The QUILTBAG Club (formerly the LGBT club)

The Brittany/Santana ship makes me incredibly uncomfortable, mostly because the show flips from 'ha ha, Brittany is so dumb!!' to 'look lesbians we're taking this seriously LOOK LESBIANS SANTANA IS EMOTIONAL SEE', and it doesn't work. Especially in one episode which is all about Santana coming to terms with her sexuality, and yet Brittany barely appears in it at all??? It's pretty much 'Santana <3 Brittany but uh idk about the other way around lol'. It makes me sad. Partly because I want Faberry instead!!!

Blaine and Kurt are just so saccharine. But it's sweet idk I think they're nice regardless.

Santana is like the best character tho other than Blaine "sunshine and rainbows" Anderson so I don't caaaare. But if you're going to talk about how bad [x] representation is in [x] piece of media you should probably watch it first! And form an opinion. Even if it is Glee and Glee is awful. You can suffer. You can do it! For the dance numbers!! For Blaine wearing an eyepatch!!

The Brittany/Santana ship makes me incredibly uncomfortable, mostly because the show flips from 'ha ha, Brittany is so dumb!!' to 'look lesbians we're taking this seriously LOOK LESBIANS SANTANA IS EMOTIONAL SEE', and it doesn't work. Especially in one episode which is all about Santana coming to terms with her sexuality, and yet Brittany barely appears in it at all??? It's pretty much 'Santana <3 Brittany but uh idk about the other way around lol'. It makes me sad. Partly because I want Faberry instead!!!

Blaine and Kurt are just so saccharine. But it's sweet idk I think they're nice regardless.

Santana is like the best character tho other than Blaine "sunshine and rainbows" Anderson so I don't caaaare. But if you're going to talk about how bad [x] representation is in [x] piece of media you should probably watch it first! And form an opinion. Even if it is Glee and Glee is awful. You can suffer. You can do it! For the dance numbers!! For Blaine wearing an eyepatch!!

Jolty said:

after reading these posts I will continue to avoid Sherlock then
sigh Moffat.

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For all its faults, Sherlock is still an absolutely excellent piece of television that stands head and shoulders above pretty much anything else we've seen on TV lately. It's not perfect, but I can't think of anything on TV (and I watch a helluva lot of it) that isn't problematic in some way, and if you can grit your teeth during a short "I'm a lesbian, but look at how in love with this man I am!", you might well really enjoy yourself.

(shall reply more later)

Can I just say quickly that I find all this media discussion really interesting and you guys should never stop? I may not be really participating in it because oops, I don't watch any of those shows, but I am lurking happily here~

So I need some advice. I've been going through some... gender identity flip-flops lately, like the past few weeks. It's pretty uncomfortable and unfun most of the time because sometimes I just am not okay with having curves and boobs and looking feminine, and I don't really know what to do about it except put on a binder (I got one from a local LGBT youth group) and a looser shirt and tell myself I look masculine. :/ I got a haircut, and that feels better because it looks sort of boyish and can also be cute in a girl way I guess? But I kind of want more guy clothes at some point, and I also wonder if I can get a binder that works any better than the one I have (it's Underworks, and unfortunately I think it's the smallest size I can wear, but maybe there are different styles or something? need to do research), but that's sort of where my problem comes in.

See, I talked to my mom over Christmas about being genderqueer, and while she was pretty good about it generally (albeit not really getting it?), one thing she mentioned as being specifically uncomfortable about was the idea of me binding. She brought it up because I did it for cosplay once a few years back, and the fact that she doesn't like me doing it even for a costume should tell you just how much it bothers her. I forget exactly how she put it, but she said that it made her feel like I wasn't okay with my body or wanted to change it -- which is true now, but she put it very negatively, as if she equated it with harming my body for the purpose of appearance. I'm going home for a week at the end of the month, and since I'm binding on a semi-regular basis now, I'd like to get it out in the open with her. I don't feel like I need her approval, but I'd really like her to be okay with it if at all possible, so I want to talk to her about that and generally about some of the dysphoria-ish feelings I've had.

