• Welcome to The Cave of Dragonflies forums, where the smallest bugs live alongside the strongest dragons.

    Guests are not able to post messages or even read certain areas of the forums. Now, that's boring, don't you think? Registration, on the other hand, is simple, completely free of charge, and does not require you to give out any personal information at all. As soon as you register, you can take part in some of the happy fun things at the forums such as posting messages, voting in polls, sending private messages to people and being told that this is where we drink tea and eat cod.

    Of course I'm not forcing you to do anything if you don't want to, but seriously, what have you got to lose? Five seconds of your life?

Question about cultures

What I'm going to ask couldn't be summarized in a good title.

Basically, what's your opinion on preserving different cultures? Are you of the opinion that even dead languages should be salvaged from disappearance? Or are you an imperialist that would rather everyone spoke the same language? Do you vouch for nationalist causes like the Basque cause? Or do you side with the ones who want everyone living under the same umbrella?

I think I know what the overwhelming majority here will answer, but here's my opinion: I think every culture has its value and should be preserved. I'm interested in learning from all the different cultures and enjoy everyone having a different identity. I mentioned the Basque Country because Spain has a large number of communities each with its own culture and sometimes language, the most well-known of which is Catalonia, but there's also Galicia, Asturias, Valencia, the aforementioned Basque Country...
 
Imperialist here. If you're not part of the Empire, then I'm sorry, but you must be assimilated.

That's just my opinion though; feel free to disagree with me. For now...
 
These cultures can continue to exist without them necessarily having to be independent states.
 
These cultures can continue to exist without them necessarily having to be independent states.

You're right, but the state thing was just an example (statehood is dependant on other factors). For some, it's a matter of mere survival. Like Gaelic language, for example, it's a "dead" language but there's a resurgence lately. In many parts of the world there's a resurgence of regional dialects and exotic languages. It makes hard for people of different places to communicate, but it gives everyone their own identity.
 
Gaelic isn't a 'dead' language! I can't speak for Irish Gaelic (but I'm certainly under the impression that it's more widely-spoken than Scottish Gaelic), but there are ~60, 000 native speakers of Scottish Gaelic living in Scotland. It's small, but it's not dead by any means! The problem is trying to get speakers to qualify as teachers for the language to try and get it as a subject in mainstream schools... it's kind of a shame. I think it's a very beautiful language, and I would have liked to have learned it at school.

Preservation of language and culture is very important! You can't make people do one thing or another just because it's '''easier''' for everyone else, after all. Variety is the spice of life.

Nationalism helps to preserve culture, but it really depends on how you look at it, I suppose... I mean the UK government didn't care at all about the preservation of Scottish Gaelic or anything like that. But with the devolved parliament we can have a closer look at these things because they're really home issues then, and I think it's starting to be something that people find important! Although I don't think that's really what nationalism is all about... a lot of it is politics and economics. Things like regional languages are only a small part of that.

The whole "oh well, but you're already part of this country why don't you just stay that way" argument is silly to me. :[ especially if the nation doesn't really represent the best interests of the region!! The Catalonian independence surge is something really interesting but I don't know as much about it as I do Scottish independence, but.

Fáilte gu Alba, hm hm. (◎`・ω・´)人(´・ω・`*)
 
Irish is a first language for over 130,000 people and a second language for around 2,000,000.

As to the question, I think that as long as there are people who want to participate in a national culture, it should be promoted and preserved. I don't necessarily hold with preserving culture for its own sake though.
 
Celtic languages are not dead, they're spoken. Tailsy and TES have discussed Scottish Gaelic and Irish - I myself am learning Breton which is spoken in France. There are plenty speakers, just look for them.

to qualify as teachers for the language to try and get it as a subject in mainstream schools...

mainstream education is crap and most people don't ever get out of language classes speaking their TL fluently; most language skills are learned outside of the classroom in my experience (having taken classes in five or six languages that is my experience). The real question is to get people to use it as a means of communication in daily life, and the problem is English has usurped that position in Scotland - and if they don't speak English they speak a local Scots dialect which still is not Gaelic.

to qualify as teachers for the language to try and get it as a subject in mainstream schools...

Independent governance is useless in most cases - it's not like exchanging Cameron for Alex Salmond is going to make Scotland any better (or worse) run. If a country is being forced to enter war or everyone should wear tinfoil hats and chew betel nuts, it's another thing. For that reason I support Kosovar and East Timorese independence and am very happy they got it - I am still undecided on Palestine because Israeli governments in the past have been whiny colonial assholes but Hamas is a piece of shit organisation and the only thing worse than a slightly oppressive Israeli government is a really oppressive sharia-influenced Muslim government; this is one reason why the euphoria over the Arab Spring pisses me off because it got the wrong parties in power.

