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Racism & Other Prejudices

Volcarona said:
White people are just as prejudiced to tothers and themselves as any other race. They are subject to racism as much as any other race.
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While we're talking about white privilege, white people cannot experience racism. Racism is institutionalised discrimination and this is something white people do not face. The fact that you can write those two sentences with a straight face speaks enough for the privilege that you have.

You cannot look at an example of prejudice in a vacuum - racism is an entire ideology, not just a description, and not having the weight behind it, 'white racism' just doesn't exist.

Many if not most white people in our time are not racist or do not act upon their prejudices.
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It doesn't matter whether you think you say or think racist things, you have white privilege regardless and always will. As pathos says, this isn't something that requires an apology or guilt, this is just the way the world is. Nobody's saying that all white people personally 'act upon their prejudices' or even saying that that's relevant - it has nothing to do with you personally, it's that you have been raised in racism.
 
Cirrus said:
You cannot look at an example of prejudice in a vacuum - racism is an entire ideology, not just a description, and not having the weight behind it, 'white racism' just doesn't exist.
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To clarify this (and this is an actual example on my "On Reasoning and Arguing" thread that nobody reads), you're working with two different definitions of racism. Volcarona is thinking of racism as prejudice against other races in general. However, this is not the definition of racism used in sociology, because the fact is minorities' racial prejudice against white people does not generally affect the daily lives of white people, at all; it is a trivial issue compared to white racial prejudice against minorities, which permeates most Western societies to the core and makes things difficult for people in ways you'd never even think about. That's white privilege: you never even have to think about these issues, because they don't affect you. Members of minorities that actually are oppressed by the system are affected by these issues and have to spend their lives thinking about it.
 
No one ever said that white people are inherently racist, just that they don't have to deal with the problem of being discriminated against due to their race nearly as much as... any other race, essentially.

Regardless, pejoratives should be avoided.
 
Cirrus said:
white people cannot experience racism. [...] You cannot look at an example of prejudice in a vacuum - racism is an entire ideology, not just a description, and not having the weight behind it, 'white racism' just doesn't exist.
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I have to call bullshit here. While I agree it occurs on a much smaller scale than racism against minorities (at least here in the US), it's ludicrous to assume that racism against white people doesn't happen.

As for the whole racism in general versus institutionalized racism: it's all the same. Racism is racism. Institutionalized racism has the force of the state behind it, but remember, any racist government is still made up of racist individuals. Just because black people were oppressed by a white, racist government way back when doesn't mean that white people can't be subject to racism today.
 
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Aobaru said:
I have to call bullshit here. While I agree it occurs on a much smaller scale than racism against minorities (at least here in the US), it's ludicrous to assume that racism against white people doesn't happen.

As for the whole racism in general versus institutionalized racism: it's all the same. Racism is racism. Institutionalized racism has the force of the state behind it, but remember, any racist government is still made up of racist individuals. Just because black people were oppressed by a white, racist government way back when doesn't mean that white people can't be subject to racism today.
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No, it is not the same. At all. Racism is privilege and power with prejudice. People of colour do not have the power in society. Nobody's saying that prejudice against white people cannot happen, or does not happen. The point is that that is not racism.

You cannot look at racism in a vacuum! You cannot look at 'racist individuals', that is just basically meaningless. Unless you're looking at pop culture racism rather than racism from a sociological and critical race theory standing, which, er, I hope is not what we're doing here. Racism is history and culture and not any isolated incident. White people do not experience cultural appropriation, are not removed from traditional standards of beauty, are not marginalised, are not under-represented in the media, in politics, anywhere.

Also, what the fuck are you on about? "way back when"? Are you just that incredibly sheltered?
 
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Calm down! There's a sticky up there that wants your attention! You're arguing on the definition of a word, which isn't the point here!
 
Mendatt said:
Calm down! There's a sticky up there that wants your attention! You're arguing on the definition of a word, which isn't the point here!
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No, Aobaru and others are specifically saying that white people can experience prejudice to the same level as people of colour! So.

