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Super Mario 64 - anyone else share my sentiments?

Autumn

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So I'm a pretty big fan of SM64. It was one of the very first video games I ever played - although I didn't own it - and I was extremely happy when I bought it back in like 2009 or something for my recently-obtained N64. It's extremely addictive and fun and I know lots of people share my sentiments - it's Super Mario 64. Buggy as it is, with such a ridiculous physics engine that makes it possible to glitch up the endless stairs and beat the game with 50 stars (or 31, or 16... or 0 if you're a TASer), it's still a terrific play and I love it.

And yet... I simultaneously hate it. I have ever since I beat the game and got all 120 stars for the first time back in 2009 or whenever it was. There are a lot of things about that game that make me feel... unsettled, I guess, is the word, every time I play it. I have an inexplicable phobia of video game glitches and proof that games are unfinished - while I adore reading the Dummied Out, Urban Legend of Zelda, Game-Breaking Bug and Unwinnable pages on TVTropes I often make the mistake of reading them late at night and find myself unable to sleep for hours. Don't ask me why this is; I have no idea. My best idea so far is that I'm actually a robot and to a robot fear of glitches lines up with the idea of fear of death, pain or the unknown for humans, but of course that's an Epileptic Tree. But anyway - I find that a lot of things regarding Super Mario 64 manage to induce this unsettled, irrationally-scared feeling in me. I'm wondering if thinking about these things that bother me causes anyone else to feel similarly.

The first thing that bothers me is how empty the game feels. The game takes place in and around Peach's castle, with the border of the game world being the grassy hills surrounding the castle. To me this always gave me an incredibly closed-in feeling, as if Mario were trapped in a world from which he could not escape, not even into the several levels hidden behind the castle's paintings. By contrast, Super Mario Galaxy (the only other 3D Mario game I've played) feels much more open - despite having the same world boundaries (in spirit, anyway - point is you have a hub area leading to all the levels) it just feels more open and free because of the whole space locale. Not that I'm faulting SM64 for not taking place in space - I think the problem is that it almost feels like there's nothing to do. In both Galaxy and SM64 there is absolutely nothing to do in the levels after getting all 120 stars, but somehow the levels in SM64 feel much more enclosed than in Galaxy. Perhaps it's because the SM64 levels don't change between missions, whereas the linear-ness of Galaxy's levels means each mission has a different layout? Maybe because none of SM64's main levels possess secret stars (100 coins in each level is not 'secret') whereas Galaxy's do? I don't know. Point is, I always felt uncomfortably claustrophobic thinking about SM64's universe.

No doubt that feeling is compounded by the general loneliness of the locale. Between beginning the game and beating Bowser, the only characters with which Mario can interact on a positive level are the pink Bob-ombs (which all say the same thing anyway) and the Toads, only three of which ever need to be interacted with for completion - they do absolutely nothing for you, unlike in Galaxy where they show up in several levels and give you extremely helpful information or Stars and allow use of their ship in the level. In addition, Galaxy also has Rosalina and Luigi to interact with, not to mention the many Lumas, so as to make the game feel less lonely. Super Mario 64 just drops you into the game with no real directive beyond "find stars, save the princess" and no indication of what this means on a larger scale (how is finding stars supposed to help? or is it because of the many doors requiring a given number of stars to open? well, seeing as how it's possible to bypass all of these requirements to beat Bowser with 16 stars...) whereas Galaxy at least attempts to explain away why you're finding stars in that game, and provides a sense of scale for your accomplishments. SM64 just sort of... is. You get next to no help in your efforts, and nobody ever acknowledges what you've done save Yoshi on the roof - who promptly flies away, but not before giving you 99 unnecessary lives. Not like he did a whole lot. Mario never reacts to anything except for when he dies, either. This, combined with the claustrophobic sense mentioned earlier, almost gives me the impression that the SM64 world is some sort of twisted, ironic place - a bright and happy land of fun things, but one from which Mario cannot escape and no one ever acknowledges his existence. Like some sort of self-contained nightmare. That's the feeling I always got playing this game, anyhow.