I understand that the Scottish people are proud and they definitely deserve a measure of autonomous rights; but the better way to solve British politics is to get a better electoral system overall, not for Scotland to go sit on its own and enjoy its export of oil (which is primarily what you'll be living off, I suppose; what other industries are big in Scotland at the moment? Fishery?) The thing is, is there some sort of economic point in splitting off from the UK? What will Scotland subsist on? (That's an open question, feel free to chime in).

I mean, most Scottish people don't even speak Gaelic. They speak English (usually with a Scottish accent, which is singularly the most beautiful thing I ever have heard in my entire life) but there are no actual developments to use Scottish in daily life. It would make sense if Scottish people started having government discussions in Scottish Gaelic, it would be the main medium of instruction in schools and so on. What is really happening is you are just dissatisfied with politics in England, but nobody is satisfied with English politics at the moment. Becoming independent doesn't solve the problem of politics sucking and you're actually going to continue to use your particular brand of English as the lingua franca. So much for national identity.

And for the record, at least you get official recognition. Breton only has regional language status in France and is even more strongly oppressed and endangered; of its 200,000 speakers, 60% are over 60 years of age, bilingual Diwan schools do not get proper funding, etc.

As to the question, I think that as long as there are people who want to participate in a national culture, it should be promoted and preserved. I don't necessarily hold with preserving culture for its own sake though.

Probably most pertinent for Arab culture - you can bring your calligraphy and spicy foods and beautiful architecture, but please leave your genital circumcision and women-unfriendly clothing in your home country. Things like female oppression are NOT OKAY, no matter whether your culture sanctifies it. It's awful and no measure of culture can counterbalance that.
 
Last edited:
I suppose that's true that mainstream language classes don't really teach language effectively, but I don't think most mainstream education classes teach anything particularly well, either! But I'll concede you on that point; you can't really strong-arm a nation into speaking a language most of them have probably never heard spoken in their life (unless they're drunk and accidentally switch on BBC ALBA i suppose).

'Scots' isn't really a language. I don't know why the Scottish government thinks it is, but it isn't. That census was ridiculous; the help on the website specifically stated 'if you can understand the people from your local area, you can understand Scots'. Seriously. That's a dialect, not a language.

This question isn't really about independence, but I don't see why we should have to be complacent with a government that doesn't represent the nation as a whole. We have nuclear weapons that we don't want stuck in our country because the UK government refuses to move them. Our interests are entirely different - we returned one Conservative MP in the 2011 general election. One. 'Exchanging' Cameron for Salmond might not make things ~*~better~*~ but certainly they'll be more representative of Scottish interests. Which the UK parliament really isn't. We're interested in social change, not beating the NHS half to death. (Although we have been laying off a lot of nurses, which is worrying.)

We've been 'dissatisfied' with the politics in 'England' for 300 years. Also, everyone voted against getting a different electoral system in the UK parliament so they're not doing it. The problem with democracy.

It's certainly not a situation comparable to that of Kosovo or East Timor or Israel, of course it isn't, but that doesn't mean that we ~just need to chill~ or whatever.

To be honest my feelings on independence are mixed most days. But that doesn't mean that the issues it raises aren't important.
 
There are a ton of Scots dialects and they haven't got any standardised orthography either. It's pretty funny. That said, when you hear a Scot speaking, it's not exactly standard English either. I still don't know what to classify Scots as. But it's definitely fun stuff - not tried my hand at it, though. The point is, you speak Scots (whatever brand) but you write English (at least usually; maybe some people write door signs a la Robbie Burns, but that you'll have to tell me more about).

but I don't think most mainstream education classes teach anything particularly well, either!

That is correct. But let's keep it at history, geography, and languages (teaching science is another kettle entirely and I have a lot of gripes with most education systems in general). Suffice it to say that teaching French verb conjugations doesn't make you speak French (and nor does teaching Scottish Gaelic grammar make you automagically speak Gaelic). The single most definitive factor in the ability to speak a language is how often you use it. That sounds stupidly simple but it's true; 99% of people can learn a foreign language (though they might skimp on details/accent) if they use it consistently every day. One thing classes should be doing is immersing children in the language - being in French class should mean you're speaking French (and being in a Gaelic class means forcing the children to speak Gaelic during that time).

This question isn't really about independence, but I don't see why we should have to be complacent with a government that doesn't represent the nation as a whole. We have nuclear weapons that we don't want stuck in our country because the UK government refuses to move them. Our interests are entirely different - we returned one Conservative MP in the 2011 general election. One. 'Exchanging' Cameron for Salmond might not make things ~*~better~*~ but certainly they'll be more representative of Scottish interests. Which the UK parliament really isn't. We're interested in social change, not beating the NHS half to death. (Although we have been laying off a lot of nurses, which is worrying.)

