Religion and Lack of Religion

[bulbasaur]

A possible foreshadowing, perhaps?

 

[Music Dragon]

I'm going to withdraw out of this (I've changed my attitude) because Phantom made a very good point in his second post.

Please note though: The two stories of creation are compatible if you look at the second in non-chronological order; I don't smoke; the Bible does tell a mostly-consistent story; the "us" in Phantom's first verse is referring to the Trinity; see this page (especially 4 and 10) for recently-fulfilled prophecies; any religious text verifies a hypothesis (the doctrine of its religion), not itself; what is CCC2125?; there are dozens of versions of the Bible out of necessity, because each translation does not touch the heart of everyone; ascended in John 3:13 means, by one's own power where Elijah (and Enoch) were taken up to heaven; I suppose that there was a period of time between when Pilate gave the death order and when Jesus was actually crucified, which happens to be 21 hours; you should do good for the glory of God, while alms should be secret because if you're dumping massive amounts of money in public, you're just glorifying yourself; Jesus is using hyperbole when he says, "when thout prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou hast shut thy door, pray", while Paul encouraged prayer whenever, even in public, but not "showing off" to others as "Lifting up your holy hands" is a metaphor; I'd like to see some links which back Phantom up (for the first part of his post); I don't see how the Holocaust is a religious war; there is evidence to back most religions up (it's a matter of the amount of and the quality of evidence, as you pointed out); when Newton first formulated his theory of gravity, he had to give evidence of it - he might have said that gravity not existing was "cock-and-bull" but in the end, he was the one who had to provide evidence for gravity; how did "indoctrination" derail my argument?

I'm sorry that you have no option to "unconfirm" or anything, Phantom. Have you talked to your minister about it (or made him do CCC2125)?

It's really annoying when people put forward arguments they have no intention of sticking around to defend. If you're going to "withdraw", just do it, without the "please note though"; if you're not going to continue the discussion, then the unreadable block of text in the middle of your post is a waste.

 

[Phantom]

I'm going to withdraw out of this (I've changed my attitude) because Phantom made a very good point in his second post.

I am a 'she' first of all. Second, I am going to respond to the best of my ability, but I am on a cellphone so bear with me please...

"Please note though: The two stories of creation are compatible if you look at the second in non-chronological order; I don't smoke; the Bible does tell a mostly-consistent story; the "us" in Phantom's first verse is referring to the Trinity; see this page (especially 4 and 10) for recently-fulfilled prophecies; any religious text verifies a hypothesis (the doctrine of its religion), not itself;"

Uh I can safely say, Uh.... no. The Trinity is a recent "creation" (or at least as recent asfar as the church is concerned) also there are denominations of Chirstianity that deny the Trinity, how do they feel about it?


" what is CCC2125?;"

It is an segment taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as I already said in the post. Please at least bother to Google something before questioning it.



" there are dozens of versions of the Bible out of necessity, because each translation does not touch the heart of everyone; "
The fly in the soup here is, wouldn't god want his worshipers united?

The other is that the Bible is supossedly written by god, how can there be different versions that were plainly written by men that still claim to be written by god?


ascended in John 3:13 means, by one's own power where Elijah (and Enoch) were taken up to heaven; I suppose that there was a period of time between when Pilate gave the death order and when Jesus was actually crucified, which happens to be 21 hours; "

Wow I didn't know we were talking to someone who was there! /sarcasm.

Also about ascention, uh ok , yeah pretty sure that you should rethink that.



"you should do good for the glory of God, while alms should be secret because if you're dumping massive amounts of money in public, you're just glorifying yourself; Jesus is using hyperbole when he says, "when thout prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou hast shut thy door, pray", while Paul encouraged prayer whenever, even in public, but not "showing off" to others as "Lifting up your holy hands" is a metaphor; "

Saying something was a hyperbole is entirely heresay, and derails your point.

