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Israeli troops admit they might have gone a little overboard

Vladimir Putin's LJ

your blood flows through my veins
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.

The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.

The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.

"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.

Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.

Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.

'Less important'

The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.

"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.

In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.

Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.

"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.

One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.

The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.

Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.

'Moral army'

The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.

"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."

"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.


Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.

Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.

The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.
If this is the most moral army in the world I'd hate to see the least moral one.
I tried to bold the most, well, 'important' parts, but the whole article should be bolded really.

America, why do you continue arming this fucking country.
Rest of the world, why do you not help Palestine. This isn't a case of anti-semitism or whatever, it's a case of 'Israel is a terrible country'. Why are you doing the exact same fucking thing as the Germans did sixty years ago?

With the Pope's condom fuck-up and now all these depressing testimonies, it's been an utterly brilliant week.
 
Israel shouldn't be a country in the first place.
True, but it's too late now. Someone should just force Israel back to its original 40s boundaries, since it has mysteriously expanded over the last couple of decades.

israelpalestine.jpg
 
I have no trouble imagining that the Israeli military would act that way; in a war, people see their enemy as less than them. It just happens. Especially when you're the one actually fighting - if you saw your enemy as an equal, how could you be asked to kill them? You can't kill someone that's equal to you. Meh.

Not that I'm defending the army... Of course it's not 'the most moral army in the world'. No army is moral. The point of an army is to fight in wars; that's never moral. So 'moral army' is a contradiction of itself. I can't imagine any army that's in any war being moral unless they somehow avoided killing the people they were in war against. ... Which is impossible.

Also, Israel expanded because we got our land the same way all other nations get their land; just because it was done through war doesn't make it magically different than any other land that was taken by war. Seriously, what other way is there to get land? I don't see anyone saying 'Oh, here, we don't like this place anymore - you can have it'. It just doesn't work that way.

EDIT: Also, the only reason I can see that would be logical to help Palestine is to defend them and divide the land equally... so I'm just hoping you didn't mean to conquer all of Israel and give it to them? (Though I'm pretty damn positive that even if the land were divided, no one would be satisfied. Peh.)
 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm
America, why do you continue arming this fucking country.
We give them guns, and they give us money.
We like money.
We like money a lot.


Though really, I don't know why we seem to be arming the Israelis exclusively. Historically, the United States hasn't been so picky as to whom to arm. Consider the War of 1812. We got in to that partially because we were arming Napoleon, because it was lucrative, and Britain didn't like that, because Napoleon wanted to invade Britain. (Not that he succeeded.)
Unless I'm getting my history horribly skewed, then one of the factors that contributed to US participation in WWI was the way in which we sold guns to everyone. It's a good way to make money, arming both sides. I don't know why we're shunning the Palestinians. The best guess that I can foster is that we're somehow under the impression that Israel's government is the most stable in the region, and least likely to turn on and attack the United States.

Though, I guess what I'm really looking for is a statement on this topic from US administration. I already knew that civilians were dying in Gaza, and that Israel's government didn't want to admit that it was doing any such thing. I may just be looking for someone in power here at home to confirm that.

On the topic of Israel's expansion: Why do they bother? The people in the lands they take don't like them. The land's not fertile, either, in most spots, or very rich in minerals. Why do you want to possess a fruitless land filled with your enemies? I don't know.
Heck, I'm not even sure exactly what I'm saying, any more. I guess that's part of why I usually don't bother talking about the news.
 
@H-land, Israel expands because the Jews consider all of Israel to be 'ours' from the Biblical ages. So whatever land we take, is considered 'ours'; whether it has natural resources or whatever isn't important if it was given to us by God.

Also because humans are greedy and like to have more territory? *shrugs*
 
whether it has natural resources or whatever isn't important if it was given to us by God.
That sounds so messed up rofl, wouldn't god want them to share, and treat their neighbours like, um.. oh yeah, people? xD
 
In theory, sure, but it's not as if hypocrisy is something new (especially among religious folk). Besides, I'm pretty damned sure the Palestinians aren't interested in sharing.
 
