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  #1  
Old 02-08-2015, 02:44 AM
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Default On Chill

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Originally Posted by surskitty View Post
Could you nerds try adjusting the numbers so that Chilling and doing a one-action re(charge) move is not more efficient than actually taking two actions for those moves? As it is that's kind of absurd.

ETA: I mean yeah some people limit chills in their challenges, so it's not always going to be a factor, but that still seems like probably either Solarbeam, Giga Impact et al are too cheap or damage-guide Chills restore too much energy, especially given that they're generally only used if you have nothing else to do. And generally I think that if people are frequently giving move restrictions (like the common ban on direct healing), that implies the moves in question are unbalanced.
Our topic at hand is Chilling. Is 10% a proper value for it, or is it too high? Should there be more circumstances where it's officially made to restore less energy, or simply fail to work? How should it behave against paralysis, confusion and/or attraction fail, includingly in terms of conditonals made to account for those? Should Chilling while asleep continue being a possibility?
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Old 02-08-2015, 02:49 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

I think 10% for chill is perfectly fine, because chances are you're going to get interrupted and heal quite a bit less than 10%.

I think for paralysis/confusion/attraction/whatever fail, you've already failed that action, so I don't think you should be able to chill.

When you're asleep you have precious little you can do already. Chilling while asleep should remain, imo.
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Old 02-08-2015, 02:52 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

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Originally Posted by blazheirio889 View Post
I think 10% for chill is perfectly fine, because chances are you're going to get interrupted and heal quite a bit less than 10%.

I think for paralysis/confusion/attraction/whatever fail, you've already failed that action, so I don't think you should be able to chill.

When you're asleep you have precious little you can do already. Chilling while asleep should remain, imo.
Agreed. Interrupted chill is already a thing; officially knocking it down even more makes it way too much of a nerf. It's not really a problem right now.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

I think 10% is the perfect number because otherwise it's an action where you're doing nothing - basically giving your opponent the perfect chance to kill you. c: So regardless of whether you're interrupted, you're only healing 10% energy, and probably losing a lot of health. And keep in mind /when/ you'd be chilling - later during a battle, when your energy's low, so your health'd probably be down in the dumps as well.

I agree we should cap it though so refs don't delineate with how much they give.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:16 AM
Meursault Meursault is offline
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Default Re: On Chill

Prohibit sleep chills as part of Rest's nerf imo. Also on (re)charge turns for moves like Solarbeam and Giga Impact, that's just silly. They're already busy charging/recovering for/from an attack, they can't chill at the same time.

I think chill's numbers are fine, it's just usable in situations I don't think are plausible.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

Not sure I'd feel about banning chilling during any old sleep, but during rest would be fine. If rest is supposed to be a multi-action ongoing healing process, then that means you're devoting energy to it every action. It just seems kind of odd to pour out a ton of energy and then recover it in the same action, you know? When you look at it that way it's like two actions in one. Think of it like three forced recovers in a row (although the numbers might not line up with that, idk), and you can't chill + recover in the same action.

Granted I used to ref rest as recovering all of the health in one go, which also means it uses all the energy in one go; in that situation chilling would be fine, because you've already done all of the expenditure and would in fact have spare actions for rest's remaining duration. Since that's not the standard, though, yeah, I'm a little iffy about rest-chill.

No particular opinion about anything else aside from that I don't see anything wrong with 10% chills. If they had to be nerfed I wouldn't go any lower than 7%, but that's... just not as nice a number as 10!
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:25 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

It doesn't make /sense/ to stop chills during rest. You're literally resting. You should be able to... rest. ?____? Same re: giga impact/solarbeam ??? If you're resting you get to rest.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

I don't think Rest needs to be nerfed at all. You have no control over how much you recover and thus will likely be forced to pay out a huge chunk of energy (you wouldn't really Rest unless you were in dire need of health). In most circumstances the energy you regain from chilling twice won't amount to how much you used (under best circumstances, you get 20% energy, which would heal 40% health, whch is less than other direct recovery). Finally, the biggest cost of Rest is that you leave yourself wide open for an entire round. If anything, I think Rest is more mechanically balanced than other recovery, just more tedious to battle against/ref because it heals more.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