The problem really is, that becoming independent doesn't do you any good. It doesn't really solve a lot of problems; the problems that need solving would be equally well off with a UK government that wasn't hopelessly incompetent. If you become independent, this doesn't absolve you from a lot of stuff: trade relations, diplomacy, educational system reforms, foreign policy, defense, the list goes on and on. In 95% of the cases you are going to still be linked to the rest of the UK because it's the majority of your trade. You're still going to be involved with EU regulations because it's an important part of your trade. Effectively becoming independent will give you a little bit more leeway on some social issues, but things like nuclear weapons will not be solved because you have become independent.

The Netherlands is an independent country, but 90% of our laws and regulations are still forced on us because we are an EU member and have to comply with it because of foreign trade. Scotland, Northern Ireland, all those other countries (Catalonia, the Belgian parts), etc. can want to be independent all they want, they're dependent on the import and export with their neighbours. That economic bond is always going to exist and by becoming independent you may be able to vote more autonomously but the policy will, sparing a few local details, not change an inch. In that sense it's worth debating whether there can't be a better in-house autonomy solution for Scotland, since in the main SNP policy is not going to deviate too much from what is happening now.

I agree with you that there are Scotland-specific issues that need to be solved, I am just highly skeptical that independence will solve them. I admire the Scottish tartan pride, but I think independence will not really change all that much. But if it gives the Scots the impression that this was their choice and they don't have the feeling it was foisted on them by England, then I guess that particular symbolic statement will have to do the job.

By the way, one sad story I recently heard was about a cute Scottish girl I met at a polyglot meeting here in the Netherlands who had lost her Scottish accent. As if the English accent was more prestigious...
 
Nationalism helps to preserve culture, but it really depends on how you look at it, I suppose... I mean the UK government didn't care at all about the preservation of Scottish Gaelic or anything like that. But with the devolved parliament we can have a closer look at these things because they're really home issues then, and I think it's starting to be something that people find important! Although I don't think that's really what nationalism is all about... a lot of it is politics and economics. Things like regional languages are only a small part of that.

This is true, but at least Scotland is an acknowledged country with a parliament and recognition - Cornish people have an identity, a distinct culture and a language, but will never be granted independence because it's just not economically viable; Cornwall is one of the poorest places in Europe. But lots of people who write on the topic think that having a stronger cultural identity and being granted more recognition than being a place where rich people (hello Cameron) come on holiday and push up house prices would be a good first step to helping to alleviate some of the poverty.
 
Devo max is a good idea, isn't it? It's a shame we weren't allowed to put that option on the independence referendum because the UK government thought it would be 'too complicated'. More like 'you're more likely to vote for that and we don't want you to, nyeh'. It was very annoying!

I don't think independence will automatically solve all of our problems! That's not realistic in any country's situation. But regaining power over these things is a solid start? It's unlikely to do us any bad, given our reasonably dire circumstances already (Scotland, where everyone dies horribly of horrible diseases). Sure, we'll retain trade and diplomacy links with the UK and the EU (well, probably; can never be too sure about Spain voting us in in the event what with Catalonia), but I'm not saying that's a bad thing??

The UK isn't some evil oppressive regime we're ~~fighting free of. It's not as overt as that. But I think it's important to note that Scotland as a nation did *not* vote for a Conservative government, and it never has! The UK government doesn't represent our best interests, and as the years go on it's slowly growing away from the Labour party, as well. There are a lot of SNP voters now, even if the UK government is unwilling to admit this (see: Alex Salmond not being allowed to debate with the Big Three party leaders during the last GE, despite, uh, being the First fucking Minister of Scotland).

I don't think the changes we could make are so small as to be almost pointless in the face of having to struggle(? not the right word; I'm tired, sorry) for independence. Devo max would be a good trial run and I would be perfectly willing to go for that first, but we're not allowed to vote for it for some reason.

Danni -- that's interesting! I actually didn't think about it that way. It certainly seems like that would help a lot. Although Cameron. Cameron.

..., I really don't understand what you're talking about... ? Nobody speaks what I'm assuming you're referring to 'hard Scots', really, any more. Do you mean like, Robert Burns-esque language, or the (falsified) stylings of Hugh McDiarmid? They're not representative of how modern-day Scottish people speak whatsoever (and also they're not actually hugely difficult to understand when spoken out loud by a Scottish person, imo). There are thicker accents, but we speak English. Scots isn't... really a thing any more. And honestly it rubs me up the wrong way a lot of the time, but that might be my central belt nature talking.
 