"I'd like to see some links which back Phantom up (for the first part of his post);"

Or you could.... uh.... google the Gospels?

" I don't see how the Holocaust is a religious war; "

Lol wut? It wasnt a 'war', maybe.......

"how did "indoctrination" derail my argument?"

Because itj is a prime example of blind faith and forcing someone to believe. Research is your friend.

"I'm sorry that you have no option to "unconfirm" or anything, Phantom. Have you talked to your minister about it (or made him do CCC2125)?"

Do CCC2125? Seriously. Did you even read or research ANYTHING? That's like saying did I do the second amendment or something lol.

No you have to be excommunicated. And it's 'priest' not minister.

Maybe someone can better support what I said earlier.... damn me not having a computer.

 

[Cerberus87]

To all religious people, I tell you...

"Do not mistake coincidence for fate." (Mr. Eko, LOST)

 

[Datura]

To add to the ex-communication point: I, like Phantom, was pretty much forced into the "sacrament" of Confirmation. I am a registered member of the Catholic Church.

What does this mean? It means that they can use my membership, and the membership of every registered Catholic, for political leverage. My membership indirectly fuels discriminatory laws that range from denying myself the right to marry another man to de-funding programs that promote women's health and wellness. It means that they can solicit me for money. It means that I'm on their mailing list, so I'm sent things like DVDs telling me that same-sex marriage, which I hope to partake in one day, is sinful and should never be made legal. It means I belong to a group that actively protects child rapists, that wishes to deny contraception to nations in Africa that desperately need it, that advocates intolerance toward people of other faiths (or no faith at all).

And I cannot do anything about it. Attempts have been made to peacefully ex-communicate oneself from the Catholic Church, but they are generally unsuccessful. The Catholic Church stands by its "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" motto, and they hold your spiritual identity hostage. The only sure-fire way to have yourself removed from the church is to assault the Pope, which is certainly easier said than done.

I will be writing letters to the bishop whose diocese I am registered with, as well as the bishop whose diocese I was baptized in, formally requesting ex-communication on the grounds of ideological differences and general disgust with the church. I'm not holding my breath, but I must try, because the Catholic Church sickens me more and more every day.

If you have to force people to remain registered members, what does that say about your church (and your religion)?

 

[bulbasaur]

I am a 'she' first of all.

I'm very sorry; it won't happen again.

Second, I am going to respond to the best of my ability, but I am on a cellphone so bear with me please...
[...]
Uh I can safely say, Uh.... no. The Trinity is a recent "creation" (or at least as recent asfar as the church is concerned) also there are denominations of Chirstianity that deny the Trinity, how do they feel about it?"

I can't speak for them, sorry. But I can answer with John 10:30 ("I and my Father are one") and this link: http://www.evidencetobelieve.net/the_holy_trinity.htm (scroll most of the way down or search for "The Early Church")

It is an segment taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as I already said in the post. Please at least bother to Google something before questioning it.

Sorry.

The fly in the soup here is, wouldn't god want his worshipers united?

Yes. But let's face it, not everybody here knows Hebrew, Greek, or even relatively modern KJV English.

The other is that the Bible is supossedly written by god, how can there be different versions that were plainly written by men that still claim to be written by god?

They're translations. See above.

"Wow I didn't know we were talking to someone who was there! /sarcasm."
Deduction, Phantom.

"Also about ascention, uh ok , yeah pretty sure that you should rethink that."
Hmm?

Saying something was a hyperbole is entirely heresay, and derails your point.

There's verses that surround it that also use hyperbole obviously (Matthew 6:2 and 3) so it's not exactly heresy.

"Or you could.... uh.... google the Gospels?"

That doesn't explain "There is also evidence of lots of civilisations being older than Noah's flood."

"Lol wut? It wasnt a 'war', maybe......."

It was spurred by race, not religion, right...?

Do CCC2125? Seriously. Did you even read or research ANYTHING? That's like saying did I do the second amendment or something lol.