I think one of the issues she has with it is sort of a generational thing? She's a big feminist, and she really doesn't understand the concept of gender; I think the idea that there's any difference between 'male' and 'female' besides the physical bothers her. I understand where she's coming from, but I also just don't know how to explain to her what I mean by gender and how I can have the issues I'm having without it being about gender roles or masculinity/femininity. Does anyone have any ideas/experiences or know any good resources -- books, websites, etc. -- I could point her towards? I'm hoping to talk to her about this at least a little over the phone within the next week, and talk more in person when I'm home.

On a happier note, I'm auditioning for True Colors! It's a theater program for LGBT kids and allies, and you get paid for it if you get in! I dunno if I'll get called back or not, but I am excited for it anyway. c:

Isn't Glee pretty transphobic too? I'll admit I haven't watched it (definitely not my thing), so I'm mostly going by this post. I know Glee has a lot of LGBT fans here, so I was kinda wondering what they thought of the casual use of the slur "tranny".

I did however, listen to their version of "Born this way" where they were fine with the gay positive lyrics, but completely cut out the trans positive lyrics for some reason. It really did piss me off, I'm sick of the T in LGBT being ignored. =|

Will and Grace is like black-face but for gay people.

Keltena said:

Does anyone have any ideas/experiences or know any good resources -- books, websites, etc. -- I could point her towards? I'm hoping to talk to her about this at least a little over the phone within the next week, and talk more in person when I'm home.

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Yay, hi Keltena!!

I feel like I should have advice, but really, I know personally I would just... not tell her at all and keep it hidden. :c I know you want to get it in the open, and maybe you're more resilient when it comes to explaining things to generally well-meaning but totally confused and upset people than I am, but I feel personally sometimes it's genuinely just not worth it at all. I can't remember ever having a real desire to explain things like this to my family (though we're not particularly close at all anyway). But I understand what it must feel like and how frustrating it must feel since every so often it bothers me. :c

It's really, really hard to explain why gender identity is important to people who themselves have probably had to fight and argue about gender being socially constructed and only as meaningful as we make it blah blah, (though argh it is even harder trying to explain your own gender identity to someone who already sees gender as a big thing but for the wrong reasons, hi mum). Sometimes it feels super-wrong trying to educate people who otherwise are staunch feminists and have already decided that yay they finally understand gender after all that hard work breaking down socialisation!! Maybe a talk about gender itself could be useful? She might not really get your situation (with the binder and things) before she can fully appreciate why anyone would feel that way in the first place.

I mean I guess that's. Pretty vague. And what you already want to do, it's just how to talk about this. But ignoring gender roles and that kind of thing, just try to talk about how you see gender itself? If anything, she might at least start to come to terms with it being something you strongly feel and that you'd be making informed choices. She does seem well-meaning. :c

As for resources, I really don't know, I rarely find anything good in this area. All I can think of are endless tumblr posts to this effect? (ironic title, hee) And I'm not sure how that'd be useful since, well, its answer to 'is sex biological and gender social?' is 'sex is social too!!!!!!' and... not terribly helpful here but thanks. But I will keep you in my thoughts and try to find something!!

Saith said:

Will and Grace is like black-face but for gay people.

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Nnnnnnno.

EDIT: mega-ewwwww forgot about Glee's transphobia history, thanks Byrus. :c Though lol, the trans line being omitted from the Gaga song is kind of sadlarious when you remember she's kind of often transphobic herself anyway...... sigh.

