Parental love.

So...did I mention that I don't quite understand this concept? I question why parents love their kids, and why the kids are expected to love their parents in return, because for some reason certain people have become quite serious when I told them that I don't love my parents.

So here's my theory: I hate kids. Other than for reproduction and shortlived happiness, kids tend to be useless at everything that is not being a pain in the ass. I see no other logical reason for getting kids than just reproduction. Is it really logical to want to be exposed to an emotional, psychological and economical rollercoaster for the next 20 years of your life? Is it really worth the sleepless nights, the diapers, the expensive toys, the horrible trips to some themepark infested with consumerism, the teenage hate and moodswings? Not to mention the complete lack of freedom. It's not logical, kids as I see it only function to spread your genes (and we're already 7 billion, it's not like we need any more) and as such any feelings for them are only there to make sure they don't die too early. And sure, they might turn out to be some wonderful polite youngling who actually is interesting, and as such you have a proper reason to find them likable. That's okay, but not quite a good enough reason.
You want love and affection? There are 7 fucking billion people on this earth, and yet you find the simplest solution to find someone who will love you to create someone to love you? Just no... You love someone so much you want to have their children? Now, look at what I just wrote. Do you really want to subject the love of your life to that kind of torture? Didn't think so.

Basically, what I'm saying is that having kids for any other reason than what your whole purpose of existing, to reproduce, makes little sense to me.

Moving on, this should explain why I don't understand parental love, those feelings are just genetical functions that might develop over time. So this leads me to question why I, as a child should love my parents. Because I've felt the urge to love my parents as many times as I've felt the presence of "God". Never. What reasons could I possibly have to love them unconditionally? They created me? Umm, yes, by random chance, they never made a choice, all they did was decide to have another kid and just let it happen. Nothing fancier than that. They fed me, clothed me and gave me a home? Well sure, that's nice and all, I'd probably be dead if not for that, but that should be a moral responsibility for any parent. If you don't want the kid or can't handle it, just give it away to adoption. If you have a child, you should consider what that will mean and if you're able to make it. They love me? So because they have some kind of feeling towards me, I should reflect that feeling? Must I answer this?

In short: I see no reason to have kids, as such I don't quite follow the logic of "loving" said kids from a non-biological perspective, other than if they just happen to be lovable for whatever reason (being cute, smart, interesting etc.) and I definately don't see why I should love my parents, other than for any lovable characteristics.

Discuss. Give me viewpoints. Enlighten me! I apologize for any misunderstandings or breaking of set rules that might have occured in this post, critique, though seemingly harsh, is useful, so I would appreciate it. I tend to prefer discussions over debates since they're freer and less aggressive but if you feel the urge of convincing me of something, by all means, go ahead. And go!

Being a parent means you have an emotional bond with the little squirm of flesh and blood you brought onto the world. Without you guiding it, the child is nothing. Personally I love children and really want to be a dad someday, but I disagree with a couple of your propositions.

Is it really worth the sleepless nights, the diapers, the expensive toys, the horrible trips to some themepark infested with consumerism, the teenage hate and moodswings?

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When you build a website, do you expect it to work first time?

Why do you need to buy expensive toys and go to theme parks with your children? Many people get along just fine without them.

Children are children. They are not able yet to concern themselves with the well-being of their parents. That's a guiding process and it has to be learned, it's not innate (unless you have a child who really matures early - that's rare).

For me the idea that I've helped and guided someone from a baby to being a proper decent human being means I've done something good for someone in the future. Children need their parental love to become good functioning adults.

So the take-home message for me is: if you want to have kids and be a good parent, be a good parent. But if you don't, and you're too lazy or have other priorities, don't get kids and for the love of god use rubbers. Kids aren't spoilt because they are spoilt, they're spoilt because parents are dedicating more time to themselves and less to their children and leaving their offspring unsupervised when they should be supervising them.

You should love your parents because they gave you the opportunity to live in a prosperous nation and because they gave you all the tools to succeed in life. They, if they were good parents, and I hope they were good parents, should have shown you all the ropes to be a succesful and kind human being in life. You owe everything you have to them, because without them raising you, you wouldn't be here as you know it.