Well apparently neither side is, which makes them equally as whack.

I think the US (and every other country allied with the US) should threaten to blow the living shit out of both sides. Split the land in half, actually monitor them, and tell them that if they continue killing eachother for land, that we'll all nuke their entire bloody country.

They'll probably keep going at it though, rofl.
and yeah, I don't see anything wrong with stooping down to their level to try and reach a compromise.
 
I think the US (and every other country allied with the US) should threaten to blow the living shit out of both sides. Split the land in half, actually monitor them, and tell them that if they continue killing eachother for land, that we'll all nuke their entire bloody country.

They'll probably keep going at it though, rofl.
and yeah, I don't see anything wrong with stooping down to their level to try and reach a compromise.

That would be like opening the world's most massive can of worms. If any superpower threatened to wipe two countries off the face of the earth - countries that were no threat whatsoever to the superpower in question - then all hell would break loose.

Not to mention the US is on Israel's side for this, and as a result, isn't going to do anything anti-Israel.
And because no country on earth wants to get into the US's bad books, they're not going to aid Palestine. Which is pretty much the crux of the issue; when VPLJ said "Rest of the world, why do you not help Palestine. This isn't a case of anti-semitism or whatever, it's a case of 'Israel is a terrible country'. Why are you doing the exact same fucking thing as the Germans did sixty years ago?" the answer is basically, nobody wants to stand up to the States.

Also, the US's "monitoring" skills aren't the best. I mean, geez, they're supposed to be helping now, not killing civillians.
 
That sounds so messed up rofl, wouldn't god want them to share, and treat their neighbours like, um.. oh yeah, people? xD

One of the laws in the old testament (it is in my sig via the random tag) states that one should give a city the option to surrender. They don't, kill them. They do, enslave them

Yeah, the Old Testament (As in, the Torah) probably has something in it that says it is ok >.>

Also, IIRC, they were attacked all the times before they expanded, so it was more of a way to get the enemy to stop than anything
 
Not to mention the US is on Israel's side for this, and as a result, isn't going to do anything anti-Israel.
And because no country on earth wants to get into the US's bad books, they're not going to aid Palestine. Which is pretty much the crux of the issue; when VPLJ said "Rest of the world, why do you not help Palestine. This isn't a case of anti-semitism or whatever, it's a case of 'Israel is a terrible country'. Why are you doing the exact same fucking thing as the Germans did sixty years ago?" the answer is basically, nobody wants to stand up to the States.

I know.. how the hell can anyone pick a side.. I would side with palestine, but hasn't palestine basically been poking a sleeping dragon for the past few decades? They kinda brought this upon themselves, but that doesn't justify what Israel is doing now.

You know what the sad thing is: fear = control.
US, China, Russia, they're all scary and all of us little countries have to comply with their decisions. If it's a country with a massive army and loads of nuclear weapons capable of blasting entire other countries into pieces, then everyone else automatically bows down to them.

If enough of the smaller countries wanted to do something to stop this, do you think the US would help, or would they threaten/cut ties with these countries? Our simply sit back and watch.
 
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I know.. how the hell can anyone pick a side.. I would side with palestine, but hasn't palestine basically been poking a sleeping dragon for the past few decades? They kinda brought this upon themselves, but that doesn't justify what Israel is doing now.
It's moslty Hamas that's been actively doing anything against Israel. The peaceful liberation groups (like Fatah) are universally ignored. I'm not saying Hamas using force to get their point across is a good thing (because it isn't), but literally no one gives a shit about Palestine. This is the only way they get heard of.
And whoever said Israel was justified for conquering Palestinian land because Palestine attacks Israel - don't be stupid. Palestine itself doesn't attack anyone, it's only groups like Hamas that do any damage (and even then they don't do shit because they have the worst weapons in the world) so Israel has no excuse for what they're doing.
And no, you can't say 'well it's only militant israeli groups who attack palestine not israel itself!!' because the people doing the slaughtering are from the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force, Israel's army, most moral army on God's green Earth.

