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Ableist language

Haircuts? Art? Skydiving? Masturbation? Debating the policy towards ableism on a pokémon forum?

Haircuts - more attractive to attract potential mates, also less lice.

Art - a way of earning money to live, and psychological satisfaction for the viewers.

Skydiving - the curiosity of experimenting this is from the drive of curiosity to know things, because the knowledge of skydiving might be helpful someday. Also working your muscles and yay for myoglobin and other sciency stuff about exercise being good.

Masturbation - physical and psychological satisfaction, higher sexual potency.

Debating - psychological satisfaction by knowing your opinion is SUPERIOR to others.

Not every specific example counts (sloths sometimes slow their metabolisms down so much they starve to death with a full stomach), especially humans since we're not that adapted to live in this environment of society and stuff (which is why people are being anti-me even though it doesn't help their survival).

there is this thing known as the paralympics

Convince able-bodied people to play wheelchair basketball.

Accommodating people also doesn't mean fucking everyone else over.

But not accomodating them also isn't "fucking them over". Also,

But consider: archery exists. Weight-lifting is easy to adjust to the speeds someone can actually go at.

Changing your cirriculum to different sports is a pretty big deal.

At the moment it looks like you're having a hell of a time figuring out that people with disabilities are people. Not everyone's body works ideally! Sometimes the bits that don't work quite right (or quite like everyone else's) include the brain. It happens. Doesn't make people with disabilities less people than people without.

True. They are considered under the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights". But the fact is that other people also are, and they have the "right" to play non-wheelchair basketball (if it's in the public school's curriculum), and while the disabled people do they physically can't because of no one's fault. Accomodating people is very nice, but it's not an obligation.

js I do accomodate less abled people
 
So I saw these posts of a kind that I dislike where people completely misuse science in pursuit of their argument and wrote most of a big rant about how terrible I think that is. But then I was like "Wait, it's like 3:30 AM, you should just save what you've written, go to bed, and decide if it's worth posting in the morning." But then I refreshed the thread and saw that this nonsense was still going on and getting more ridiculous and then I realized that no, there would be no sleep. Sorry to go off on you like this, because it's not like this is the first time I've seen this kind of thing go on; in the future I'll just link to this post when I see it happening and start getting angry.

"Evolution" does not have a direct effect on an individual's temperament, personality, and above all personal choice and actions. An individual's behavior is not somehow "optimized" for superior survival and reproduction, and everything that one does is absolutely not directly related to survival and reproduction, and this is especially the case with humans, who have all this funky culture-y stuff sitting on top of our genetic behaviors and causing us to do damn strange things from time to time. One can definitely conjecture about why, for example, the drive to create art might be advantageous for the human species as a whole, but trying to link that to the fact that you felt like you wanted to doodle in class today is pointless. You do not doodle in class because this is what evolution has built you to do anymore than you doodle in class because cosmic events caused the earth to be formed in such a way as to support the development of intelligent life, boring lectures and, eventually, pencils. I mean, yes, there is some truth to that statement; you certainly would not be doodling if some teensy self-replicating thing had not appeared out of the primordial stew billions of years ago. Nevertheless, an understanding of the descent of life as we know it does not really do much to enrich one's appreciations behind the specific causes of your behavior at that time.

All that aside, it's almost always a bad idea to bring up scientific studies in this kind of context for many reasons:

1) It's inevitably Not that Simple; the study of altruism and its potential evolutionary purpose is a lively field, full of deliciously passive-aggressive research papers about how theory X is wrong but my theory Y over here is totally legit, for example. It's not like "Science has found the answer!!!" here.
2) Our understanding of what makes animals, human or otherwise, tick beyond the very most basic level, is still extremely primitive, and most of it is likely wrong.
3) Experiments that attempt to study these sorts of things are especially prone to methodological problems and creative results interpretation, often because questions about human behavior and evolution have a tendency to be experimentally intractable.
4) Human behavior is not well-represented by that of any other species. Our species appears to rely on culture to guide our behavior far more than any other species on earth. Attempting to draw conclusions about human behavior based on animal behavior is therefore a very dicey business.

