know is/was a guy named John, now Jenny, and you know what she's an amazing person, and I knew her before she became Jenny. I talked to her about this whole gender/sex thing. She was just as confused.

If you want people to use the right terminology then make it simple to understand, and remember not everyone is you. Also people are way to touchy about this. I understand being frustrated, but venting out a two page rant is over doing it... just a little. If they being 'politically incorrect' then tell them that RESPECTFULLY. No insults about mothers.

aaa

opaltiger said:

You don't think explaining how it happens is important?

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It is important, but itsn't relevant so much in discussions like this when the answer doesn't bring anything.

Why? I don't care either way. I don't disagree with it, I just don't feel particularly attached to it either. Why would I go through the trouble of changing my pronouns, getting everyone I know used to it, possibly making complications in personal documents... for something that I don't care for any more or less than what I already have?

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Okay - I was more saying, 'because you grew up with it' is a sort of ridiculous reason, especially for you. Because you don't care is a different reason.

Please read what I actually said. I said that if the origins of gender are in society, then they must, in part, reflect the gender roles within that society. I know gender identity is not the same as gender roles. I want to know why. What other element is it that sets them apart?

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Actually you said this: "I don't understand what it means to be male or female outside of the context of gender roles, but because I don't hold with the idea of gender roles, I'm left with the feeling that gender doesn't really mean anything."

Meaning you cannot separate the two and because you do not believe in gender roles then you are left balking at gender in general. That isn't exactly what you're saying now.

I don't understand why gender identity and gender roles have to be interconnected. Gender identity would be tied to sex. Connection to gender roles is societal; gender identity is just, it's just who you are. Honestly, if we got rid of gender roles, we'd still have gender because we still have bodies.

Why can't you believe that someone would do that? If someone feels like which pronoun you use for em is honestly arbitrary and ey feels no difference whatsoever, there's really no reason for em to change it, is there? If there's nothing about the pronoun you grew up with that makes you uncomfortable in any way, what is there to protest about? Ey may as well stick with one ey's already accustomed to!

For your name analogy, someone might not be totally in love with eir name and feel like it's the best name ey could ever have, it might just be an okay name! It's kind of tough to change your name and to get other people to call you it, so if ey doesn't feel any particular resentment toward the name and doesn't really have a new name in mind, why not just use the one ey already has?

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Nooo. I don't believe in the reason given. Because they grew up with it. If it's because they don't feel uncomfortable with it, fine. If they don't want to go through the hassle, fine. All of those together, sure. But because they grew up with it is always a copout.

What do you mean by separating? It seems like ideally there isn't too much difference between saying someone is for instance female/girl/cis or female/boy/trans*?

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I mean - female/male is cis only. That makes me feel uncomfortable, like, why...? For example my therapist asked me my gender once and I said male and she said male is cis-only. And I'm like ... what, what is the point of that. It's just, seems like a way of separating the two that doesn't have to exist.

Phantom said:

I am me, that's it.

I find this entire thing confusing and pointless. I understand people wanting to be addressed... properly, but sometimes this whole discussion is just insane. Maybe there wouldn't be so much confusion if people JUST MADE IT SIMPLE? Serious, you may think it makes sense, but to others outside you're speaking gibberish. At least that's all I understand. Ok, you have a penis, that means your male. That's it. How you feel is how you feel. If you're a man who identifies as a women, that's great, then I will identify you however you want me to.

Serious, the only trans person I know is/was a guy named John, now Jenny, and you know what she's an amazing person, and I knew her before she became Jenny. I talked to her about this whole gender/sex thing. She was just as confused.

If you want people to use the right terminology then make it simple to understand, and remember not everyone is you. Also people are way to touchy about this. I understand being frustrated, but venting out a two page rant is over doing it... just a little. If they being 'politically incorrect' then tell them that RESPECTFULLY. No insults about mothers.

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You realize these debates don't exist for you. Right? Everyone else seems to understand it. As you say, remember not everyone is you.

Pathos said:

You realize these debates don't exist for you. Right? Everyone else seems to understand it. As you say, remember not everyone is you.

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You did read my post right? From what I am getting from your comment you seem to think my post was self centered. It's not... entirely.

I was simply saying confusion and debates need not happen if the terminology and reasoning were simple.

EDIT: I took offense from that "for you". What you're doing is assuming. I hate that. You saw a bunch of 'I's in a post and assumed the meaning without really reading the post. I, in fact, understand everything that is being said here. I was being sarcastic in my post and trying to explain it from a personal point of view, which is what I can best dictate.

The thing is for this argument I find the whole 'cisgender' thing derogatory toward none trans people.


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