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Circumcision. Religious freedom or inhumane torture?

Wargle

Wargle

Dirty minds think alike~
Following a few incidents, like a court in Cologne, Germany bans newborn circumcision without consent of the child, San Francisco votes on whether to ban the procedure for anyone under 18, and Colorado decides to save money by leaving circumcision, well, cut off from Medicaid, there is a a massive religious outrage, as several religions mandate newborn circumcision.

Should it be the right of the child when he's old enough to decide? Should it be funded by the state? Should it be outlawed all together? Should doctors be responsible if something goes wrong?

Discuss.
 
I gotta say, I don't really understand the reasoning behind it to begin with (is it because it looks gross?* Why are you looking at your child's penis? okay, seriously though), but I think it should be a consensual thing for sure. I only wonder how many people would actually still get it done if they have to wait until a time they'll actually be able to remember how much it hurts, though. Or are there ways to get it done now so that it doesn't?

*edit: I don't think it looks gross but some people do. sorry if I offended anyone
 
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Germany has it right. If people don't want their foreskin they can decide that when they are old enough and get it done properly using the correct anesthetics and stuff (I'm not a doctor, so I don't care what the exact procedure is - I leave that to the doctors).

PS: That's male circumcision, by the way. Female circumcision I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
 
Tradition doesn't provide sufficient justification for allowing people to perform unnecessary surgery on people without getting consent.
 
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Religious freedom means being allowed to practice your own religion to your heart's desire as long as you're not harming anyone else. The fact the person being harmed is their own child and is too young to understand and object to it should not change that.
 
Alraune said:
I gotta say, I don't really understand the reasoning behind it to begin with (is it because it looks gross? Why are you looking at your child's penis? okay, seriously though), but I think it should be a consensual thing for sure. I only wonder how many people would actually still get it done if they have to wait until a time they'll actually be able to remember how much it hurts, though. Or are there ways to get it done now so that it doesn't?
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I'm pretty sure there is a gaping lack of logic in all (or at least, most) religions and trying to make sense of it will only do you harm. The basics are that Avraham was swallowed by a snake up to his genitals and he took from this (after he escaped the snake) that all penises must be circumcised. Iirc.
 
The basis, at least in Judaism, is that God made a covenant with Abraham with it as its requirement.
Genesis 17:7 said:
And G-d said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep Mycovenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that should shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.
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I've been told that it's actually healthier somehow in the long run, however.
 
Birdy said:
The basis, at least in Judaism, is that God made a covenant with Abraham with it as its requirement.

I've been told that it's actually healthier somehow in the long run, however.
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Yeah, I've heard that too. But that could just be attempted justification or something. *shrugs*

My immediate thought was "well it would be pretty painful if done when the kid is old enough to recognize the pain of part of his penis getting cut off" before I remembered anesthetics exist, oops. In answer to the actual question though, yeah, let the kid decide.
 
Birdy said:
I've been told that it's actually healthier somehow in the long run, however.
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I'm pretty sure that that's only in relation to the fact that removal of the foreskin prevents infections of the foreskin, in much the same way that removing a child's appendix would prevent appendicitis.
 
... said:
I've heard that it's easier to have an erection when you're circumcised. No idea how true this is.
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All circumcision does is remove the foreskin, which is unrelated to the part of the penis that goes into erecting the thing. It's all about bloodflow, which starts off at the base and not the top; the foreskin doesn't even reach the base.

It really kind of scares me how long it took me to even realize that I had been circumcised! They never said a thing about it in any of my health class things, and I had to learn the word from the internet! It's ridiculous that I was about twelve before I had any idea that a part of my body was missing.

Music Dragon said:
I've heard good things sometimes happen when you fuse Kinstones.
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Music Dragon, that was the best.
 
Honestly it really confuses me how people who aren't Jewish or Muslim or is there another culture that circumcises??? but people who aren't circumcise their babies? There just isn't even a flawed reason there, it's just, what?
 
It's my understanding that there was this whole renaissance about 'cleanliness' around the 1950s, 1960s? It's sort of the standard in America, to the point where a lot of people get all blindly prejudiced against uncircumcised penises. Doctors roll out the 'it's healthier' thing, and people who have been raised from birth to think 'penis=circumcised penis' just go with it.
 
pathos said:
Honestly it really confuses me how people who aren't Jewish or Muslim or is there another culture that circumcises??? but people who aren't circumcise their babies? There just isn't even a flawed reason there, it's just, what?
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my boyfriend is circumcised, he isn't jewish or muslim (and neither of his parents). they aren't a culture that believes in that. they just. did? idk i didn't ask. and it wasn't until i brought up circumcision once over the phone that my boyfriend realized it was even a thing and that he'd been circumcised.

not that that helps much but um.

since he was circumcised and like i said didn't know it was a thing i'm kind of biased in a way, like "who really cares whether people circumcise or not the kid's too young to care anyway" but i know that that logic isn't exactly flawless.
 
I'm very much in favour of passing laws to ensure the bodily integrity of kids. If it's for medical reasons, that's an unfortunate fact of life, but if it's not necessary, then leave it for the kid to decide when he's old enough. There's a guy I know who's fanatical about defending infantile circumcision and it drives me up the wall, especially when he claims that circumcision helps to prevent penile cancer and then completely ignores the fact that more children are killed every year in botched circumcisions than man are killed by penile cancer, which is even more infuriating given that he's psychotically anti-choice when it comes to abortion, but doesn't seem to care about these children who die needlessly after being born fit and healthy.
 
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