But most especially,

5) Science is not a prescriptive tool. It has no ethical dimension; it deals, as best it can, in facts and laws. So when you say, "science says this, therefore it is GOOD/BAD that I do X," you are almost always doing it wrong. Science can only say, "X happens," and if we're super-lucky, "X happens because of Y," or even, "if X happens, then Y will happen." But that does not make X happening a desirable or undesirable thing. Say that there is evolutionary pressure towards people being self-interested. Does that mean that it is good to be self-interested? I don't know! Certainly the statement "there is evolutionary pressure towards being self-interested" doesn't say that. When you say that science suggests an underlying cause behind something that you or someone else does, if you then go on to state that this is somehow right or wrong, please understand that you are making a leap that the facts do not support. You are operating under the unstated assumption that what is in accordance with natural selection is automatically right/only to be expected/"just the way things are," and that assumption can be debated and attacked in its own right. And we can come to that point only if we accept the further assumption that evolution has any kind of relevant bearing on the day-to-day lives of individuals (not very likely, in my opinion).

I apologize for going off on a huge snarky tangent over a pretty minor comment or two, but whenever I see people trying to bring up SCIENCE!!! in these sorts of debates it almost invariably gives me the sads. If you're feeling the itch to pull a "but SCIENCE!! says!" in a debate, please take a moment to really consider what SCIENCE!! actually says, and whether you are actually coloring scientific fact with your own interpretations and value judgments, which may or may not be shared by the other people in the debate and can certainly be argued over. And if you ever feel the need to state as a fact some sweeping generalization about how people behave that is in fact hotly debated among scientists and only tangentially related to your claim without providing any sort of citations or explicating your actual argument, please envision your favorite scientist (we'll say Einstein if you're at a loss) drifting out of your computer screen and smacking you with a rolled-up copy of Nature. And then don't make the post.
 
If that's how you speak when you're angry you must be an amazing person because I actually felt happy reading that.

Anyway, what you say is true, we don't know too much about psychology (especially of animals), we are not designed to function in a society with culture and stuff (I kind of mentioned that), and science does not have ethical implications.

The thing is, I'm not saying that helping disabled people is unethical. I'm saying that not helping the disabled isn't unethical, because, well, I want to live well. I'm not saying that disabled people are burdens to people's well being, but if I find it bothersome to deal with them then I don't think I am morally abhorrent.

Oh, and I'm far too lazy of a person to find citations for this kind of argument. Q_Q
 
The thing is, I'm not saying that helping disabled people is unethical. I'm saying that not helping the disabled isn't unethical, because, well, I want to live well. I'm not saying that disabled people are burdens to people's well being, but if I find it bothersome to deal with them then I don't think I am morally abhorrent.

what if you went to school one day and you were in english class and your english teacher said "Okay, students, I want each of you to draw the scene that you think is most important in X book. You will be graded on the quality of your artistic ability." what would you do.

Oh, and I'm far too lazy of a person to find citations for this kind of argument. Q_Q

then don't expect people to take you seriously at all
 
what if you went to school one day and you were in english class and your english teacher said "Okay, students, I want each of you to draw the scene that you think is most important in X book. You will be graded on the quality of your artistic ability." what would you do.

I'm only the worst art student in the year because all the worse students don't take Art. English is mandatory, and there're some worse drawers in my Engilsh class...

Anyway I don't think that was your point. I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but I really can't imagine a scenario like that, because I just know it won't happen. =/
 
I'm only the worst art student in the year because all the worse students don't take Art. English is mandatory, and there're some worse drawers in my Engilsh class...
Really not getting why this is relevant.
I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but I really can't imagine a scenario like that, because I just know it won't happen. =/
It's not particularly difficult to discern why said scenario wouldn't happen.
 
