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  #1  
Old 07-05-2015, 07:13 PM
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Default Balance

So, one of the great things about ASB is things can be balanced out where in-game they kinda aren't so balanced. For example, abilities like Run Away, Stench, Pickup, etc. would normally be kinda useless, so they've been edited to have nicer effects for battle. There are still some abilities, though, that could be made more usable. And the other way around, too - there are some abilities that are overpowered and need some way of balancing them out.

I'm gonna mention some abilities we've been stuck on, but if you've got any other in mind feel free to bring them up. We'd also love ideas on just how to fix them.

Protean - Limit type-change to once per round? (could possibly make it even more OP...)
Contrary - Make stat changes last x rounds? Make them invert after they fade?
Telepathy - This one is only useful in doubles... iirc Walker had a good suggestion for it but I can't remember. Note it should only effect it in singles.
Sybmiosis - Not sure if it needs to be altered, really, but if there are ideas, why not...

Now, there are also attacks that need balancing out...

Trick Room - Currently we've removed the part that reverses command order. I kinda wish there were some nicer way of making it less OP though, if anyone's got ideas.

Opinions welcome!
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2015, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Balance

Quote:
Originally Posted by pathos View Post
Telepathy - This one is only useful in doubles... iirc Walker had a good suggestion for it but I can't remember. Note it should only effect it in singles.
(The suggestion was to make it so that the Telepathy Pokémon can act on conditionals on its opponent's moves without having to wait for them to move, in singles only. I'll comment on the rest later.)
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: Balance

Protean - You don't get STAB on any moves, regardless of whether you've become the same type as the move you're using.

Contrary - self-inflicted stat changes are not affected by this ability - for example, using Leaf Storm would still lower your Special Attack two stages, and using Curse would still raise your Attack and Defense but lower your Speed, but being hit by a Screech attack would raise your Defense by two stages.
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[23:36:02] ConcertofMadness: Shrekt
ConcertofMadness was muted by BoTTT Junior for 7 minutes. (Contained banned phrase)
[23:36:15] +Chuppa Cross: oh dingram
[23:36:20] +Chuppa Cross: can we ban rekt too
[23:36:25] @dingram: but i use rekt :(
[23:36:32] +Chuppa Cross: you shouldn't :(
[23:36:52] +Chuppa Cross: you cant ban shrekt and then still use rekt lol
Chuppa Cross was muted by BoTTT Junior for 7 minutes. (Contained banned phrase)
[23:37:00] Superbird: #REKT
[23:37:01] @dingram: noobs getting muted
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[23:37:06] stealthfox2: lol
ConcertofMadness was unmuted by dingram.
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[23:37:13] ConcertofMadness: Freedom
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2015, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Balance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbird View Post
Contrary - self-inflicted stat changes are not affected by this ability - for example, using Leaf Storm would still lower your Special Attack two stages, and using Curse would still raise your Attack and Defense but lower your Speed, but being hit by a Screech attack would raise your Defense by two stages.
I'm not really a fan of this idea, because it makes Contrary more of a hindrance than a help. No one would ever actually use a move like Screech against a Pokémon with Contrary, but they would use a move like Swagger. I believe self-inflicted boosts should be allowed, but they should cap at +2 or +3 for a stat, or only last for x number of rounds.
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Old 07-06-2015, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: Balance

For Protean, maybe the Pokemon could have reduced STAB (in the area of 1.15-1.2x the base power), regardless of what type they are currently. Sort of like a reverse Adaptability? And/or every time it changes its type, the shift could add a 1% energy cost to the move.
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  #6  
Old 07-06-2015, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: Balance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbird View Post
Protean - You don't get STAB on any moves, regardless of whether you've become the same type as the move you're using.
I like this one a lot. First I was thinking it might not really address the problem, but it might be a decent enough drawback and it makes great flavour sense. (The Pokémon's constantly switching types, so it's lost any affiliation it might have had with any elemental energies at all, or something.) I think it's something we could at least try.
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  #7  
Old 07-06-2015, 04:02 AM
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Default Re: Balance

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Originally Posted by Eifie View Post
I like this one a lot. First I was thinking it might not really address the problem, but it might be a decent enough drawback and it makes great flavour sense. (The Pokémon's constantly switching types, so it's lost any affiliation it might have had with any elemental energies at all, or something.) I think it's something we could at least try.
Doesn't it kinda make it... too underpowered, though? What if it kept the STAB from its original type?
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  #8  
Old 07-06-2015, 04:31 AM
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Default Re: Balance