No you have to be excommunicated. And it's 'priest' not minister.

Maybe someone can better support what I said earlier.... damn me not having a computer.

Sorry, but Google gave me a bunch of links to stock photo sites and a shop when I searched it up.
Anyway, thank you Phantom and Datura for your insight into the Catholic church.

It's really annoying when people put forward arguments they have no intention of sticking around to defend. If you're going to "withdraw", just do it, without the "please note though"; if you're not going to continue the discussion, then the unreadable block of text in the middle of your post is a waste.

I do intend to defend the middle part, perhaps learn a bit. I do not further intend to assert that Christianity is plausible.

 

[Music Dragon]

To add to ex-communication point: I, like Phantom, was pretty much forced into the "sacrament" of Confirmation. I am a registered member of the Catholic Church.

What does this mean? It means that they can use my membership, and the membership of every registered Catholic, for political leverage. My membership indirectly fuels discriminatory laws that range from denying myself the right to marry another man to de-funding programs that promote women's health and wellness. It means that they can solicit me for money. It means that I'm on their mailing list, so I'm sent things like DVDs telling me that same-sex marriage, which I hope to partake in one day, is sinful and should never be made legal. It means I belong to a group that actively protects child rapists, that wishes to deny contraception to nations in Africa that desperately need it, that advocates intolerance toward people of other faiths (or no faith at all).

And I cannot do anything about it. Attempts have been made to peacefully ex-communicate oneself from the Catholic Church, but they are generally unsuccessful. The Catholic Church stands by its "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" motto, and they hold your spiritual identity hostage. The only sure-fire way to have yourself removed from the church is to assault the Pope, which is certainly easier said than done.

I will be writing letters to the bishop whose diocese I am registered with, as well as the bishop whose diocese I was baptized in, formally requesting ex-communication on the grounds of ideological differences and general disgust with the church. I'm not holding my breath, but I must try, because the Catholic Church sickens me more and more every day.

If you have to force people to remain registered members, what does that say about your church (and your religion)?

Wait, is there something I'm missing here? I never had any trouble leaving the Catholic Church, as far as I know. I just filled in some papers and presto, no more church tax. Is this yet another one of those things where the US and Scandinavia are super-different for seemingly no reason, or are they keeping something from me? Huh!

 

[Datura]

Wait, is there something I'm missing here? I never had any trouble leaving the Catholic Church, as far as I know. I just filled in some papers and presto, no more church tax. Is this yet another one of those things where the US and Scandinavia are super-different for seemingly no reason, or are they keeping something from me? Huh!

Are you referring to the Roman Catholic Church, or the Church of Sweden? I've never had to pay any sort of "church tax," and I don't think my family has either.

I guess I can only speak for ex-communication in the United States, although I wouldn't think the church's policies would vary from country to country. A subreddit called /r/excatholic documents numerous instances of members being unable to leave the church (although there are some success stories there too, which is always encouraging!).

 

[Tarvos]

To all religious people, I tell you...

"Do not mistake coincidence for fate." (Mr. Eko, LOST)

Win for quoting Mr Eko, fail for realising that character was, as it happens, religious :)

 

[Music Dragon]

Are you referring to the Roman Catholic Church, or the Church of Sweden? I've never had to pay any sort of "church tax," and I don't think my family has either.

I guess I can only speak for ex-communication in the United States, although I wouldn't think the church's policies would vary from country to country. A subreddit called /r/excatholic documents numerous instances of members being unable to leave the church (although there are some success stories there too, which is always encouraging!).

No, it's the Catholic church alright.

Here, take a look at this pamphlet. I got one exactly like this in the mail when I turned 18 (but in Swedish, of course). Specifically, note the "Can I renounce my membership of the Church?" part. That's basically what I did. Funny how that doesn't seem to apply where you live, I guess?

 

[Phantom]

Yay no longer on a cellphone!

I'm very sorry; it won't happen again.