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I'm only the worst art student in the year because all the worse students don't take Art. English is mandatory, and there're some worse drawers in my Engilsh class...

Anyway I don't think that was your point.

no. not at all.

I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but I really can't imagine a scenario like that, because I just know it won't happen. =/

exactly
 
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I'm pretty sure Poly's argument is trying to show how it feels from that point of view. You say you're the worst in art class right? (Whether the worse people don't do it or what is irrelevant for right now) You are placed at a disadvantage to other students. If this was a very direct metaphor, other students may even tease you or ignore you because your painting wasnt up to snuff. Naturally you don't want people being mean to you, but a lifetime of this would leave you wanting to just be equal. (Granted I don't have a mental illness or physical handicap, but i know people who do and this is how I imagine it would be.) Helping the disabled doesn't mean all the other art classes would have to perform worse, but you'd appreciate it if you at least had a fair chance.

Now, the difference between art and a disability is that with practice, you would become better, even great if you really had the time and commitment to it. Unfortunately, it isn't the same for disabilities, and if you are autistic or have muscular dystrophy or whatever, that's something about you that isn't able to be negated.

The quote comes into mind about judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree. If someone really physically can not do something and can't help it, it isn't fair to judge them to the same standards.

If someone is failing a class because they don't try, by all means give them a big shiny F, but if someone is failing class because their brains are literally unable to work that way, you put them in a different class.

In my school district they typically have a few classes specifically for the mentally disabled, tailored to the best way for them to learn. That wouldn't "hinder" your lifestyle, now would it?

That's my two cents anyway.
 
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first off why haven't we addressed this

And yes, I guess I am ignorant to some degree of people who suffer from the supposed ableism brought up; but I would really just stay happy in the knowledge that I am of higher intelligence than people with mental illness, because they have nothing to do with me and I don't really care if they exist or even worse, use it as an excuse to hinder everyone else.

because yo. yo??? YO excuse me did you really just say that people with mental illness are less intelligent than you. i am straight up pissed off and I want an apology stat because you have just insinuated that because me and a lot of my friends are not wired the same as you are we are stupider. actually you didn't insinuate it you outright said it. that is Not Ok

anyway

The thing is, I'm not saying that helping disabled people is unethical. I'm saying that not helping the disabled isn't unethical, because, well, I want to live well. I'm not saying that disabled people are burdens to people's well being, but if I find it bothersome to deal with them then I don't think I am morally abhorrent.

this here wigs me out

because you're saying that occasionally working with a disabled person's limits will restrict your ability to 'live well.'

like no one wants you to break your legs so you don't have an advantage over people in wheelchairs, here

you want to live well. but so do the people with disabilities. it is not 'morally abhorrent' that you don't constantly accommodate for disabled people, but it is morally abhorrent that in today's society people with disabilities are given the short end of the stick because of something out of their control. it is downright Wrong that a person with a disability can't live life to the same extent as an abled person just because they have that disability.

we're not going to force able people to play wheelchair basketball but why then do we force disabled people to live with activities that they can't physically perform
 
yiran you're not even presenting, like, well-formed arguments. or any sort of argument at all. you're just saying things like, "these human beings are burdensome to me, and I am Not Unethical for not caring about them"

you're making me really sad so stop this please
 
yiran you're not even presenting, like, well-formed arguments. or any sort of argument at all. you're just saying things like, "these human beings are burdensome to me, and I am Not Unethical for not caring about them"

you're making me really sad so stop this please

I agree, yiran, most of your arguments seem to be derived from your personal, opinionated view on things rather than any intelligence about how school systems actually work or how disabled people actually work. You're honestly presenting yourself as sociopath. Don't make me go into how your claims are basically the same sort of tactics and arguments that you would hear from, say, a rascist.
 
Now, the difference between art and a disability is that with practice, you would become better, even great if you really had the time and commitment to it. Unfortunately, it isn't the same for disabilities, and if you are autistic or have muscular dystrophy or whatever, that's something about you that isn't able to be negated.

