The Cave of Dragonflies forums

Go Back   The Cave of Dragonflies forums > Games > Anime-Style Battling > ASB Meta

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 04-26-2015, 03:52 AM
Superbird's Avatar
Superbird Superbird is offline
Fire emblem is great
 
Join Date: December 28, 2008
Location: North Carolina
Age: 20
Posts: 4,677
Pronoun: He
Superbird is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via Skype™ to Superbird
Default On Evolution

So, lately, I've been thinking about something. ASB, at least on TCoD, is built mainly from its own intrinsic value. Battling is fun, and that's why we do it. But there are unfortunate aspects of ASB that end up being kind of useless. Money is one of these, once you have more of it than you need; another is evolution.

Which might not make that much sense at first, but consider: Most evolutions, as far as ASB is concerned, are very similar to their pre-evolutions. Certainly there are exceptions, like when pokémon change type, and some are more varied than others - take, for example, some of the league's most common unevolved pokémon (Ralts, Horsea, Snorunt, Riolu, Deino, Fletchling). And some evolutions have vastly superior movepools than their pre-evolutions, even while remaining the same types with the same abilities (Zorua, Buneary). But the majority of pokémon, when they evolve, aren't really getting much out of it except the ability to use Hyper Beam and Giga Impact and a little bit higher of a Speed stat (Litwick, Joltik, Mienfoo, Drillbur, Shinx, Misdreavus, Gastly, Meowth, Zubat, Vulpix, Mareep, Shuppet). A lot of people have been doing trade evolutions at the Trading Post lately, and I've been sitting back and watching amusedly, asking myself why I should evolve my Graveler when all I really get by doing so is four moves and the inability to use Eviolite. A lot of unevolved pokémon are just as powerful as their evolved forms in this league, and that takes away perhaps the greatest source of extrinsic motivation to even play ASB. And it sort of makes me wonder what the point is of people putting "unevolved pokémon only" in the Additional Rules section of challenges.

tl;dr Pokémon variety in ASB is principally tied to movepools, types, and abilities, things with, for the vast majority of pokémon, do not change when they evolve. I assert that there ought to be some sort of benefit to evolving a pokémon, other than a few extra points of Speed, and at least I'd like to discuss the matter.
__________________
Visit my art website - Monitors of Modern Art! Updates weekly.

For those in ASB Battles that I happen to be reffing, I have several habits that deviate from most other refs. These can be found in this document, and involve mostly stat modifications and status conditions, as well as other clarifications regarding the specifics of certain attacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokémon Showdown VGC
[02:22:35] +Superbird: ok seriously tho can I get some opinions on modern art
[02:22:42] +Superbird: its important
[02:23:18] @amr97: Modern art includes artistic works produced during the period extending roughly from the 1860s to the 1970s, and denotes the style and philosophy of the art produced during that era.
[02:23:20] @amr97: The term is usually associated with art in which the traditions of the past have been thrown aside in a spirit of experimentation.
[02:24:26] +Superbird: opinions, amr97, not definitions
[02:24:49] @amr97: oh
[02:24:52] @amr97: i don't get it
[02:24:56] @amr97: is my opinion
[02:25:04] +Superbird: oh ffs
[02:25:28] +Superbird: maybe i should give up and try a different room
[02:25:32] @amr97: probably tbh
[02:26:19] @SamVGC: i think this chatroom
[02:26:22] @SamVGC: is an art form
[02:26:26] @Dog-for-Dinner: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Opinions+on+Modern+Art
[02:26:47] +Superbird: dong-for-dinner that is not a thing to be goggled
[02:26:50] +Superbird: *dog
[02:26:51] +Superbird: *google
[02:27:02] @amr97: dong-for-dinner lmao
[02:27:07] @amr97: that had to be intentional
[02:27:18] +Superbird: 100% wasn't
[02:27:28] +Superbird: i'm so used to typing dingram's name that
[02:27:45] +Superbird: anything starting with the same first letter
[02:28:17] @Dog-for-Dinner: why is it not a thing to be googled
[02:28:23] @Dog-for-Dinner: google is the story of my high school
[02:28:33] +Superbird: you dont google opinions
[02:28:36] +Superbird: you google facts
[02:28:52] @Dog-for-Dinner: seems like a science student is trying to study humanities
[02:28:56] @Dog-for-Dinner: and is having a hard time
[02:29:00] +Superbird: ^