Cirrus said:

I agree with pretty much all of this!! It's a shame that Moffat's become so dodgy in various ways, I remember when he was just the-one-who-writes-creepy-episodes and nobody expected any of this. And I am really not someone who should be trusted with knowing Doctor Who storylines, but there was a... Sally? Sally Sparrow?? In Blink? I remember her being pretty awesome. :C

EDIT: right, yeah, the being disowned by her grandmother part... I guess in a way it's good? Since Kurt's dad being won round and everyone loving him after a while was a bit unrealistic in representing a lot of coming out situations. But Glee seems to imply that Kurt should be a gay role model!! look be proud of who you are it'll be okay!!!!!!!! and then the lesbian character seems to just have really awful things happen to her continuously @_@

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Sally Sparrow was pretty cool, but within the same episode, Blink, there are not one, but two instances of guys following women until they 'give in' to their advances - a fairly standard scene with Sally and Billy (the police officer who gets caught by the angels and ends up an old man), and an "are you going to stop following me?/No, I don't think I will! THEY END UP MARRIED" scene with her sent-to-the-past Nightingale friend and the guy she marries. But I agree - Moffat was best when writing episodes within RTD's longer story arcs - RTD's plots weren't quite as good, but he got more Stuff right, and I think his characters are more fun.

And, let's be fair, Moffat did give us time-travelling interspecies sword-weilding lesbians in the most-watched kid's show in Britian (and a pretty fantastic lesbian couple in Jekyll) so we can't hate on him too much.

And re: the coming out story on Glee - I've not seen it, but I don't know how comfortable I feel with 'bad' coming out stories on TV, especially stuff aimed at teens. Aside from when they're pretty much explicitly saying "look how bad these parents are for reacting this way!", it just seems problematic to terrify gay kids who're thinking of coming out (and generally make everybody think it should be a MASSIVE DEAL) for the sake of television drama.

Hiiii Keltena~ I'm not very good with gender identity stuff, but absolute best of luck with everything, it doesn't sound like a very good time :/ I think you're right about lots of ideas about gender being very generational, and I can sort of see where your stepmother might be coming from in thinking that binding is you supressing/rejecting femininity, which is sort of the opposite to what second-generation 'bra-burning' feminists were going for, but while I don't have any useful links off the top of my head, I think with time and patience from you, your stepmother will come around.

And good luck with your theatre thing! It sounds excellent :D

Saith said:

Will and Grace is like black-face but for gay people.

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Oh, that's unfair. If nothing else, it opened the door for gay characters on mainstream daytime television. It wasn't the best representation of gay people in the world, ever, but I'm pretty sure it did more good than harm.

Although, to continue the discussion of gay people in sitcoms, you know who were cool? Carol and Susan in Friends. They got married on one of the most mainstream TV shows at the time in the early 90's! And were actually represented really quite well (terrible, terrible hats notwithstanding).

When I think of well represented lesbian couples for some reason I always go back to Willow and Tara from Buffy.

Don't get me wrong, I love Joss, and Willow and Tara are my favourite canon couple of all time, but they're not perfect, and this absolutely excellent article outlines why not. Dead/evil lesbians have been done to (pardon the pun) death.

I can't really think of many lesbians on television. Like, actually interesting characters who aren't just incidental who also happen to be lesbian. There's also a really sad lack of trans characters, but I think at the moment that might be more of a good thing than a bad thing; people find it difficult to do gays, lesbians and bisexuals right, and I think most portrayals of trans characters would be quite bad. The only trans character I can really think of too is Alexis Meade from Ugy Betty. At the time I didn't think that was one especially bad, but maybe I'm wrong?

Personally I'd be more interested in seeing more gay male protagonists in stable relationships, or just as protagonists at all, but that's because I'm slightly biased (sorry!). It's not like there's a finite amount of quiltbag that can be on TV at any one time though, right?

...right?

Byrus said:

Isn't Glee pretty transphobic too? I'll admit I haven't watched it (definitely not my thing), so I'm mostly going by this post. I know Glee has a lot of LGBT fans here, so I was kinda wondering what they thought of the casual use of the slur "tranny".

I did however, listen to their version of "Born this way" where they were fine with the gay positive lyrics, but completely cut out the trans positive lyrics for some reason. It really did piss me off, I'm sick of the T in LGBT being ignored. =|

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weh I'm too tired/spoonless to add to much of this but having watched Nip/Tuck, I can say that no one on the show is likeable for any reason. It's one of those black and grey morality/Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism shows, where the grey/idealism is nearly nonexistent. The main characters are meant to be hated because the show is about how plastic surgery is overdone. :v That said, I personally found one of the trans characters to be likable, even given the shows' standards; and it had a very good lesbian (main) character who even had a relationship with the trans woman!! They screwed up a lot on other things though, but yeah.