The quote comes into mind about judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree. If someone really physically can not do something and can't help it, it isn't fair to judge them to the same standards.

If someone is failing a class because they don't try, by all means give them a big shiny F, but if someone is failing class because their brains are literally unable to work that way, you put them in a different class.

Actually, I try very hard for art, but I still am the worst. Probably because my school has this category which "grades" you for effort, so effort doesn't go into the actual grade...

But I agree with you, you should put them in a different class to suit them better, if it doesn't "hinder" anyone else that is unrelated.

because yo. yo??? YO excuse me did you really just say that people with mental illness are less intelligent than you. i am straight up pissed off and I want an apology stat because you have just insinuated that because me and a lot of my friends are not wired the same as you are we are stupider. actually you didn't insinuate it you outright said it. that is Not Ok

Okay, I should have worded it better, because it was under the condition of one of Butterfree's sentences and I should have added an "if". And I also meant "cognitive disabilities" rather than "mental illnesses". So sorry for offending you.

you want to live well. but so do the people with disabilities. it is not 'morally abhorrent' that you don't constantly accommodate for disabled people, but it is morally abhorrent that in today's society people with disabilities are given the short end of the stick because of something out of their control. it is downright Wrong that a person with a disability can't live life to the same extent as an abled person just because they have that disability.

I'm all for the physically disabled to hav education. The thing is, there's just things they can't do. For instance, a person has a less common affliction, perhaps the lack of fingers. Should the school completely change their art course to be possible for the person who has no fingers because the person cannot draw with brushes, pastels, and pens? I'd think not. While I do realise that it is out of their control, it is also out of others' control. So the others don't have the responsibility to make them go through it.

we're not going to force able people to play wheelchair basketball but why then do we force disabled people to live with activities that they can't physically perform

Are you saying that we should make activities like non-wheelchair basketball to not exist in public schools? I'm not really getting what you're saying here.

yiran you're not even presenting, like, well-formed arguments. or any sort of argument at all.

Where are yours?

Also the difference between a racist and me, a supposed "ableist", would be that race has little to do with a person's actual ability to do anything but whether a person is competent or not is a major factor in people's ability to do productive tasks.
 
yiran said:
Are you saying that we should make activities like non-wheelchair basketball to not exist in public schools? I'm not really getting what you're saying here.
NO.

yiran said:
I'm all for the physically disabled to hav education. The thing is, there's just things they can't do. For instance, a person has a less common affliction, perhaps the lack of fingers. Should the school completely change their art course to be possible for the person who has no fingers because the person cannot draw with brushes, pastels, and pens?
NO.

Nobody is saying these things. You're not even arguing against anything anyone is saying anymore, you just keep making convoluted strawman arguments in which you're not actually replying to anyone but yourself. Then you click 'post' and everyone goes ??? and sighs in frustration.

In the same vein (and what this thread is actually about), you are not losing any rights by people asking you to not use certain words. If anything, you're infringing upon someone else's right to feel safe and comfortable at this forum by continuing to use words that upset them. I'm pretty sure you said at the start of this thread that you didn't actually have a problem with not using certain language when asked not to, so I don't even know why this is still going.
 
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If I'm misinterpreting things, it is my fault, although I don't really get how. (Maybe people could specify more on things such as what "the short end of the stick" means? Judging by your response, I don't think what I've said really responded to the actual meaning of that.) But may you please point out how my argument is a strawman one? It may be misdirected, but I don't think it's strawman (people use that term way too much in arguments nowadays as just a term to demean the opponent when not actually pointing things out =/ )

And if you want me to be back on the main topic,
If anything, you're infringing upon someone else's right to feel safe and comfortable at this forum by continuing to use words that upset them.
I have to disagree. Obviously, using words such as "retarded" is unacceptable, and possibly even "insane" and "crazy", but if someone asks me to stop using less severe words such as "stupid" and "mad" it's not very fair, is it?
 