Last edited by Superbird; 04-26-2015 at 04:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-26-2015, 04:44 AM
JackPK's Avatar
JackPK JackPK is offline
blame telegram
 
Join Date: June 23, 2008
Location: Texas
Age: 25
Posts: 1,617
Pronoun: He
JackPK is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

I remember when I was a ref in the old league circa 2010-11, we had an evolutionary-stage bonus in the damage formula (-1 for unevolved, 0 for middle stage, +1 for final evolutions) instead of the EXP bonus in the current one. There's something to be said for both systems, but I think I like the EXP one better. On top of that, a mere plus-or-minus 1 doesn't seem to make as big of an impact as you're suggesting.

(As a side note, under the current system, perhaps rather than "unevolved only" we should be using clauses like "has X EXP or less". At least, if power is what people are worried about rather than speed.)

Tl;dr I don't know the solution, and TCoD ASB has certainly taken away part of the reason to have evolutions at all for many Pokemon, but in the larger scheme of things I think the EXP system is better than what we had.
__________________
avatar is from here

if you feel like it, click on my GPX+ party below! :3


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-26-2015, 05:09 AM
Lord of the Fireflies's Avatar
Lord of the Fireflies Lord of the Fireflies is offline
Back in black.
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 2,222
Pronoun: He
Lord of the Fireflies is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

Yeah, I wonder the same thing when I look at my Murkrow which would only lose 20 points in speed upon evolving. It would be even worse if it had its excellent Dream World ability in Prankster, which it also loses upon evolving.

For now, evolved pokémon are a bit stronger and expand a little less energy when performing moves (well, it was that way when I joined). And that's pretty much it.

I have the feeling the debate is going to be similar to the Mega Evolution one. Our problem here is that we can't continue to ignore a mechanic that is so intrinsically tied to the pokémon mechanics - and that's stats. Each time we have a debate around Guard Swap and the likes, we try and go around the problem.

Maybe we should check out other successful leagues and see how they handle that. I'm not completely opposed to the ranking system used in Smogon, though it could be tweaked a bit to equalize the stats of pokémon.

EDIT: There's also the fact that evolution is more the will than the way. I battle to evolve my pokémon, not evolve them to battle with them. Once it's evolved, it goes straight in the box. I guess I keep them there for eventual tournament battles, but I lost first round on my first tournament battle with a rental pokémon, so it was no use, and I joined back too late for the second one.

The Battle for Asber was another reason to evolve, I guess, but we all know how that went.

Last edited by Lord of the Fireflies; 04-26-2015 at 05:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-26-2015, 07:19 AM
pathos's Avatar
pathos pathos is offline
doot doot
 
Join Date: July 4, 2010
Age: 18
Posts: 2,539
Pronoun: It/Him
pathos is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of the Fireflies View Post
For now, evolved pokémon are a bit stronger and expand a little less energy when performing moves (well, it was that way when I joined). And that's pretty much it.
Actually that was changed a long time ago to the current EXP system.

Quote:
I have the feeling the debate is going to be similar to the Mega Evolution one. Our problem here is that we can't continue to ignore a mechanic that is so intrinsically tied to the pokémon mechanics - and that's stats. Each time we have a debate around Guard Swap and the likes, we try and go around the problem.

Maybe we should check out other successful leagues and see how they handle that. I'm not completely opposed to the ranking system used in Smogon, though it could be tweaked a bit to equalize the stats of pokémon.
I'd reaaaallly rather not. :\ Idk how to put this more er, nicely, but I really don't care for most other ASB's, tbh? I really like TCoD ASB. And I really really don't want to implement mandatory stats to pokemon. It's just. Too much.

But anyhow. I don't really see why pokemon evolution has to be made more of a Big Deal? I believe the change to the EXP system was made specifically in order to make it less of a big deal (as well as giving EXP a use). Evolution, like in the anime (which ASB is supposed to be based off after all), is not inherently better. It's an aesthetic change and sometimes you gain some moves and sometimes your stats change, but overall, you can choose not to evolve, in the end. This way it's totally fair to bring out your big guns against a newb; a pikachu can totally wreck a raichu. Why not?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Pokémon, Pikachu and all other Pokémon characters © Nintendo, Game Freak and Creatures Inc. The Cave of Dragonflies, content, styles, etc. © Butterfree/Dragonfree/antialiasis.
Forum now hosted by Eevee's HQ.