I honestly don't understand your confusion on this issue. I dislike kids, sure, but it really boils down to instincts. Look at dogs. They protect their kids and raise them because of instinct. That's all there is to it. Some humans have that instinct, others don't. There really isn't anything confusing about it.

Loving your parents is a different issue. I suppose it boils down to things such as empathy, and how your parents treated you.

Tarvos said:

Being a parent means you have an emotional bond with the little squirm of flesh and blood you brought onto the world. Without you guiding it, the child is nothing. Personally I love children and really want to be a dad someday, but I disagree with a couple of your propositions.



When you build a website, do you expect it to work first time?

Why do you need to buy expensive toys and go to theme parks with your children? Many people get along just fine without them.

Children are children. They are not able yet to concern themselves with the well-being of their parents. That's a guiding process and it has to be learned, it's not innate (unless you have a child who really matures early - that's rare).

For me the idea that I've helped and guided someone from a baby to being a proper decent human being means I've done something good for someone in the future. Children need their parental love to become good functioning adults.

So the take-home message for me is: if you want to have kids and be a good parent, be a good parent. But if you don't, and you're too lazy or have other priorities, don't get kids and for the love of god use rubbers. Kids aren't spoilt because they are spoilt, they're spoilt because parents are dedicating more time to themselves and less to their children and leaving their offspring unsupervised when they should be supervising them.

You should love your parents because they gave you the opportunity to live in a prosperous nation and because they gave you all the tools to succeed in life. They, if they were good parents, and I hope they were good parents, should have shown you all the ropes to be a succesful and kind human being in life. You owe everything you have to them, because without them raising you, you wouldn't be here as you know it.

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Those are some good points, but I kind of feel like the fact that they raised me and made me human so to say, also falls into the "moral responsibility"-area.

Pathos said:

I honestly don't understand your confusion on this issue. I dislike kids, sure, but it really boils down to instincts. Look at dogs. They protect their kids and raise them because of instinct. That's all there is to it. Some humans have that instinct, others don't. There really isn't anything confusing about it.

Loving your parents is a different issue. I suppose it boils down to things such as empathy, and how your parents treated you.

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You know, somehow my own opinion evaded me. I look at it from a somewhat biological viewpoint, yet I don't realize why parents "love" you, how silly of me. I forgot to take into account that as the humans we are, our behaviours are usually masked by feelings and "deeper meanings", which in this case means that "love" is just the masked or human form of the instinct of reproduction and survival.

Tarvos said:

Being a parent means you have an emotional bond with the little squirm of flesh and blood you brought onto the world.

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I know adoptive parents who're absolutely excellent and love their kids every bit as much as parents with biological children. People are great and 'doing stuff because our genes tell us to' is rubbish. It's likely I won't be biologically related to any hypothetical kids I may have, but I'd love them as much.

I don't have kids and so I don't really understand parental love, but I love my parents because they're great, and my parents love me and my sister because we're completely brilliant.

Dannichu said:

People are great and 'doing stuff because our genes tell us to' is rubbish.

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Uhm? Why is it rubbish? People being great doesn't mean they're not doing it because their genes 'tell' them to. You don't seem to object to dogs being great even though they're clearly doing it because instincts. (It's also not that simple; someone having the instinctual desire to have kids doesn't mean poof they're good parents, it just means they get pleasure from having kids and love them.)

I love children. I hate teenagers*. I don't want to have kids knowing that they'll grow up and become stupid.

*Teenagers including me as a teenager. I was damn stupid up until 18.

When I was eighteen, I was amazed at how stupid my father was. At twenty-one, I was amazed at how much he had learned in the three years.

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Yeah, that's a thing. But anyway.

As well as the sentimental reasons, which are, I feel, more valid and harder to explain, there's also the point that people have children to look after them when they get all old and senile. Children are valuable insurance in this regard. Apparently, it's why people in third world countries have so many children-to ensure that someone will look after them when they're elderly.

Cerberus said:

I love children. I hate teenagers*. I don't want to have kids knowing that they'll grow up and become stupid.