I see where you're coming from, but it just seems inconsistent with the other recovery moves. You aren't just sleeping, as you would be if you got hit with spore. You are recovering health every action. That requires expending energy. Why is it okay to expend energy and regain it at the same time for rest, but not for recover? It's really more a consistency/flavor concern on my part than it is any huge problem with rest being imbalanced. Like I said, if you spent all of the energy on one turn and then did "nothing" on the following two, chilling would make sense because the energy expenditure has stopped.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:47 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

I mean, you're chilling at the same time you execute the move, so I'm not seeing why you can't, idk, relax as you digest your food or something.

besides, being able to chill keeps rest restricting your actions for two actions somewhat in line with recover &c., I think? I mean, compared to recovering twice and chilling once, I think using rest once and chilling twice is an advantage of about +10% energy, but the disadvantage is that you are actually locked into doing your chilling on those two actions, which is a lot easier for your opponent to take advantage of than, you'll need to chill at some point in the future to avoid energyfaint, but you can do it any time in between.

10% doesn't seem like a huge deal since realistically energyfaint doesn't actually happen except where chills are restricted or the opponent is actively going for it, right?

the action restriction seems a like a huge deal in comparison.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:53 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kratos Aurion View Post
I see where you're coming from, but it just seems inconsistent with the other recovery moves. You aren't just sleeping, as you would be if you got hit with spore. You are recovering health every action. That requires expending energy. Why is it okay to expend energy and regain it at the same time for rest, but not for recover? It's really more a consistency/flavor concern on my part than it is any huge problem with rest being imbalanced. Like I said, if you spent all of the energy on one turn and then did "nothing" on the following two, chilling would make sense because the energy expenditure has stopped.
This was essentially my thought regarding chilling on Hyper Beam/Giga Impact recovery turn and Solarbeam charging turn. In Hyper Beam/Giga Impact's cases, they're already tired from the attack, so they're already chilling from that in a sense. Maybe you could ref them as regaining a small amount of energy, but personally I'd take that out of the energy cost for the attack itself. And as for Solarbeam and any other charge turn moves I'm forgetting, the user is already putting all their concentration into preparing for the next action's attack, I don't think they could reasonably be expected to relax enough to regain any energy during that.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:58 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

I'd say re/charge moves should have their effect changed, not ban chill for it. Generally, making them into real two-action moves just makes them pretty worthless when you could have two medium-strength attacks doing the same amount of damage in two actions, that's why no one is expected to do it. Besides, banning chill post-solarbeam doesn't make sense anyway. The suggestion I have is that two-turn moves are by default one action. Solar beam et al charge over the action, and are launched at negative priority, but the charging has to happen immediately, so you can't conditionally solar beam if it means waiting for the opponent to act. For recharge moves, weaken or increase energy cost of the following action due to tiredness. Two-action moves are just generally not useful, and the point should be that there's a cost to balance it out, not making it outright worse than standard 80+ bp moves.

I'm absolutely against banning sleep chills in general just to nerf the one move. If you must, rest is treated differently from sleep often enough that you could ban it during rest. But there is so little you can do during sleep anyway that adding chill is a benefit; otherwise it's the sleep status that has to be nerfed. And flavour-wise, chilling during sleep matches perfectly - they're asleep, of course they should wake up refreshed!

I'm not for banning chills during rest either because rest is still supposed to take from sleep including the actions available during it (are you going to ban sleep talk and snore too because it's not "really" sleep and is instead a super-intense healing trance?) and I don't feel it is as big of an issue as it's made out to be, mind.

No need to go lower than 10%. It was chosen because it's a nice number more than perfect balance reasons, presumably, but also it's not actually a huge issue. I support of getting rid of "chill if you're fully paralysed" et al, but that's all. ASB generally isn't meant or expected to be a game where energy is a constant concern, so much as a cost to keep in mind. Anyway, if you don't want your opponent to be getting in free chills then you can make a strategy around it, generally, but it's usually not going to actually matter.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:59 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

The thing with giga impact/solarbeam/etc. is you don't actually lose an attack, so you can actually be spending that action doing /anything/. You're just fsr choosing to chill on it. So banning chill is just random.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:05 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