The only real solution I see (except travelling back in time to stop Israel from getting created or at least put it on British or American ground. You guys were the ones intent on creating the bloody place) would be to force Israel back to its original boundaries, make all the illegal settlers get the fuck out of Palestine and stop arming them for christ's sake.

US, China, Russia, they're all scary and all of us little countries have to comply with their decisions. If it's a country with a massive army and loads of nuclear weapons capable of blasting entire other countries into pieces, then everyone else automatically bows down to them.
Israel has 100-200 nuclear weapons. That's about as much as China.
I'm kind of surprised they haven't used them yet but seeing as there's so many illegal Israeli settlers they probably don't want to risk killing any of the master race.
 
Israel is a terrible country, we should destroy it. It shouldn't exist :( also I hate that a justification used for taking Palestinian land is "God gave it to us." That should not be a valid reason for anything.

:( someone do something to help Palestine.
 
The biggest problem is the fact that Israeli's DO have a right to a country, but they insist on that spot. In fact, isn't the area Israel occupies important to Christainity and Muslims as well?

>.> This would be one of those ironic times where religion makes things worse despite claiming to make things better
 
Israel is a terrible country, we should destroy it. It shouldn't exist :( also I hate that a justification used for taking Palestinian land is "God gave it to us." That should not be a valid reason for anything.

:( someone do something to help Palestine.
Definitely a terrible country, but destroying it implies killing everyone in it and that's totally unjustified. I think the only real solution at this point is really to make it 1947 Israel, boundary-wise. It's still pretty unfair but it's a lot better than what it is now.
And yeah God Gave It To Us is a terrible excuse, unfortunately many people believe it's valid.

I've attended a protest but regular people can't do much except protest and donate money to Palestine (which I'm going to do). Obama&co recently gave them a nice amount of cash, if I remember correctly.

The biggest problem is the fact that Israeli's DO have a right to a country, but they insist on that spot. In fact, isn't the area Israel occupies important to Christainity and Muslims as well?
Is there some kind of test one can take to see if one 'has a right' to a country? Specifically a country occupied by other people? We're not in the middle ages, you can't just up and steal land and claim it as your own.
And no it's not 'the area' it's just Jerusalem, which is a total shithole right now because all three religions keep competing to see who can out-douchebag the other. The Muslims have erected a wall in front of the Special Jew Graveyard (supposedly God's going to make you come back to life in the rapture if you're buried there to take you to heaven or something) so that they can't march to Heaven.

Which is bloody retarded seeing as if God could make people come back to life he could probably, probably step over a crappy stone wall.

>.> This would be one of those ironic times where religion makes things worse despite claiming to make things better
Religion does that all the time, it's not exactly news.
 
Definitely a terrible country, but destroying it implies killing everyone in it and that's totally unjustified. I think the only real solution at this point is really to make it 1947 Israel, boundary-wise. It's still pretty unfair but it's a lot better than what it is now.
And yeah God Gave It To Us is a terrible excuse, unfortunately many people believe it's valid.

I've attended a protest but regular people can't do much except protest and donate money to Palestine (which I'm going to do). Obama&co recently gave them a nice amount of cash, if I remember correctly.


Is there some kind of test one can take to see if one 'has a right' to a country? Specifically a country occupied by other people? We're not in the middle ages, you can't just up and steal land and claim it as your own.
And no it's not 'the area' it's just Jerusalem, which is a total shithole right now because all three religions keep competing to see who can out-douchebag the other. The Muslims have erected a wall in front of the Special Jew Graveyard (supposedly God's going to make you come back to life in the rapture if you're buried there to take you to heaven or something) so that they can't march to Heaven.

Which is bloody retarded seeing as if God could make people come back to life he could probably, probably step over a crappy stone wall.


Religion does that all the time, it's not exactly news.

Well no what I meant was we should say "Israel is no longer a country, sorry" and refuse to have anything to do with it. America needs to take the pineapple out of its arse first, mind, but it can be done!
 
And whoever said Israel was justified for conquering Palestinian land because Palestine attacks Israel - don't be stupid. Palestine itself doesn't attack anyone, it's only groups like Hamas that do any damage (and even then they don't do shit because they have the worst weapons in the world) so Israel has no excuse for what they're doing.