In addition, I feel like this game made very little attempt to be very light-hearted. Big Boo's Haunt was almost unbeatable for me for a time because I was scared shitless of the piano and the Boos. While there are similar ghost-themed levels in Galaxy, these levels seem more geared toward the light-heartedness the rest of the game seems to possess - the Boos have their tongues hanging out, which kind of seems reminiscent of dogs and makes them seem less like scary ghosts and more like adorable dog-puff-things. The ones in SM64 - tongueless, I may add - slowly chase you with that horrid cackle of theirs, and half the time you can't see them because of the way the camera is stopped. Not to mention the many eyeballs - which I never had a problem with but it seems like others did - and the flying books and chairs. The entire level is supposed to be spooky, and for what is otherwise meant to be a light-hearted Mario game it pulls that off in such a way that I refused to touch the level with a ten-foot pole for a very long time. Of course, that level is not the only one with such creepy things that don't express light-heartedness - how many people were afraid of the eel in Jolly Roger Bay? How about the fish in Tiny Huge Island? I get unsettled being in Wet-Dry World, Hazy Maze Cave and Jolly Roger Bay for reasons I can't explain.

Finally I find the game unsettling because, everywhere you look, there is evidence of that which never came to light and that which makes you wonder the programmers' intent. The evidence of things that were Dummied Out or otherwise questionable things include the stacks in the mirror room and the top of the volcano, the dead fire-spitters, metal cap and switch in Wet-Dry World's downtown (which can in fact be activated... more on that later), the toxic treasure chest in Jolly Roger Bay, "Dizzy Island" in Tiny Huge Island, and the sign in the art gallery that says "Shh! Walk quietly in the art gallery." And, finally, the tunnel that leads to literally nowhere in the midst of Hazy Maze Cave's maze - a tunnel you would be unlikely to stumble across unless you read about it, for it blends in with the wall texture.

All that is indicative of an unfinished game or unfinished designs... but even more mysterious is what was left in the game but not meant to be discovered. The most prominent of these things is the pipe leading into the town in Wet-Dry World. Before the DS remake offered the ability to get into this pipe from the town even as the water was drained, it was thought impossible to get in when the town was dry. Some tried swimming up very quickly from the crystal changing the water level to jump in the pipe, with no success. Others tried using the invisibility cap - again to no avail. Finally a way was discovered. On a rooftop nearby the pipe, there is a fire-spitter. By getting onto this roof and getting burned by the fire-spitter, one can run around on this rooftop to gain speed, then make a very specific jump toward the wall by the pipe, then jump off the wall to grab the grating by the pipe.

Here's the thing about the fire-spitter. There is no reason to be up on that roof. It's steep enough that you slide off normally (necessitating getting burned to build speed), so why is there a fire-spitter on a roof no one would access? To help players get in the pipe, perhaps?...

One would think. But then you get into the pipe and enough weird glitchiness happens that there's no way the developers intended you to be able to get in there with the pipe dry. So then what the hell is the point of the fire spitter?

Additionally, in the town, there are dead fire-spitters, as well as a metal cap and a switch which spawns a block inside the cage leading to the one star you need the invisibility cap to get to. Thing is, the star can easily be reached without use of the block, and the metal cap has no uses anywhere. It was discovered by some people messing with the dry pipe trick that it is possible to raise and lower the water in the town without the use of crystals. The dead fire-spitters reactivate when the water moves beneath the floor. It was also realized that, if the water at its lowest point with a crystal were just high enough that Mario had to swim, then the switch creating the block would be necessary to get to the star... and the metal cap would be needed to hit the switch! So it's almost as if this was all indicative of some difference in water physics in this area from production to the finished product... but what?

The overly unfinished feel and the utter lack of a post-game are definite contributors to my unease regarding this game. That, the non-light-hearted feel, and the sense of claustrophobia are things I've been mulling over for a long time... but I've never known anyone to share my feelings. (Well, it doesn't help that some of my feelings are borderline crazy. For instance, the "you just found a secret" jingle inexplicably scares me.) Which is why I'm finally posting here. Thoughts?
 
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There comes a time when all games eventually lose their luster. The best advice I can possibly give to you is to look for a new game.
 