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Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
This was essentially my thought regarding chilling on Hyper Beam/Giga Impact recovery turn and Solarbeam charging turn. In Hyper Beam/Giga Impact's cases, they're already tired from the attack, so they're already chilling from that in a sense. Maybe you could ref them as regaining a small amount of energy, but personally I'd take that out of the energy cost for the attack itself. And as for Solarbeam and any other charge turn moves I'm forgetting, the user is already putting all their concentration into preparing for the next action's attack, I don't think they could reasonably be expected to relax enough to regain any energy during that.
If hyper beam and giga impact actually have a recovery turn/solarbeam has a charging turn, they're not actually charging. They're preparing/recovering from the attack. If they're fired in one action, then the chill afterwards is different; they're not chilling on the recovery/charging action at all, because that action doesn't exist. This wouldn't be a chilling problem; it would be a re/charge problem, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kratos Aurion View Post
I see where you're coming from, but it just seems inconsistent with the other recovery moves. You aren't just sleeping, as you would be if you got hit with spore. You are recovering health every action. That requires expending energy. Why is it okay to expend energy and regain it at the same time for rest, but not for recover? It's really more a consistency/flavor concern on my part than it is any huge problem with rest being imbalanced. Like I said, if you spent all of the energy on one turn and then did "nothing" on the following two, chilling would make sense because the energy expenditure has stopped.
But you're still sleeping, and from the way rest is ordered, you're not expending the full action or "resting" (as a move) anymore; if rest itself was meant to take up all three actions, it would be rest ~ rest ~ rest instead of rest ~ whatever ~ whatever. It's not okay for recover because recover takes one action and it uses that action.

EDIT: I think allie explains this a lot better than I can, actually.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:12 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

That still seems like recovering all at once instead of over a duration makes more sense, though. If all the recovery is already done then there's definitely no reason not to be able to chill/sleep talk/whatever! And the total energy expenditure/health regained is the same, so really, the only other difference is when the expenditure/healing happens (and thus means it's possible for the rester to KO itself immediately if its energy is low enough—although ideally you wouldn't use rest then anyway—as opposed to getting a few more actions in before EKO might eventually occur).

I dunno, I guess that's just why I always preferred one-shot rest. Yes, as it stands you are allowed to perform other actions during rest's latter two turns, but why, if you are devoting energy to gradual recovery? Why, mechanically, is that different from recover's spend energy + recover health? The potential massive energy drain issue makes the spread-out rest a little easier on people than one-shot, but it just... makes less sense to me. IDK.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

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Originally Posted by Kratos Aurion View Post
That still seems like recovering all at once instead of over a duration makes more sense, though. If all the recovery is already done then there's definitely no reason not to be able to chill/sleep talk/whatever! And the total energy expenditure/health regained is the same, so really, the only other difference is when the expenditure/healing happens (and thus means it's possible for the rester to KO itself immediately if its energy is low enough—although ideally you wouldn't use rest then anyway—as opposed to getting a few more actions in before EKO might eventually occur).

I dunno, I guess that's just why I always preferred one-shot rest. Yes, as it stands you are allowed to perform other actions during rest's latter two turns, but why, if you are devoting energy to gradual recovery? The potential massive energy drain issue makes the spread-out rest a little easier on people than one-shot, but it just... makes less sense to me. IDK.
I'm actually completely fine with one-shot rest, so that works for me.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:23 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

Perfect way to balance it: energy drain all in one shot, healing is gradual! If you're made to wake up early, sucks to be you! You "set up" the healing to happen on the first action so you can passively heal on the next two while still doing things. It's the worst (cost-wise) of both interpretations, therefore being self-balancing.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:23 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

Yeh I'm good with one-turn rest too.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

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Originally Posted by allitersonance View Post
Perfect way to balance it: energy drain all in one shot, healing is gradual! If you're made to wake up early, sucks to be you! You "set up" the healing to happen on the first action so you can passively heal on the next two while still doing things. It's the worst (cost-wise) of both interpretations, therefore being self-balancing.
it's still usable, which is kind of remarkable tbh, and ... given the archetypal use-case (just KO'd something, running low on hp, still a good tankful of energy), that seems p okay.

I mean, the main disadvantage of one-shot rest is arranging to wake early to obviate the main cost of rest, so
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:33 AM
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Default Re: On Chill

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Originally Posted by allitersonance View Post
Perfect way to balance it: energy drain all in one shot, healing is gradual! If you're made to wake up early, sucks to be you! You "set up" the healing to happen on the first action so you can passively heal on the next two while still doing things. It's the worst (cost-wise) of both interpretations, therefore being self-balancing.
Iii'm not so sure about that. I think one-shot rest works a little better in logic. Spending all your energy "setting up" the healing sounds awkward; you're healing one-third in that first action, but you're spending the other two-thirds of your energy basically just falling asleep.
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