Quote:
Originally Posted by pathos View Post
Doesn't it kinda make it... too underpowered, though? What if it kept the STAB from its original type?
I fail to see how that would underpower Protean - it would just turn it from an offensive ability to a defensive ability, that would allow strategic alteration of type in order to guard against super-effective attacks.
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For those in ASB Battles that I happen to be reffing, I have several habits that deviate from most other refs. These can be found in this document, and involve mostly stat modifications and status conditions, as well as other clarifications regarding the specifics of certain attacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokémon Showdown VGC
[02:22:35] +Superbird: ok seriously tho can I get some opinions on modern art
[02:22:42] +Superbird: its important
[02:23:18] @amr97: Modern art includes artistic works produced during the period extending roughly from the 1860s to the 1970s, and denotes the style and philosophy of the art produced during that era.
[02:23:20] @amr97: The term is usually associated with art in which the traditions of the past have been thrown aside in a spirit of experimentation.
[02:24:26] +Superbird: opinions, amr97, not definitions
[02:24:49] @amr97: oh
[02:24:52] @amr97: i don't get it
[02:24:56] @amr97: is my opinion
[02:25:04] +Superbird: oh ffs
[02:25:28] +Superbird: maybe i should give up and try a different room
[02:25:32] @amr97: probably tbh
[02:26:19] @SamVGC: i think this chatroom
[02:26:22] @SamVGC: is an art form
[02:26:26] @Dog-for-Dinner: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Opinions+on+Modern+Art
[02:26:47] +Superbird: dong-for-dinner that is not a thing to be goggled
[02:26:50] +Superbird: *dog
[02:26:51] +Superbird: *google
[02:27:02] @amr97: dong-for-dinner lmao
[02:27:07] @amr97: that had to be intentional
[02:27:18] +Superbird: 100% wasn't
[02:27:28] +Superbird: i'm so used to typing dingram's name that
[02:27:45] +Superbird: anything starting with the same first letter
[02:28:17] @Dog-for-Dinner: why is it not a thing to be googled
[02:28:23] @Dog-for-Dinner: google is the story of my high school
[02:28:33] +Superbird: you dont google opinions
[02:28:36] +Superbird: you google facts
[02:28:52] @Dog-for-Dinner: seems like a science student is trying to study humanities
[02:28:56] @Dog-for-Dinner: and is having a hard time
[02:29:00] +Superbird: ^
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:04 AM
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Default Re: Balance

What about Gale Wings? It only affects like five or six moves, but the ones that stand out the most are Aerial Ace, Brave Bird, and Acrobatics. Combine that with STAB and a Flying Gem, the ability can take out about a fifth of health in a single action.
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2015, 10:16 PM
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Default Re: Balance

I don't think Gale Wings is a problem. The scenario you came up with would work without Gale Wings, only without priority, which is a lot less gamebreaking in ASB than it is in the actual games. I agree with no stab (at all) on protean.
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  #11  
Old 07-06-2015, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Balance

I agree with Superbird re: Protean and LotF re: Gale Wings: I don't really see Gale Wings as much of a problem (and actually passed up on HA Fletchling because I thought it was underwhelming). We can certainly keep an eye on it, though; if you notice it getting out of hand anywhere, let the staff know!
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Old 07-14-2015, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Balance

Though it will probably be a while before we see a Hidden Ability Dragonite around, Multiscale seems woefully underpowered in ASB. Could we perhaps change it so it's in effect until the Pokemon drops below 75% health? Or 50% but make it .75 of the damage instead of .5?
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Old 07-16-2015, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Balance

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Originally Posted by Eta Carinae View Post
Though it will probably be a while before we see a Hidden Ability Dragonite around, Multiscale seems woefully underpowered in ASB. Could we perhaps change it so it's in effect until the Pokemon drops below 75% health? Or 50% but make it .75 of the damage instead of .5?
I agree that Multiscale is pretty underwhelming; as it is now, an opponent can just game it by using a weak utility move like Thief or Nuzzle where the 2-3% blocked won't really be missed, and then the ability's worthless unless the Pokemon finds a way to heal back up to full (unlikely). I think that your suggested improvements are a little too over-the-top, though. If I'm doing my math right, the first one gives a Multiscale Pokemon an effective 125% health, and the second gives ~116%. My suggestion would be to change it to halving the final damage of the first move that would deal more than 10% (or 12%?) damage, so it would become a sort of reverse Sturdy. It's a bit of a stretch flavor-wise and doesn't fit that well with the actual game mechanics, though.