I do feel the same way with SM64. I still haven't beaten it, but it feels kind of empty in some spots. Also, I wonder how people even figure out how to get some stars without using a walkthrough or guide. I sometimes get so frustrated with the game I just turn it off.
 
There comes a time when all games eventually lose their luster. The best advice I can possibly give to you is to look for a new game.

I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. Saying the game was "empty" wasn't my way of saying I was sick of it; the world of the game has always felt empty to me for as long as I've been playing the game. And I'm certainly not sick of it. I was trying to say the game environment made me uneasy and I was wondering if anyone else agrees.

I do feel the same way with SM64. I still haven't beaten it, but it feels kind of empty in some spots. Also, I wonder how people even figure out how to get some stars without using a walkthrough or guide. I sometimes get so frustrated with the game I just turn it off.

Exploration. :D what stars were you stuck on?
 
I don't think the game feels empty, I mean Bowser took everyone and imprisoned them inside the paintings, so obviously there's no one in the castle.

Regarding the worlds themselves, it isn't a huge issue anyways because SM64's difficulty is a product of map design, not enemy placement. So there's no need to have tons of enemies and NPCs.
 
I don't think the game feels empty, I mean Bowser took everyone and imprisoned them inside the paintings, so obviously there's no one in the castle.

But even in the paintings there's very few characters with which you can interact positively.
 
But even in the paintings there's very few characters with which you can interact positively.

Do you know how many characters you can have a positive interaction with in Super Mario World, which is the previous game in the series? One: Yoshi.

Positive interactions are more meant for RPGs, where interactions unlock stuff. SM64 is a platformer through and through. And you actually have quite a few character interactions in the game, positive or negative. The Pink Bob-Ombs, King Bob-Omb in Bob-Omb Battlefield, the owl in Whomp's Fortress, the snowman and the penguins in Cool, Cool Mountain, the vulture in Shifting Sand Land, the giant snowman in Snowman's Land, the monkey in Tall, Tall Mountain, Wiggler in Tiny-Huge Island. Also, the rabbit in the castle and the various Toads that give you tips.

Games like Donkey Kong 64 and Conker's Bad Fur Day have more interactions, but they came much later than SM64.
 
thinking about it, even though this is one of my favorite games i have that same feeling about it being empty. on the other hand super mario galaxy felt really clustered and there was too much to do. super mario sunshine balances that perfectly.
 
Do you know how many characters you can have a positive interaction with in Super Mario World, which is the previous game in the series? One: Yoshi.

I never played Super Mario World but I suppose that's a fair point.

SM64 is a platformer through and through.

Kirby 64 seems to have more positive interactions and less of an 'empty' feel than SM64 and it's a platformer too...

And you actually have quite a few character interactions in the game, positive or negative.

I'm referring to positive interactions specifically because negative ones usually denote enemies which obviously aren't on Mario's side. The lack of consistent positive character interactions just makes the game feel lonely to me.

on the other hand super mario galaxy felt really clustered and there was too much to do.

Hmm, really? I guess I can see that, but overall I find it a better play than SM64 even though SM64 is still one of my favorite games.

super mario sunshine balances that perfectly.

Never played it. I tried to watch a Let's Play once (by one of my favorite LP'ers; I watched his Galaxy LP before I ever played Galaxy and SM64 before I ever owned it) but got bored...
 
The first thing that bothers me is how empty the game feels. The game takes place in and around Peach's castle, with the border of the game world being the grassy hills surrounding the castle. To me this always gave me an incredibly closed-in feeling, as if Mario were trapped in a world from which he could not escape, not even into the several levels hidden behind the castle's paintings. By contrast, Super Mario Galaxy (the only other 3D Mario game I've played) feels much more open - despite having the same world boundaries (in spirit, anyway - point is you have a hub area leading to all the levels) it just feels more open and free because of the whole space locale. Not that I'm faulting SM64 for not taking place in space - I think the problem is that it almost feels like there's nothing to do.
I've played SM64 maybe once or twice in my life (hey I grew up with Spyro the Dragon and Crash Bandicoot, so wtfever) and I have always had this weird feeling whenever I've played it. Like the hub area castle place is so devoid of anything but mario, it's so weird.