I can't speak for them, sorry. But I can answer with John 10:30 ("I and my Father are one") and this link: http://www.evidencetobelieve.net/the_holy_trinity.htm (scroll most of the way down or search for "The Early Church")

The line "I and my father are one" still doesn't support the Trinity, in case you're wondering, Trinity is three. That's two.

Yes. But let's face it, not everybody here knows Hebrew, Greek, or even relatively modern KJV English.

Did you know that in the Qu'ran it's possible that the "virgins" referred to for paradise, may actually not be "virgins"... instead may actually be a fruit similar to a pomegranate?

Mistranslation. Virgins... citrus... eh, they're all the same.

Also, it's NOT JUST TRANSLATIONS!

I will give an example. Look up Martin Luther.

Deduction, Phantom.

Huh?

There's verses that surround it that also use hyperbole obviously (Matthew 6:2 and 3) so it's not exactly heresy.

"Heresay" not "Heresy"

"Or you could.... uh.... google the Gospels?"

Sigh.

This
This

That doesn't explain "There is also evidence of lots of civilisations being older than Noah's flood."

The biblical chronology puts Noah's flood at about 3000 BC. We know of and have found artifacts older than that.... stories older than that.

"Lol wut? It wasnt a 'war', maybe......."

It was spurred by race, not religion, right...?

No, not right at all.

Not even close.

Sorry, but Google gave me a bunch of links to stock photo sites and a shop when I searched it up.

Here let me google that for you... :P

Wikipedia can be your friend.

 

[Cerberus87]

Win for quoting Mr Eko, fail for realising that character was, as it happens, religious :)

Not really, he was a fake priest! And, in the end, he did not repent his sins.

 

[Tarvos]

Not really, he was a fake priest! And, in the end, he did not repent his sins.

He was still very religious, but he did not believe he'd done the wrong thing and that there were sins to confess. Also, the fact he was a fake priest doesn't stop him from being religious.

He is very cool though. I love Mr. Eko (as you can see, my avatar is Desmond...)

 

[hopeandjoy]

@ Music Dragon: The American Catholic Church is extremely conservative, even for the church.

 

[Datura]

@ Music Dragon: The American Catholic Church is extremely conservative, even for the church.

"American Catholic Church" isn't what you think it is. The Roman Catholic Church is what most people are referring to when they call themselves "Catholic," and it transcends national boundaries.

 

[Tarvos]

My grandmother excommunicated herself from the Catholic Church in the 70s or 80s or so - it is definitely possible, and it's been for a number of years. I think this is also at the discretion of the archbishop of that particular country and the vibe therein - perhaps the church has realised that in Western Europe, pushing for converts is a lost cause.

I know that in Dutch catholic seminaries, they don't take moderate Catholics anymore - they only accept hardliners who are serious about the religion. Everyone else has fucked off to non-religion.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

"American Catholic Church" isn't what you think it is. The Roman Catholic Church is what most people are referring to when they call themselves "Catholic," and it transcends national boundaries.

Can't be certain but it seems likely that when she said "American Catholic Church", she meant "the Catholic Church in America" rather than the tiny independent Catholic movement called the "American Catholic Church". Hopeandjoy seems at least moderately aware of what the RCC is and how it works. I think the point she was making is that the Catholic Church in America is more conservative than the Catholic Church in Sweden, which is probably true.

 

[hopeandjoy]

I know about the Roman Catholic Church because I was raised Catholic. I was refering to the American Consel of Bishops more specficly. We just had a big blow up over here because the new health care law states that all employers' health plans must include contraceptives and the bishops headed a backlash, citing the First Admendment (the parts about religious freedom, more specificly).

 

[shy ♡]

Be glad you guys can excommunicate yourself. :| There's no ex-Jewing yourself. I'm stuck a Jew for life. (And that's totally not indoctrination, nooooope!)

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Mfw I realise I've been thinking pathos and Phantom are the same person and that they were simultaneously indoctrinated into both Catholicism and Judaism;