Pronoun identity

Hiikaru ♥;462264 said:

Comma's reasoning seemed to be just as a joke, but if someone actually wanted to use it, I'd assume their reasoning would be that it's genderless and it sounds okay and it makes them happy and comfortable.

"They" as a preference isn't silly, and people shouldn't have to feel like it's silly. Gender's really upsetting for a lot of people, and if a pronoun set makes someone more comfortable with themselves, isn't that fine?

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Excuse me but what? I'm not familiar with this (bolded).
The more things people find to be uncomfortable about the more I lose the non-existent faith I had in humanity. :S

Zoltea said:

Excuse me but what? I'm not familiar with this (bolded).
The more things people find to be uncomfortable about the more I lose the non-existent faith I had in humanity. :S

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I have no idea what you're trying to say here but it's coming across as extremely arrogant and ignorant. Confusion and discomfort about gender is a common issue and there's nothing 'wrong' about it.

Zoltea said:

Excuse me but what? I'm not familiar with this (bolded).
The more things people find to be uncomfortable about the more I lose the non-existent faith I had in humanity. :S

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You're... not familiar with people being uncomfortable with gender? You're not familiar with people being trans or agendered or otherwise alienated?

Some people feel that they were born the wrong way, and they're happier if you use a different pronoun for them. It's pretty simple! If you use the pronouns people like, everyone is happier, so it's a friendly thing to do.

Question: If someone calls you "she", do you feel bothered? If it bothers you at all, you can make a connection with this idea.

It's not about "finding things to be uncomfortable about", it's about finding new ways to express existing discomfort. You don't get up one day and say "so, today, I'm bothered by my gender/sex."

(Please stay here to discuss this! I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not sure you understand where I'm coming from. I'll try to clarify anything that's confusing for you!)

Vixie ♥;462270 said:

I have no idea what you're trying to say here but it's coming across as extremely arrogant and ignorant. Confusion and discomfort about gender is a common issue and there's nothing 'wrong' about it.

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More of a personal thing regarding the faith in humanity. Though if you wouldn't mind, explain how a person is uncomfortable with gender, it's something that doesn't make sense to me. I can understand like online not wishing to reveal personal information, though if in real life it makes no sense to me.

@Hiikaru

I've never met any of those, so I have never been able to hear their side of the story. Being called the wrong gender is bothersome, but that's normal, it bothers anyone to be referred to as something they're not.

Zoltea said:

I've never met any of those, so I have never been able to hear their side of the story.

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You know you're on TCOD, right...?

enekoiru said:

You know you're on TCOD, right...?

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I don't read the quiltbag club. Unless somebody states they're trans outside of there I'm not gonna know.

Zoltea said:

More of a personal thing regarding the faith in humanity. Though if you wouldn't mind, explain how a person is uncomfortable with gender, it's something that doesn't make sense to me. I can understand like online not wishing to reveal personal information, though if in real life it makes no sense to me.

@Hiikaru

I've never met any of those, so I have never been able to hear their side of the story. Being called the wrong gender is bothersome, but that's normal, it bothers anyone to be referred to as something they're not.

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Yes, exactly - it bothers them to be referred to as something they're not. They might be male or female biologically, but inside (in their heart!), they're different. Not everyone identifies entirely comfortably as their biological gender!

It's like... well, I'll try out some different explanations and see if any of them click with you.

So first of all, try imagining how it feels like when someone mistakenly calls you "she" - can you imagine your bothered feeling being more intense than it is? If someone were to insist on referring to you as "she" even when you ask them to stop, how would you feel about that? If they really considered you to be a girl, if it became a big deal... Then, what if everyone felt that way about you? It's a distressing feeling. It's not what you are - and you know that, but they don't, and they refuse to acknowledge it as you grow increasingly uncomfortable. Can you imagine that?

What if you were transferred to a female body, or what if you woke up one day and you looked female in the mirror? Would you magically be comfortable with the idea of being "she" instead of "he", just because your physical appearance was a little different? Probably not.

It's also a little like how it feels when a part of you seems wrong. If you're uncomfortable with your weight, or height, or with a spot on your hand, or you feel that your nose is mis-aligned... A little bit like that. Something more emotional might work, too, like if you're uncomfortable with the way you speak, or with your level of skill at something, or if you have bad confidence. Try imagining anything else that causes you discomfort with yourself. This is important - discomfort with someone else or with a concept or an object isn't really close enough to imagine!

Mind and body aren't the same. There's an expression that goes "it's what's inside that counts," and this is something you ought to take to heart. Do you judge people based on their skin? Do you judge people based on their hair-colour? A person's sex is something they're born with, and it isn't something they can do a lot about, so it's important that you look past it.

It's kind of difficult to explain it to someone who's really unfamiliar with the concept, and I've never really tried before, but if you keep an open mind, I think you can come to terms with it.

(if someone who's a little better at this wants to step in, please do! But I'll try my best.)

A person being uncomfortable with their gender (gender here defining mental/personality characteristics) is just sortof a... thing. It just sort of happens. It's like, go grab your shoes. Put the left one on the right foot, and the right one on the left foot. Walk around like that for a little while. It doesn't really hurt, and it's kind of uncomfortable, but nonetheless it just feels wrong, doesn't it? Now imagine that's what your skin, your societal role, and other people's perception feels like, but you can't take that off.

That feeling is known as Gender Dysphoria, and is a mental condition in which the brain is one gender, and the body has the characteristics of another (and is also probably the single most common reason that transsexuals transition). However, unlike most mental conditions, it can't be cured by changing what's in the head- any attempts to do so tend to not only not make it better, but it can also tack on a considerable emotional baggage. Instead, the only counteraction against gender dysphoria is for the dysphoric individual to transition into the gender their brain expects. (Also, sometimes this can fall outside the binary of male/female, right in the middle of it, or any number of other gender identities).