I also have a horrible fear of glitches in games (moreso when I was younger, though). I remember accidentally knocking my gold/silver cartridges by accident and everything going all weird and being really terrified.
Positive interactions are more meant for RPGs, where interactions unlock stuff. SM64 is a platformer through and through.
I disagree! If you look at the first Rayman (1995) and Spyro the Dragon (1998) games, they're also fundamentally platformers, and also have a huge number of positive character interactions. Spyro is more or less based around this, because you're saving other dragons all over the place. Rayman doesn't have a whole lot of NPCs, but the levels are so full of things to poke and interact with and be killed by (frequently humorously), there's hardly any way you can feel lonely in that game, and the NPCs you do talk to are basically with you for the entire game (the magician pops up in basically every level somewhere).
 
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I never played Super Mario World but I suppose that's a fair point.

Hahaha you should! Before Super Mario Sunshine it was Mario alone vs. an entire army of Goombas, Koopas, Piranha Plants, Boos, Thwomps, Bullet Bills and whatever Bowser threw at you. Great fun. =D

SMB3's storyline: Bowser turned the kings of the worlds into animals and Mario must defeat the Koopalings to revert the spells. Later on Bowser kidnaps the Princess and Mario must venture into the Dark World to save her (didn't put this in spoiler tags because that's what happens in every Mario game). The rest is pure gameplay. I myself never got past World 8, because you can't save in SMB3 and by then I was exhausted. The game doesn't feel empty but that's because there are tons of memorable enemies and hazards. I've never played anything past SM64 but I believe SMB3 is the absolute best in the series in terms of content and gameplay and Nintendo will have to pull something special out of the hat to best it. This game is the reason why Mario fans keep asking Nintendo to put Tanooki and Hammer Bros. suits in the latest games.

I've played SM64 maybe once or twice in my life (hey I grew up with Spyro the Dragon and Crash Bandicoot, so wtfever) and I have always had this weird feeling whenever I've played it. Like the hub area castle place is so devoid of anything but mario, it's so weird.

You had no childhood. =(
 
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You had no childhood. =(
Actually, my childhood was fucking awesome because I spent literally every day flying around, breathing fire, collecting gemstones and saving other dragons. And when I wasn't doing that I was running and jumping and collecting fruit and spinning the bejeezus out of literally every other thing alive.

Nintendo is not fundamental to a good videogame childhood, and I really wish everyone would stop acting like it is. (also mario is frickin weird to someone who's never played it before. seriously, try to look at mario with an outside perspective. at least spyro made some kind of sense).
 
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Perhaps what creeps me out the most is the outside of the castle is just... so sparse. And the N64's primitive 3D graphics do little to help it out. It feels plain and weird.

You are also not alone in being afraid of glitches. I used to be terrified of glitches. I'm not sure why, but they just frightened me horribly. I didn't know about all the dummied out stuff in SM64, though, I gotta check out that.
 
Nintendo is not fundamental to a good videogame childhood, and I really wish everyone would stop acting like it is.

this
i mean technically it's nintendo by extension, but my entire childhood basically consisted of running to the right as a little blue guy and time-travelling as a spiky red-haired swordsman. oddly enough, mario never really came into my life until i was almost 10.
 
Actually, my childhood was fucking awesome because I spent literally every day flying around, breathing fire, collecting gemstones and saving other dragons. And when I wasn't doing that I was running and jumping and collecting fruit and spinning the bejeezus out of literally every other thing alive.

Nintendo is not fundamental to a good videogame childhood, and I really wish everyone would stop acting like it is. (also mario is frickin weird to someone who's never played it before. seriously, try to look at mario with an outside perspective. at least spyro made some kind of sense).

Well I just made a light-hearted comment.

Nintendo isn't really fundamental. But Mario is!

Perhaps what creeps me out the most is the outside of the castle is just... so sparse. And the N64's primitive 3D graphics do little to help it out. It feels plain and weird.

You are also not alone in being afraid of glitches. I used to be terrified of glitches. I'm not sure why, but they just frightened me horribly. I didn't know about all the dummied out stuff in SM64, though, I gotta check out that.