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And hey, this isn't an insult or a blanket statement applied to an entire demographic!

Good job, I hate those things.

Coroxn said:

And hey, this isn't an insult or a blanket statement applied to an entire demographic!

Good job, I hate those things.

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Well I didn't mean as an insult and I believe especially here at TCoD there are teenagers which I like. I should rephrase my dislike for "teenagers-who-succumb-to-consumerism-and-wanna-be-cool-image-and-like-justin-bieber-and-what-not-or-whatever-the-hell-I-am-trying-to-say", so yeah I can't really explain which I like.

But... At least for ME... My worst years were when I was a teen. :P I had my reasons, though.

Nanabshuckle8 said:

I question why parents love their kids, and why the kids are expected to love their parents in return

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Tarvos said:

Being a parent means you have an emotional bond with the little squirm of flesh and blood you brought onto the world.

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HahahahaHAHAHA I love how the world often seems to take this kind of thing for granted. Sure, a lot of people do love their kids, but it's most certainly not a sure thing. But I digress.

I figure the reason most parents are fond of their kids, be they biological or otherwise, is because that's how it's evolved to be. The parents raise the kids, prepare them for the world at large. The kid then has plenty of knowledge and skills to survive to the next generation and pass on their genes. As to why kids are expected to reciprocate, partially for the same reason and partially because most people have some ingrained sense of "fairness", which is to say they figure that the care they're brought up with should be displayed in return; otherwise it wouldn't be fair and that just wouldn't do, would it.

(And I'm often really bad at organizing my thoughts into coherent statements so if there's any huge problems or something just let me know)

Nanabshuckle8 said:

So here's my theory: I hate kids. Other than for reproduction and shortlived happiness, kids tend to be useless at everything that is not being a pain in the ass. I see no other logical reason for getting kids than just reproduction. Is it really logical to want to be exposed to an emotional, psychological and economical rollercoaster for the next 20 years of your life? Is it really worth the sleepless nights, the diapers, the expensive toys, the horrible trips to some themepark infested with consumerism, the teenage hate and moodswings? Not to mention the complete lack of freedom.

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okay, come on. you're not even trying to represent what people could possibly find enjoyable about having children, and at least some of those things aren't even necessary (like, the terrible thing that consumerism apparently is). don't you think people enjoy being able to care for someone, educate them, shelter them and introduce them to various experiences throughout their lives? what about watching a child grow into an adult from birth - this is more or less only something parents or people close to a child can really experience. what part of raising a child is 'shortlived happiness'? if people enjoy raising kids, they're probably going to enjoy raising the kid as long as they have to, which is probably upwards of ten years? hardly 'shortlived'. notice how I said 'people' and not 'you' - you might find kids abhorrent, but without making some attempt to view a situation critically and from someone else's perspective then yeah you aren't really going to get what's going on.

It's not logical, kids as I see it only function to spread your genes (and we're already 7 billion, it's not like we need any more) and as such any feelings for them are only there to make sure they don't die too early. And sure, they might turn out to be some wonderful polite youngling who actually is interesting, and as such you have a proper reason to find them likable. That's okay, but not quite a good enough reason.

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This is honestly kind of ridiculous to me. It's not as though children grow up to be vacouos balls of flesh that just flail around, bumping into things. children develop personalities and interests and dislikes and fears and hopes and dreams: they grow up to become people, after all. Do you not find people likable? I was a spoiled little brat as a child and yet somehow my mum's managed to put up with that and is one of my closest friends. Don't you think that parents might have affection for children because people can actually find children likable just like any other person? Why is that not a good enough reason? You already don't like kids so you're biased; while it might not be a good enough reason for you, it might be a perfectly good reason for someone else. Parents finding their children likable - who, might I add, have (probably) been cared for by them, raised by them with their ideals - seems no less logical as anyone finding anyone else likable. I mean, they're already probably biased to like their own kids more anyway, as there is a connotation of children being the product of their parents (however true that is).

You want love and affection? There are 7 fucking billion people on this earth, and yet you find the simplest solution to find someone who will love you to create someone to love you? Just no... You love someone so much you want to have their children? Now, look at what I just wrote. Do you really want to subject the love of your life to that kind of torture? Didn't think so.