Fact of the matter is, if I hear a Scot speaking, I have to focus because sometimes your singsongy accents are confusing as hell. I don't have that if someone's speaking Canuck or regular old English from London somewhere.

And isn't Scots just the baby way of writing what you hear when someone speaks English with a Scottish accent (and using those typical Scottish words such as bairn, ken, havnae got nae (or however you spell I haven't got any), etc.)? For my part, it's a dialect, but a rather divergent one from standard English. I think they just literally wrote down what they heard (which is why the spelling differs from person to person).

And you already have autonomy over most local things... independence would give you a bit more leeway on things like the educational system, but I doubt you would change much when it comes to international regulations.

To me Scotland splitting off of England is the same as Flanders and Wallonia splitting up. Sure, there's less bitching about the politics, but economically it makes no sense and the actual situations won't change (Wallonia is also pretty dire).
 
The difference between Spanish and Italian is much bigger than that between Scots and English, and the bigger problem is that English standard orthography is messy while written Scots (as far as that exists) is just basically written as it's said to some extent).

A better example is me reading Afrikaans (a spinoff daughter language of Dutch), or Swedish-Norwegian-Danish intelligibility. Spanish-Portuguese might work but it depends on which version of both you pick.

A language is a dialect with an army and a navy, anyways.
 
... I live in the Lowlands. Any part of Scotland that isn't in the Highlands is part of the Lowlands? I don't speak that way. Even old people really don't speak that way. Who are these exceptional people who speak hard Scots? If it's a language, it's dead. It exists almost solely in the form of poetry and song (of which I mentioned two examples). Also, the example you gave is near-identical to English as it is spoken by (admittedly very accented, of which I am not, being middle-class) Scottish people except the word 'trystit'. It's not on the same level as Portuguese and Italian; Scots is literally the same with some occasional dialect-specific words and the insistence on writing phonetically. I'd have to agree with Tarvos on the language point.

I have to go!! I'll come back @ your other post later Tarvos!!
 
A better example is me reading Afrikaans (a spinoff daughter language of Dutch), or Swedish-Norwegian-Danish intelligibility. Spanish-Portuguese might work but it depends on which version of both you pick.

A language is a dialect with an army and a navy, anyways.

Portuguese is my primary language and I understand written Spanish almost perfectly. Spoken, not so much, because you need to be used to the sound. But in this case, the Iberic versions of both are closer between themselves, as is the case between the American ones. Portuguese itself is a "derivative" (I use this term very loosely) of Spanish which differentiated itself enough to become a new language. Archaic Portuguese is very similar to Spanish.

Independence is a matter that varies among nations. For example, Puerto Rico doesn't even think about separating from the US right now; in fact, they're applying for statehood within the federation. Ask a Scot their feelings and the answer will be different, same for a Catalan and so on. There's a growing movement in Catalonia for independence, but that's obvious since Spain is going through a bad economic crisis. There's still unresolved differences in the Slavic world, too, due to Russia's panslavism and Yugoslavia's (Serbia's, actually) imitation of it.

The problem is the stronger side always pushes the weaker side out, unless it takes an interest on the weaker side (cheap workforce, for example). Ethnic cleansing is an abhorrent concept nowadays, but the world still isn't free from it.
 
Okay, here's a quote from Cainntear, a Scottish linguist (or amateur linguist, idk which):

Hahaha, Cainntear. He is from HTLAL, right? Before my time. I am inclined to say "amateur linguist".

Language, dialect, it's all the same. What matters is that you don't speak like the Queen. If that's called a language or a dialect, whatever.
 
The word 'kirk' is a poor example???? I've used the word 'kirk'! My mother uses the word 'kirk' to refer to the church building. It is a word used in SSE. That's complete shite. I'm willing to concede that people believe Scots was a proper language, but it is no longer spoken.

I don't even know why you're so stuck on this because it's completely irrelevant. 'Hard' Scots is only a part of my culture because a lot of dead old Scottish dudes thought it was cool to write poetry in dialect.

Anyway @ Tarvos with regards to your comment on the education system: I'm not sure what you mean? Scotland has always had a separate education system from the rest of the UK. We have full control over it, as far as I'm aware. Our trading and foreign connections are likely going to stay roughly the same, but full control over our spending isn't something you can say is negligible! Which devo max would have helped us do without the dramatics independence implies, but hey.

P.S. I'm not claiming that Scottish people are '''oppressed''', you guys. Please don't insinuate that I am! It's really annoying.
 
Back
Top Bottom