Not more primitive than PSX or even the SNES with the Super FX games and Super Mario RPG.

Interestingly the first time I was creeped out by glitches was with Pokémon. Missingno. felt like a thing of the devil and there were rumours that catching it would permanently damage the cartridge.

I'm a bit of a N64 fanboy so pardon me for any heated defense of the console.
 
Actually, my childhood was fucking awesome because I spent literally every day flying around, breathing fire, collecting gemstones and saving other dragons. And when I wasn't doing that I was running and jumping and collecting fruit and spinning the bejeezus out of literally every other thing alive.

Nintendo is not fundamental to a good videogame childhood, and I really wish everyone would stop acting like it is. (also mario is frickin weird to someone who's never played it before. seriously, try to look at mario with an outside perspective. at least spyro made some kind of sense).

Gonna barge in here and agree with this.

I get looks like I ate a small rodent in front of them from people when I say that I almost never played video games or watched tv as a kid. I didn't watch cartoons much, just Animal Planet, and I didn't play anything non-Pokemon on a handheld for very long until Final Fantasy Tactics Advance came out. I played Spyro and Final Fantasy on my stepdad's Playstation. I never had a Nintendo console of my own until the Wii and even then it's not even mine technically, it's my fiancee's. I have never played a Mario game all the way and I only finished Minish Cap for LoZ games. My only console at all is a PS2. I had a very nice childhood.

Nintendo is nice but it's not god you guys.

sorry for the derail guys askjdldgk;sd
 
Nintendo isn't really fundamental. But Mario is!
that's basically the same thing
when has mario ever not been on a nintendo console
also it... obviously isn't as evidenced by all the people who didn't grow up with mario
Not more primitive than PSX or even the SNES with the Super FX games and Super Mario RPG.

I'm a bit of a N64 fanboy so pardon me for any heated defense of the console.
... nobody said that the N64 was particularly more primitive than any of the other consoles. o.o just that it was primitive. Like we're not getting up in arms and saying the N64 is terrible or anything! but 'you had no childhood' is what you hear from basically everybody when you didn't grow up with N64. It's kind of rude, and most people who say this (not necessarily you specifically) haven't even used a PSX or something.
 
No lie I loved reading what you wrote and I understand you completely. I often explore after beating it though, like in red and blue versions. The games were so expansive and yet there was little to nothing to do after beating it. I didn't like that, I kept playing even though I wandered aimlessly, hoping to find an extra place or little secret. All to no avail, it strangely depressed me
 
that's basically the same thing
when has mario ever not been on a nintendo console
also it... obviously isn't as evidenced by all the people who didn't grow up with mario

... nobody said that the N64 was particularly more primitive than any of the other consoles. o.o just that it was primitive. Like we're not getting up in arms and saying the N64 is terrible or anything! but 'you had no childhood' is what you hear from basically everybody when you didn't grow up with N64. It's kind of rude, and most people who say this (not necessarily you specifically) haven't even used a PSX or something.

I think you're getting too heated up over something I meant more as a joke than anything... It wasn't my intention to argue with you.

Although I do believe that a video game childhood without either Mario or Sonic, or even Donkey Kong, isn't complete. There's a reason why Crash Bandicoot isn't nearly as well-known as either of the aforementioned mascots.

About the 3D capabilities of the N64, there's stuff it did better than comparable PC games and stuff it did worse. When it was released, 3D PC gaming was only starting to take off as well and wasn't much better graphically speaking. However, the biggest limitation of the console was the minuscule texture cache size. With more detailed textures, even the rudimentary 3D models and environments of the N64 are rather pretty to look at, judging by the texture hacks for N64 emulators. Also, if only the N64 had a faster processor... Perfect Dark on high-res mode with playable framerates would've been amazing, as the Xbox 360 remake demonstrates.

The PSX games were aimed at a more mature public anyway. Making the N64 a kiddy console (the only really mature N64 game was Conker's Bad Fur Day) was one of Nintendo's biggest mistakes. The failure to acknowledge a growing mature gamer public cost them dearly.

But still, the N64 wasn't as memorable as the SNES. =D
 
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