Basically it's easy to criticize a show without watching it, and it's easy to criticize a show as dark as Nip/Tuck because... it's basically like watching a nightmare. 9_9

opaltiger said:

Prop 8 ruling upheld on appeal.

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Next stop, Supreme Court-either that, or a larger panel, but we all know that it'll go to the Supreme Court immediately, and even if it doesn't then it will eventually make its way there.

Dannichu said:

Although, to continue the discussion of gay people in sitcoms, you know who were cool? Carol and Susan in Friends. They got married on one of the most mainstream TV shows at the time in the early 90's! And were actually represented really quite well (terrible, terrible hats notwithstanding).

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Yessss. Say what you will about Friends, but they did something *so* right there and I will never stop mentioning it routinely. They were just meant to be *perfectly* normal (particularly no more or less glamorous than the other characters), Ross' silliness about them got lots of eyerolls from the other characters, and all I can think is how they were very likely the first female couple my sister ever saw on TV as we watched it together. And I feel pretty okay about that.

Not to mention Susan was hilarious. :D Just the right amount of weary snark.

Harlequin said:

I can't really think of many lesbians on television. Like, actually interesting characters who aren't just incidental who also happen to be lesbian. There's also a really sad lack of trans characters, but I think at the moment that might be more of a good thing than a bad thing; people find it difficult to do gays, lesbians and bisexuals right, and I think most portrayals of trans characters would be quite bad. The only trans character I can really think of too is Alexis Meade from Ugy Betty. At the time I didn't think that was one especially bad, but maybe I'm wrong?

Personally I'd be more interested in seeing more gay male protagonists in stable relationships, or just as protagonists at all, but that's because I'm slightly biased (sorry!). It's not like there's a finite amount of quiltbag that can be on TV at any one time though, right?

...right?

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There was a trans character in a recent Brazilian series. They took a male actor and transformed him so well into a female-looking person that some watchers mistook him for a woman. The team behind the series did a great job with him and his portrayal was excellent as well. The voice and the mannerisms were spot on.

It's difficult to see trans characters that aren't comic relief because you won't easily find suitable actors. A trans female really has to be played by a man to be convincing, but it's not easy to find male actors with androgynous bodies. It's much easier to create a trans male character because women are more adaptable.

You can have women play trans females (like Lisa Edelstein did IIRC) but for me it seems a little off.

Oh and the very reason I liked House was because it challenges our beliefs, all the time. House isn't pro anything, and is anti-everything. He goes by his own rationality.

Harlequin said:

I can't really think of many lesbians on television.

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Well, Degrassi is a show that I don't like, but it has a few major lesbian characters.

On a side note, I found out what sexuality I am; asexual. I guess that's why I feel no attraction to my female friends.

Cerberus said:

There was a trans character in a recent Brazilian series. They took a male actor and transformed him so well into a female-looking person that some watchers mistook him for a woman. The team behind the series did a great job with him and his portrayal was excellent as well. The voice and the mannerisms were spot on.

It's difficult to see trans characters that aren't comic relief because you won't easily find suitable actors. A trans female really has to be played by a man to be convincing, but it's not easy to find male actors with androgynous bodies. It's much easier to create a trans male character because women are more adaptable.

You can have women play trans females (like Lisa Edelstein did IIRC) but for me it seems a little off.

Oh and the very reason I liked House was because it challenges our beliefs, all the time. House isn't pro anything, and is anti-everything. He goes by his own rationality.

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... what.

So guys
I hate to disrupt your discussion of QUILTBAG characters on TV
but I'd just like to report that I've been getting these pesky butterflies in my stomach whenever someone refers to me as a female
Wat do

I'd say try going as female online, see how it works for you.