Also, please don't mini-mod.
 
Cirrus said:
No, it is not the same. At all. Racism is privilege and power with prejudice. People of colour do not have the power in society. Nobody's saying that prejudice against white people cannot happen, or does not happen. The point is that that is not racism.
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I think Butterfree's right, we're arguing semantics here. Sociological racism aside, I think racism is racial prejudice that is acted upon. That's my definition. If a person discriminates against a white person, regardless of their colour, I consider it racism.

Also, what the fuck are you on about? "way back when"? Are you just that incredibly sheltered?
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Not the best choice of words, sorry. I meant that the government doesn't actively discriminate based on colour anymore.

Cirrus said:
No, Aobaru and others are specifically saying that white people can experience prejudice to the same level as people of colour! So.
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I'm saying it's stupid to assume they can't.
 
Aobaru said:
I'm saying it's stupid to assume they can't.
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Assume? Aobaru, it doesn't happen! How can you genuinely believe this?

When you look at positions of power, white people fill the stands, when you look at the media, when you look at fiction, characters in books are assumed to be white, standards of beauty are for white people and for white features, you will never face cultural appropriation, you will never face marginalisation solely because you are white. Just because maybe one day a white person gets called 'white trash' or something in a person-of-colour ghetto it is nothing compared to what people of colour face wherever they go and all of the time.

The very fact that racism is taught as this thing that ~anyone~ can face is very indicative of the failings of education and cultural awareness! Except then you realise that the syllabus is dictated by those in power, who are white, that teachers are overwhelmingly going to be white, that ingrained stereotypes about people of colour is that they are all uneducated, that they very much as a whole do tend to be less educated because of their marginalisation, that socialisation as a whole happens in a white culture, from a white culture, for a white culture.

If you get discriminated against in employment because of your whiteness, you can be 100% safe in the knowledge that if you turn somewhere else, you are nearly completely guaranteed to find it fine there. Any prejudice a white person faces is so, so insignificant in comparison because of their privilege and I just cannot understand how you can't have considered this!
 
Aobaru said:
I think Butterfree's right, we're arguing semantics here. Sociological racism aside, I think racism is racial prejudice that is acted upon. That's my definition. If a person discriminates against a white person, regardless of their colour, I consider it racism.
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The fact you can define a word to include both of them does not mean the two are meaningfully equivalent. The point here is that they aren't, because the racial prejudice experienced by white people comes in trivial, isolated incidents whereas that experienced by people of color affects all of them, in their daily lives, every day. It doesn't have to be officially government-sanctioned to affect every stage of society. If the fact you call both "racism" makes you unable to see the difference, then stop using that word.
 
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Cirrus said:
Assume? Aobaru, it doesn't happen! How can you genuinely believe this?

When you look at positions of power, white people fill the stands, when you look at the media, when you look at fiction, characters in books are assumed to be white, standards of beauty are for white people and for white features, you will never face cultural appropriation, you will never face marginalisation solely because you are white. Just because maybe one day a white person gets called 'white trash' or something in a person-of-colour ghetto it is nothing compared to what people of colour face wherever they go and all of the time.

The very fact that racism is taught as this thing that ~anyone~ can face is very indicative of the failings of education and cultural awareness! Except then you realise that the syllabus is dictated by those in power, who are white, that teachers are overwhelmingly going to be white, that ingrained stereotypes about people of colour is that they are all uneducated, that they very much as a whole do tend to be less educated because of their marginalisation, that socialisation as a whole happens in a white culture, from a white culture, for a white culture.

If you get discriminated against in employment because of your whiteness, you can be 100% safe in the knowledge that if you turn somewhere else, you are nearly completely guaranteed to find it fine there. Any prejudice a white person faces is so, so insignificant in comparison because of their privilege and I just cannot understand how you can't have considered this!
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I realize all of this, Cirrus, and I'm not naive enough to think that white people face as much discrimination, or even anywhere near as much discrimination as other races. What I have a problem with is the positive statement you're making: that white people cannot experience racism. They can, and they do. Not nearly on the scale, nowhere even NEAR the scale in which other races do, but it does happen.