As for the abilities listed in the OP, I like the suggestion there about having changes affected by Contrary invert when they fade (though I think not all refs have the changes fade? Contrary could be a special case where, like, all changes invert in two rounds or something.) Then stat-lowering moves wouldn't be completely irrelevant - you could still Screech or Fake Tears a Contrary Pokemon if you're okay with waiting a few rounds for the boosts to turn into drops - and you can still "boost" up with Leaf Storm or Superpower if you're ready for those +6 boosts to turn into -6 drops after a few actions of being a super-tank (the damage you can deal in that time is limited by caps, too.) Other than that, I like Walker's suggestion on Telepathy and Superbird's on Protean.

While we're talking about abilities only effective in doubles, though: Flower Veil could be changed, but I don't have any ideas that don't make it really good, since if it affected the Flabebe family too it would basically be a free Clear Body + status immunity. Friend Guard is mostly underwhelming even when it activates, since the utility attacks you would be directly targeting an ally with for whatever reason just don't do enough damage for a 25% damage reduction to be worth it in most cases, and spread moves already factor in the spread damage reduction. (Suggested changes: all moves targeting allies do .8-.9x the damage? All moves targeting allies do .75x but the Friend Guard Pokemon takes the rest of the damage? Allies take no damage from this Pokemon's moves, like a reverse Telepathy?)

Also, uh... Plus and Minus are useless when you aren't in a double battle with another Plus or Minus, but when you are it's very powerful, so idk if that needs to be changed. I guess Regenerator, Unnerve, and Natural Cure also fall into this boat, the latter two less so, in that they're all really good in really rare situations - I guess Flower Veil would be in this camp too. I think Healer is just generally not very good right now, though; I would suggest making it affect the user only in singles, which would make it a quasi-Shed Skin: Healer can heal allies in doubles/triples, but can't heal the user in those battles, and can't do the two-actions-status-curing thing. I don't think Healer is distributed widely enough for this to be overpowered, either.

As for other abilities that aren't that usable: I find Intimidate to be a little underwhelming because it pretty much only activates at the beginning of battle and even then doesn't do anything half the time because the Intimidate Pokemon was already on the field when its opponent was sent out. I get this matches with game mechanics, but I don't think it makes flavor sense or balances well in ASB where sendouts are much less frequent, and its effect when it does activate isn't gamebreaking or anything. Rain Dish barely recovers enough health/energy to recoup the cost from using Rain Dance in the first place, and that's assuming the opponent doesn't change the weather in the middle; maybe it could be changed to 2% health/energy after each round, or just a flat 4-5% health? Magma Armor is kind of useless because freezing isn't very common in ASB and is much less powerful than in the games when it does happen, but all the Pokemon that get it have better options and idk if it would be worth changing/what it could be changed to. Also, Grass Pelt is useless because Skiddo and Gogoat don't even learn Grassy Terrain, but I guess that just means you shouldn't get a hidden ability Skiddo. The Speed boosts that Weak Armor grants are nice at first, but once you've reached a certain threshold getting faster doesn't help - maybe limit the number of times it can activate in a battle? Only Garbodor gets it as a normal ability, though, so I don't think it really needs to be changed.

(tl;dr: Multiscale, Friend Guard, Intimidate, Rain Dish, Magma Armor, and Grass Pelt, and Healer and Flower Veil to some extent, are all pretty bad right now, and some other abilities are good but only in specific, rare situations (so they probably don't need to be changed.) I'm not sure if I'm being overly change-happy here? I get that ASB tries to stick to the game as much as possible, but I think at least considering some of these changes would make them more balanced/worthwhile.)
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Old 07-16-2015, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Balance

Hummm....

Flower Veil/Healer - perhaps if a pokemon with these abilities is used in singles, other pokes used afterwards will gain their effect?

Friend Guard - I kind of think a reverse Telepathy is the best way to go with this tbh. Not sure about singles and I'm too tired/brain-hurty to think more on it now...