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wow because children don't happen by accident and generally people who want kids aren't willing to go through 'that kind of torture' to have kids, right? Do you have a different opinion of people who want to adopt, since they're not creating more people?

Moving on, this should explain why I don't understand parental love, those feelings are just genetical functions that might develop over time. So this leads me to question why I, as a child should love my parents. Because I've felt the urge to love my parents as many times as I've felt the presence of "God". Never. What reasons could I possibly have to love them unconditionally? They created me? Umm, yes, by random chance, they never made a choice, all they did was decide to have another kid and just let it happen. Nothing fancier than that. They fed me, clothed me and gave me a home? Well sure, that's nice and all, I'd probably be dead if not for that, but that should be a moral responsibility for any parent. If you don't want the kid or can't handle it, just give it away to adoption. If you have a child, you should consider what that will mean and if you're able to make it. They love me? So because they have some kind of feeling towards me, I should reflect that feeling? Must I answer this?

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well no you aren't exactly obliged to love your parents if you find them abhorrent or whatever, sure. I mean if you're kind of indifferent to them and they love you, I guess that's kinda sad but you can't help it I guess?
also your position on adoption is kind of ridiculously simplistic. while you might not feel much attachment towards children, some people really, really do and 'if you can't handle it/don't want it, give it up for adoption' is really oversimplified - there are multiple issues at play here, like instinct, obligation to look after your children (like you yourself mentioned earlier), social stigma, feelings of inadequacy and so on. many find adoption absolutely heartbreaking!

In short: I see no reason to have kids, as such I don't quite follow the logic of "loving" said kids from a non-biological perspective, other than if they just happen to be lovable for whatever reason (being cute, smart, interesting etc.)

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what other non-biological reason is there to love anybody apart from them having qualities that you find lovable?

Cerberus said:

Well I didn't mean as an insult and I believe especially here at TCoD there are teenagers which I like. I should rephrase my dislike for "teenagers-who-succumb-to-consumerism-and-wanna-be-cool-image-and-like-justin-bieber-and-what-not-or-whatever-the-hell-I-am-trying-to-say", so yeah I can't really explain which I like.

But... At least for ME... My worst years were when I was a teen. :P I had my reasons, though.

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Okay, forgiven. But just to have you know what you hate is kind of a really small part of someone that just gets shown a lot, there aren't a lot of people who are purely 100% a stereotype and absolutely nothing else.

To the OP: you're 16, and I assume you are still in high school, living with your parents.

Parents are human. There are good parents and bad, and sometimes a middle, just like anyone else. I was adopted in third grade by my stepfather. Thing is, he raised me since I was a baby. My biological father became abusive to my mother. She divorced him a few months into her pregnancy. He had visitation rights, and child support. He didn't want to pay child support. So he gave up any rights to me (a court fee of around $70 at the time.)

All I was ever worth to my father was seventy fucking dollars.

Instead, my stepfather gave me his name, raised me as my own, coached all my sports, paid for me to go to the best schools. And even though as I got older we started to hate each other, once I moved out we've become much closer. My mother had uterine cancer and a hysterectomy. My stepfather never had any children of his own. And since he loves my mother and won't leave her he never will. He has never held this against me.

Loving a child isn't just instinct its a choice. A choice my biological father gave up, and this man I call Dad made.

I hated my dad when I was in high school, but once I moved out.. I realized this.

ultraviolet said:

okay, come on. you're not even trying to represent what people could possibly find enjoyable about having children, and at least some of those things aren't even necessary (like, the terrible thing that consumerism apparently is). don't you think people enjoy being able to care for someone, educate them, shelter them and introduce them to various experiences throughout their lives? what about watching a child grow into an adult from birth - this is more or less only something parents or people close to a child can really experience. what part of raising a child is 'shortlived happiness'? if people enjoy raising kids, they're probably going to enjoy raising the kid as long as they have to, which is probably upwards of ten years? hardly 'shortlived'. notice how I said 'people' and not 'you' - you might find kids abhorrent, but without making some attempt to view a situation critically and from someone else's perspective then yeah you aren't really going to get what's going on.