An interesting analogy to make here is gay and straight discrimination. Of course 99.99% of this kind of discrimination is straight-on-gay. But can we really say that there's no gay-on-straight discrimination? I mean, somewhere out there, there has to be a gay person who has hateful feelings towards heteronormality or straight people, and would discriminate if they reached a position of power.

Of course, you can argue that black-on-white discrimination is trivial, or "insignificant" as you put it, but does that mean we should just ignore it? Any racism is bad, right?
 
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Aobaru said:
I realize all of this, Cirrus, and I'm not naive enough to think that white people face as much discrimination, or even anywhere near as much discrimination as other races. What I have a problem with is the positive statement you're making: that white people cannot experience racism. They can, and they do. Not nearly on the scale, nowhere even NEAR the scale in which other races do, but it does happen.

An interesting analogy to make here is gay and straight discrimination. Of course 99.99% of this kind of discrimination is straight-on-gay. But can we really say that there's no gay-on-straight discrimination? I mean, somewhere out there, there has to be a gay person who has hateful feelings towards heteronormality or straight people, and would discriminate if they reached a position of power.

Of course, you can argue that black-on-white discrimination is trivial, or "insignificant" as you put it, but does that mean we should just ignore it? Any racism is bad, right?
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I'm gonna pop in and try and steady this. When white people are discriminated against based on colour, it is just that: discrimination. It's rare, but it isn't racism, because it isn't institutionalized or, as Cirrus says, there is no privilege+power in play. It's just discrimination, prejudice, what have you, based on random people.

The reason black-on-white 'racism' is trivial is because it isn't institutionalized.
 
Aobaru said:
What I have a problem with is the positive statement you're making: that white people cannot experience racism. They can, and they do. Not nearly on the scale, nowhere even NEAR the scale in which other races do, but it does happen.
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Aobaru you've just asserted that you're sticking by your own definition of 'racism'. So, uh, obviously this isn't going to work.

Of course prejudice towards white people occurs. But no, it is not bad on the same scale that racial prejudice against people of colour is. Not as bad at all. The point you seem to be ignoring is that racial prejudice against people of colour carries thousands and thousands of years of institutionalised culture and history behind it.

If you're going to keep on ignoring the sociological definition of racism this debate really can't continue, did you not pay attention to Butterfree's post at all?

Of course, you can argue that black-on-white discrimination is trivial, or "insignificant" as you put it, but does that mean we should just ignore it? Any racism is bad, right?
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What should we do? Tell all those nasty black people off for being mean to the white people?

EDIT: Okay maybe pathos is better at getting it across! Listen to pathos!
 
I pose a question. Do you think it is racist for colored people to automatically assume all whites are racist? I just want people's opinions.
 
Firelord Alex said:
I pose a question. Do you think it is racist for colored people to automatically assume all whites are racist? I just want people's opinions.
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For one, what you're suggesting isn't institutional racism and is a gross and unreasonable exaggeration. Secondly, please do not use "coloured people" as that is a slur in itself.
 
What would be better? Non-whites? Non-caucasians? I'm talking about all Asians, African Americans, Latinos, Hispanics, etc.
 
Aobaru said:
I realize all of this, Cirrus, and I'm not naive enough to think that white people face as much discrimination, or even anywhere near as much discrimination as other races. What I have a problem with is the positive statement you're making: that white people cannot experience racism.
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Arguing about words! "You used this word. However, I'm defining it to mean something which makes your statement untrue! Let's therefore ignore what you were actually trying to say."

When Cirrus said white people "cannot experience racism", she was obviously talking about her definition of racism, the sociological one, which is prejudice + power. Saying "Well, they can experience my definition of racism!" is not a meaningful argument against that.

How about we stop using the word "racism" for a bit? I think it would help this debate get somewhere meaningful.
 
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