I have to disagree. Obviously, using words such as "retarded" is unacceptable, and possibly even "insane" and "crazy", but if someone asks me to stop using less severe words such as "stupid" and "mad" it's not very fair, is it?

How can you decide what is "less severe" or not? It's not your place to decide what does and does not offend someone. If someone happens to be offended by stupid or mad, then don't use those words. How is it not fair? It's more unfair for people that are legitimately triggered by/uncomfortable with stupid or mad to have to suffer through it because someone who *isn't* triggered by those words decided that they have no reason to be triggered. You CANNOT DICTATE someone else's feelings. Seriously man how is it that hard to understand??

Also: your reply to verne's post said that you'd replace 'mental illnesses' with 'cognitive disabilities' so:

yiran said:
And yes, I guess I am ignorant to some degree of people who suffer from the supposed ableism brought up; but I would really just stay happy in the knowledge that I am of higher intelligence than people with cognitive disabilities, because they have nothing to do with me and I don't really care if they exist or even worse, use it as an excuse to hinder everyone else.

an excuse AN EXCUSE JFC DID YOU SERIOUSLY GO THERE

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND DISABILITIES AT ALL DO YOU
 
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There are several hundred thousand words in the English language. If someone feels upset by your particular word choice, it isn't that hard to find an alternative. Of course, you don't necessarily have to change your diction to make others more comfortable, but you should probably want to just to appear as less of an asshat.
 
How is it not fair? It's more unfair for people that are legitimately triggered by/uncomfortable with stupid or mad to have to suffer through it because someone who *isn't* triggered by those words decided that they have no reason to be triggered. You CANNOT DICTATE someone else's feelings. Seriously man how is it that hard to understand??

I agree that there's a boundary on the language people are supposed to use, and that being directly insulting is one thing, but what if my triggers come from the word "salmon"? Or "skyscraper"? What if I am altophobic and cannot deal with the idea of cliffs or skyscrapers and it sends me into a nervous panic? Should you forbid the word skyscraper or cliff or bluff because these words trigger altophobia?

This is a thin line. I'll give you another thing, which is an actual example that happens to me. The name of my ex is relatively common and I sometimes see it pop up in other places. This triggers a whole set of anxieties and I have to block things out and completely isolate and just do something mindless to solve the problem. I have had to ask my mutual friend to not use the name and not talk about her. But it's a common name and if I see someone mentioning it here (say we're talking about venerated Swedish authors) then is it your problem that seeing the name makes me go "ughhhh", even if it's entirely out of context?

There is a whole host of examples and triggers for nervosities, depressions, anxieties and all sorts of other things I can think of that are debilitating, and we can't go around not using those words and keeping track of whether person X suffers from them but person Y does not. In part, you are going to have to accept that some words are going to be used; some things are going to appear; and some things are simply not reasonable to demand the abolition of! The word "retarded" (in English) is an example of something we can do without. But are we going to ban "stupid"? "Silly"? "Idiotic" ? No, of course not, because these words represent real, useful concepts for real, useful expressions that we are going to use. Furthermore it is not always being used in the term of an insult:

You're an EFFING IDIOT has a COMPLETELY different nuance when you say it than "this is an idiotic statement" or "Obama's views on healthcare are idiotic" or "genital circumcision of females in Africa is a crazy business" (because crazy is literally what the latter IS!).

In part, we can be civil, but in part, we also have to deal with life and take that responsibility. I am willing to go one step and say "let us not use the word retarded" or "let us not assume that we are all binary" even if that means dealing with some reflexes in writing, but at some point we have to draw the line and say STOP, this as a human being you should reasonably be able to cope with.
 
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I agree that there's a boundary on the language people are supposed to use, and that being directly insulting is one thing, but what if my triggers come from the word "salmon"? Or "skyscraper"? What if I am altophobic and cannot deal with the idea of cliffs or skyscrapers and it sends me into a nervous panic? Should you forbid the word skyscraper or cliff or bluff because these words trigger altophobia?