Using someone's preferred pronouns is just plain respectful and polite.

(at least, that's my two cents)

I suppose I can clear up a bit more of what confuses me. Is it their current gender that makes them uncomfortable or the topic of gender altogether making them uncomfortable? The latter wouldn't make sense to me. Although personally I won't ever be able to relate with a trans, being able to know their thoughts would help me out tons.

Thank you, Dinru, that's helpful!

Zoltea said:

I suppose I can clear up a bit more of what confuses me. Is it their current gender that makes them uncomfortable or the topic of gender altogether making them uncomfortable? The latter wouldn't make sense to me. Although personally I won't ever be able to relate with a trans, being able to know their thoughts would help me out tons.

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The former. Though, if you wouldn't mind using a term like "sex" or "biological gender" or "perceived gender" a lot of people appreciate that so you can distinguish between what's inside of them and what's outside of them more easily. "Current gender" is a nice try for being sensitive, but these are more common and better understood terms!

Sometimes bringing up gender in general might make someone uncomfortable because it reminds them about their personal discomfort, but this isn't the main problem, just a side-effect (sort of like if you're hungry but can't eat anything just now, and others keep talking about food!).

Although personally I won't ever be able to relate with a trans, being able to know their thoughts would help me out tons.

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This is pretty awesome, just saying.

I mean, we really can't expect anyone not under the trans umbrella to be able to fully comprehend it. It's one of those things you can't explain without words, seeing as it's a really weird and confusing feeling even to people who are pretty comfortable with where they are in life.

Is it their current gender that makes them uncomfortable or the topic of gender altogether making them uncomfortable? The latter wouldn't make sense to me.

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Well, usually it's the former -- though in this case it would be physical sex and assigned gender, which is probably a stretch for you to understand but hey -- seeing as the person is seen as one sex but is mentally and strives to be perceived as the other/another/no gender at all (it's a preeeetty big spectrum).

However! With more and more education within the trans community, it's pretty easy to see how a lot of trans people do have some gripes with gender itself, even if simultaneously feeling very connected to the concept. I mean, consider.

When you are a trans person -- at least in my experience -- the idea of being the wrong gender isn't something that really formulates into a tangible statement like 'I want to be x,' because it isn't something you want to be but something that you kind of already are. And, supposing you accept that (a step in itself, whoo), you run into the feeling that you might not fit into people's views of the gender you want to be seen as. Say you're mentally male, but being raised and being physically female may have had some effects on you, or you just don't give two shits and like puppies and rainbows thanks. You realize people will find issue with you claiming your maleness but not abandoning your personality, and that gets you thinking -- just who are they to tell you what gender is anyways? What importance should it really hold? If people are all over the gender spectrum, which they are, and which you find out pretty quickly if you even put a toe into the trans community, why do we even need to label ourselves under this gender term in the first place when it's really just aspects of ourselves and our personality?

But this is where it gets all woobly.

So you sit on that line of thought for a while and then you realize, wait. All that's cool and all, but I ... still really need to be seen as whatever gender, even though I know it's all just personality crap and blah blah blah. In fact, being told I'm the other gender kind of makes me sick. What.

That's how I kind of feel anyway. There's a lot of mental turmoil involved -- gender doesn't matter, I don't even really perceive it when I'm looking at people, it's generally a meaningless term and shouldn't change how we view a person, BUT I know I'm not female, I'm male and that's something that I can feel and have felt for like forever. So yeah it's confusing for everyone

KIND OF WENT OFF ON A TANGENT THERE BUT WELP HOPE THAT HELPS A LITTLE

But tangents are fun~
Like a person with DID with a male and female personality, then things get really wild.
Though, there's always the danger of the stereotype, which is the reason 90% of people mistake me for being female on the internet.
</tangents>

But yeah, that pretty much clears up my confusions. So, the pronouns yet to be seen on someone's profile: "They", "Shemale", "Robot".

Welll shemale is really offensive, which is why you never see it outside of porn! So!

Anything can be offensive to anyone, depends if the person finds something offensive or not, lol. Though keep in mind I haven't a clue what a majority of people find offensive. x3

I know by proxy (my boyfriend), but I will try to explain at least some things. From what I can glean from my boyfriend, how you can identify or be disgusted with with such a vague concept as 'gender' is due to society's reinforcement of it. Sure, gender is a societal concept, but society is friends. Society is family. A 'societal concept' is something that involves your friends, family, and almost every other person besides you. It may seem like common sense to go 'that genitalia means that person is X gender which brings expectations of X' but some men have vaginas and some women have penises, as a societal concept is not a body part. Societal concepts are how you interact with people, how you interact with yourself, they don't exist for things that can't think complexly (my dogs don't know or care about their gender identity) but we as humans think complexly. Thus, trying to dumb ourselves down to "penis=male/vagina=female" when there is so much more complicated things going on because we as humans are complicated, it is belittling the very concept of humanity itself. As well, there is no easily given reason why people are best described under something identified in the transgender umbrella, as there is no easily given reason why people are gay, straight or otherwise. And remember, this is the most important thing: A person is the number one authority on their own thoughts. If someone says that being assigned the concept of 'female' by society due to an organ makes them feel dead inside and would very much like to have the thoughts of being a male be represented somewhere else besides his own skull because the thought of being treated like how he thinks he should be treated by people (kindly, with respect, and as a male) makes them happy, they are the authority on it, and I don't know better than them.

Did I do okay for a by-proxy account?