That's now. But when we conquered the land, we were being attacked on all sides - by Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Palestine, etc. So to say we weren't being attacked is just insulting.

What we're doing now? No excuse. But expanding our territory? Definitely an excuse.

And no, you can't say 'well it's only militant israeli groups who attack palestine not israel itself!!' because the people doing the slaughtering are from the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force, Israel's army, most moral army on God's green Earth.

... no one ever said that?

Israel has 100-200 nuclear weapons. That's about as much as China.
I'm kind of surprised they haven't used them yet but seeing as there's so many illegal Israeli settlers they probably don't want to risk killing any of the master race.

Uh, yeah, or we don't want to start a nuclear war. One or the other.

Is there some kind of test one can take to see if one 'has a right' to a country? Specifically a country occupied by other people? We're not in the middle ages, you can't just up and steal land and claim it as your own.
And no it's not 'the area' it's just Jerusalem, which is a total shithole right now because all three religions keep competing to see who can out-douchebag the other. The Muslims have erected a wall in front of the Special Jew Graveyard (supposedly God's going to make you come back to life in the rapture if you're buried there to take you to heaven or something) so that they can't march to Heaven.

Have you ever been to Jerusalem? I go there almost every day and it's most certainly not a shithole. o_O I have no idea where you're getting that from - comparing it to New York (where I've also been, and was raised), it's doing just fine, thanks. Rather well, to be honest.

Also a test for getting your own country would be having a holocaust because you don't have a military to defend yourself with.

(And this isn't really important but the Massiah for the Jews comes to all Jews and, I believe, all humans; not just those that're buried in Jerusalem. It's just that it comes in Jerusalem. And the Temple was in Jerusalem.)

Sorry for going quote-crazy it's just easier to respond that way. <<;
 
Also a test for getting your own country would be having a holocaust because you don't have a military to defend yourself with.

How does the Holocaust justify a completely unrelated country having land taken from it? Especially when that nearly all that land has essentially been absorbed into Israel over the past sixty years?

And saying that other countries gained land through war is irrelevant in this day and age, it'd be preferable if we got over the mentality of "I beat you up now that's mine". Forceful takeovers are generally* viewed as a bad thing, you know?

*Or at least supposed to be
 
That's now. But when we conquered the land, we were being attacked on all sides - by Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Palestine, etc. So to say we weren't being attacked is just insulting.
Attack those countries then. Oops, they're not as defenseless as Palestine, I'd forgotten.

What we're doing now? No excuse. But expanding our territory? Definitely an excuse.
Wait, so what you're doing now (ie slaughtering Palestine) is inexcusable (true) but expanding your country (by slaughtering Palestine) is awesome? That makes perfect sense!

... no one ever said that?
Yes thank you, I am obviously blind and retarded. This couldn't have been a pre-emptive answer because I was certain someone was either thinking it or going to say it.

Uh, yeah, or we don't want to start a nuclear war. One or the other.
hurf

Have you ever been to Jerusalem? I go there almost every day and it's most certainly not a shithole. o_O I have no idea where you're getting that from - comparing it to New York (where I've also been, and was raised), it's doing just fine, thanks. Rather well, to be honest.
Ah yes, I have to experience everything and visit every country to form an opinion on it, thank you for reminding me of The Rule. And I didn't mean physically because yeah Jerusalem looks quite nice but religiously and politically? Christ.

Also a test for getting your own country would be having a holocaust because you don't have a military to defend yourself with.
So every minority who ever got persecuted and slaughtered should get a country? Christ, that's a job and a half, buddy.

(And this isn't really important but the Massiah for the Jews comes to all Jews and, I believe, all humans; not just those that're buried in Jerusalem. It's just that it comes in Jerusalem. And the Temple was in Jerusalem.)
I always found that weird too, but apparently either the Muslims got it wrong or that particular hill is special or something.
Genuine question: why can't anyone rebuild the temple? Is there some kind of fixed condition for it to be built again or something?
 
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