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Aah, very correct, I apologize for my stupidity, and I'm happy you pointed it out (is there a word in some language for being apologetic and grateful at the same time?). And yes, there are many good things about kids as well, and at times even I can randomly drift into thoughts about having kids and how awesome it could be. Then again those thoghts usually only account for the positive things only. So yeah, that was a fail on my part ^^;

ultraviolet said:

This is honestly kind of ridiculous to me. It's not as though children grow up to be vacouos balls of flesh that just flail around, bumping into things. children develop personalities and interests and dislikes and fears and hopes and dreams: they grow up to become people, after all. Do you not find people likable? I was a spoiled little brat as a child and yet somehow my mum's managed to put up with that and is one of my closest friends. Don't you think that parents might have affection for children because people can actually find children likable just like any other person? Why is that not a good enough reason? You already don't like kids so you're biased; while it might not be a good enough reason for you, it might be a perfectly good reason for someone else. Parents finding their children likable - who, might I add, have (probably) been cared for by them, raised by them with their ideals - seems no less logical as anyone finding anyone else likable. I mean, they're already probably biased to like their own kids more anyway, as there is a connotation of children being the product of their parents (however true that is).

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Okay, so this basically comes down to weighing the pros and cons of children and personal preference. Then yes, my argument does seem quite silly. Good point, my argument is hereby overproved.

ultraviolet said:

wow because children don't happen by accident and generally people who want kids aren't willing to go through 'that kind of torture' to have kids, right? Do you have a different opinion of people who want to adopt, since they're not creating more people?

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I should rephrase: It just seems a bit tough going through so much for that kind of reason (though I highly doubt anyone would do it just because of that reason). I suppose adoption makes a bit more sense if you for some reason can't get kids by yourself or if the mother is unwilling to go through the birth (for some reason), then again, that won't be your own child so it won't really carry on the family in the biological sense. Once again, good point.

ultraviolet said:

well no you aren't exactly obliged to love your parents if you find them abhorrent or whatever, sure. I mean if you're kind of indifferent to them and they love you, I guess that's kinda sad but you can't help it I guess?
also your position on adoption is kind of ridiculously simplistic. while you might not feel much attachment towards children, some people really, really do and 'if you can't handle it/don't want it, give it up for adoption' is really oversimplified - there are multiple issues at play here, like instinct, obligation to look after your children (like you yourself mentioned earlier), social stigma, feelings of inadequacy and so on. many find adoption absolutely heartbreaking!

what other non-biological reason is there to love anybody apart from them having qualities that you find lovable?

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Why would it be sad? If I have no proper reason to do so, it would be irrational to love someone. I suppose my view on adoption is a bit narrow yes. When I think about it, basically all our actions and feelings are biological, so my own statement is wrong, so non-biological reasons don't quite exist. In the end, we can have any reason what so ever to love somebody/thing and sometimes it can be hard to understand why or how bacause to others it might not make sense.

People are, on average, more fond of people that they know very well. Even if you wouldn't find them especially likeable if they were a stranger and you were just meeting them today, having known them for a long time tends to make you understand how they work and think better and generally be more sympathetic towards them. Parents (and siblings) are generally people that you've known your whole life, and on the flip side, parents have generally known their children since their birth or not too many years after it. It's perfectly logical for there to be a fondness there even apart from their general compatibility as people.

I love kids, but I understand your argument. You birth this kid into the world, it gives you momentary happiness, then simply becomes an economic and psychological burden. They constantly get into trouble, want your money and seem to live only to annoy you in every possible way.

The fact that you don't love your parents does not make you a bad person; it simply states that you don't share the primordial compassion that exists between human beings that links us together. To call you heartless is idiotic, but you should understand that loving your parents is simply a sign of thanks for the things they have done and endured to allow you to grow up in the environment you did. I love my parents as thanks for the things they have provided for me. If you feel your parents haven't provided you anything or if they haven't raised you to the best of their ability, you are entitled to say "you don't live them."

the thing about parents and children is that they are people. Nothing is simple with people.