I figure that words like this are not triggering for as many people as words like crazy, insane, stupid, mad. If someone was legitimately triggered by salmon or skyscraper, I would try my hardest to not use that word around them, but probably not erase it entirely from my vocabulary. However words like 'crazy' and 'insane' are not only triggering for more people consistently, they also imply negative things about a subset of people and add to the idea that mental illness is something to be avoided, which is not a good way to look at things. However salmon and skyscraper do not have negative connotations - they are the name of a fish and a term for tall buildings, and do not have negative connotations - so I wouldn't see the need to take the words out of my vocabulary permanently solely because one person is triggered. Crazy and insane contribute to a negative worldview, though, which I believe is where the difference lies.

This is a thin line. I'll give you another thing, which is an actual example that happens to me. The name of my ex is relatively common and I sometimes see it pop up in other places. This triggers a whole set of anxieties and I have to block things out and completely isolate and just do something mindless to solve the problem. I have had to ask my mutual friend to not use the name and not talk about her. But it's a common name and if I see someone mentioning it here (say we're talking about venerated Swedish authors) then is it your problem that seeing the name makes me go "ughhhh", even if it's entirely out of context?

It's obviously not exactly possible to avoid a triggering word entirely unless you decide to never read writings with that word in them. But that's different from asking people not to use the word! If someone on TCoD said that the words 'stupid' or 'mad' triggered them, they would be well within their rights to ask the forum to please not use the words in public posts or when talking to them. But if they happen to read a book where one character says, "You are incredibly stupid," there's not really a whole lot they can do about that. Much like with your ex. It's unreasonable to ask that the entire world forever stop using certain words because they trigger someone, but it's not unreasonable to ask that people with whom you can get in contact and with whom you converse regularly to stop using certain words because they trigger you, at least while they're around you. That's the point I'm trying to make - if someone were to request yiran to not use a word, he would do well to not use the word, regardless of whether he thinks that triggering is 'justified' or not.
 
I agree that there's a boundary on the language people are supposed to use, and that being directly insulting is one thing, but what if my triggers come from the word "salmon"? Or "skyscraper"? What if I am altophobic and cannot deal with the idea of cliffs or skyscrapers and it sends me into a nervous panic? Should you forbid the word skyscraper or cliff or bluff because these words trigger altophobia?

What's really the point of inventing silly situations? I've never been asked to respect a trigger for something like that! If you can't tell between someone genuinely has PTSD and someone who's just having cheap laughs, that's something you need to improve on. If you can't tell, why assume the worst when someone's health is at stake? The only time I hear about weird triggers is pretty much when people invent them as strawmen.

It's kind of like with particularly unconventional pronouns. Even if they invented a set nobody else uses just to feel ~unique~ or whatever, it doesn't matter because you do it anyway just in case. You can't pretend you're good with things like this if you pick and choose.

... if someone is sent into a nervous panic because you're mentioning cliffs, yes do not mention cliffs?????? Nobody's ~forbidding~ anything, you know! It's your own responsibility to not hurt someone so massively. That was such a bad example because why would any decent person purposefully talk about skyscrapers to someone if they know it's going to hurt them.

This is a thin line. I'll give you another thing, which is an actual example that happens to me. The name of my ex is relatively common and I sometimes see it pop up in other places. This triggers a whole set of anxieties and I have to block things out and completely isolate and just do something mindless to solve the problem. I have had to ask my mutual friend to not use the name and not talk about her. But it's a common name and if I see someone mentioning it here (say we're talking about venerated Swedish authors) then is it your problem that seeing the name makes me go "ughhhh", even if it's entirely out of context?

But I'm guessing you don't actually have PTSD? And yeah, I would honestly make an effort to avoid saying a name that hurts you. ?_?
 
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