Plus/Minus - perhaps these pokes could gain a really small boost to electric attacks, like x1.1? That only happens when there isn't the other ability around.

Regenerator and Natural Cure are both pretty good imo, actually... Not sure about Unnerve. Berries are pretty hard to use effectively in ASB but not sure what else to do, hr.

Intimidate - Maybe increase the attack drop to -2? It still only happens at the beginning of battle but it will fade more slowly. Alternatively we could have it activate on the first occasion a physical/contact move is used - or it could be a 'commanded' activation? I.e. the trainer has to tell the pokemon when to use Intimidate (doesn't take up an action though).

Rain Dish - hrn it's supposed to work like Water Absorb so you can absorb standing water, I think. :V dunno why that isn't in the flavour though...

Magma Armor - hum. maybe just giving it +1 def? or a small resistance to water or ice, idk.

Grass Pelt - maybe if the pokemon is just on a grassy arena. :\ otherwise it's pretty useless.

Weak Armor - I'm not sure about changing this one, or how... I guess the speed could go up by +2 for every single drop of defense but, idk.
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Old 07-17-2015, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: Balance

For intimidate, I like the idea of it causing moves that rely on fear, like scary face and roar, to be more effective. Also, you could have it activate on each new pokémon the opponent sends out, rather than just affecting the opponent on the intimidate user's initial send-out. It makes sense flavour wise, too.
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Old 07-17-2015, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Balance

I don't see why Rain Dish is unbalanced? You get free healing in rain, a lot of things can cause rain. Maybe a small health gain when water of any kind hits the dish part, but no damage reduction if it's an attack/field effect?

What if Plus and Minus had an effect similar to Volt Absorb in singles/battles where they're the only one with the ability, where an Electric attack/arena effect will immediately act as a free Charge boost (maybe without the Special Defense boost)? The attack or effect could still cause damage as well. Like their polarity is siphoning off some power to boost their next Electric attack. And if another Plus/Minus Pokemon is in the area, the polarities are just boosting attacks between themselves, and normal electricity affects them as usual.

Who's going to be using a ton of Electric attacks against any Plus/Minus Pokemon besides maybe Klink? It's about as situational as Volt Absorb, I think it'd work
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Old 07-17-2015, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Balance

On the topic of being change happy: I don't think it's a problem at all, as long as we don't make changes every other day. A large balancing update is a good idea if we cover everything we need/want, and if the community agrees over it. Personally, I will always check thoroughly through any Pokemon's movepool and ability before buying it and think of some effective strategies, but that process would become moot if we applied unexpected changes every week. It's also hard to keep the battlers, referees and db up to date. Therefor, I think now, while the community is alive and well, is a good time to think of those changes (changes in the nature of moves would also be welcome).

That being said, in my opinion, the points brought up for now seem healthy balance-wise. My thoughts on doubles-efficient abilities are that we should keep 'em a little underpowered in singles seeing how potent they become in doubles (which is common enough).
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Old 07-17-2015, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Balance

double post because i can't edit: Event moves, especially Dream World moves would be a great addition, too. Lots of gimmicky goodies in there.
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Old 07-18-2015, 12:20 AM
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Default Re: Balance

I honestly don't understand the need to go around changing every ability that has a niche meant for doubles to have a use in singles, too. Like, Plus and Minus combined in doubles is really good and that's where it's meant to be used. I kind of get it for less impressive abilities like Friend Guard (which ASB seems to have nerfed?), but for Plus and Minus I'm kind of against it, really. Some abilities are not as readily great as others and I think that's fine, because it leaves room for people to try cooler things with different strategies. I mean, I've never seen anybody have a problem with Klutz, which has a very gimmicky and niche usage.
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Old 08-04-2015, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: Balance

Posting again because hey, does anyone else think that Flash Fire has been unnecessarily nerfed from how it is in the games? Like, +10 Base Power is just like a one-stage stat boost, and it's not like it's that easy to trigger Flash Fire. I mean, Overgrow and the like haven't been changed at all even though the threshold makes them extremely powerful (probably very overpowered, tbh) in ASB, so why Flash Fire? All Pokémon with Flash Fire resist Fire moves except Heatran, and unlike Motor Drive and such Flash Fire can only be activated once, so reducing the boost so much here is... weird.
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