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On Recent Actions Involving the Spriting Board(s)

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Stupid people is a matter of opinion. Just because /you/ think someone is stupid, doesn't mean other people agree. Most of all, it hurts people's feelings. And amounts to absolutely nothing. Again and again, I must tell you, this is a place for entertainment. Nobody's here to be told they're stupid. They're here to have fun. And if they're not spelling correctly, let them know. Don't be mean about it. If they don't listen, ignore them. I have to say this again. And don't tell me, oh the stupid people don't deserve to be here, chase them off with snark. That's nonsense. Anyone who likes Pokémon and wants to have fun deserves to be here. Because it's a place of entertainment.

why have bad entertainment when you can have good entertainment. Why live in Elven La-La-Land with the Teletubbies when we can have, uh, proper entertainment and discussion.

And I made some spelling mistakes, irrelevant. Most of my post was understandable, yes? You still got what I was saying, it was coherant. You understood my meaning. Isn't that the point? That you understand what people are trying to say? Nitpickery. If someone isn't being coherant, ask them to. If they won't change, well that's it. If you can't read their post, then don't bother, just ignore them.

If you don't like my snark, ignore me! *facepalm*

Forum rules do apply everywhere. Did I ever say that you're allowed to break the rules in the Coughing Cupboard? No. Just because people act in a manner that annoys you, doesn't matter. Most posts there aren't hurting anyone and if they do, I have to say this so many times now, ignore them or infract them, but don't snark. Some people when they post there are too upset, too emotional to make much sense. They go there seeking advice. All I am saying is not to snark, not that forum rules don't apply.

being emotional doesn't excuse you from making coherent posts. and making coherent posts is a forum rule. and if someone is an idiot in the cc, I will snark. being emotional isn't an excuse to be an idiot.

Just because /you/ act a certain way doesn't mean that everyone else does. Or can. Nobody's the same. People are going to take things differently. Some people just don't have thick skin.

yeah well some people have tendencies to murder but uh. some people just can't control their alcoholism.

Calling me stupid isn't going to make your point. Insulting me isn't going to make your point. In fact, you're having the opposite effect. More and more I begin to believe firmly in my opinion. See? What I say works in practice. And if you want to chase me off with your insults, just like all the other idiots, it's not going to work.

oh look ostriches are coming back oh man this is priceless oh man. really you didn't get a single thing of what I said. it's hilarious. you are such a nugget of stupidity I think I could award you a trophy.

people are gonna take things differently. yeah. uh. I'm aware I'm not you. I'm also aware I tend to use my brain... it's a cool thing to do. Maybe if you and the rest of the zits on the forum whining about people not being nice stood up and took notice... use your brain. yeah. that would be a good idea. I think I'll repeat it because you don't seem to get it. Use your brain. "Taking things differently" (what a completely vague and obtuse thing to say), man. Oh man. Do you want me to fix on those elf ears for you and join you in this oh-so-magical dance of love in The Enchanted Forest Of Amorous Elves?

Just let me wait a bit I have to get my staff.

Opinions sucking is your opinion. And yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Despite if it's not backed up with enough evidence. And then you can disagree with them and prove them wrong. But you don't have to snark. That is what I'm trying to say.

and since when do you decide when I get to snark or not? look I just snarked. See? I snark. Oh my god. Snark. I like the word "snark." I'll use it again now. Snark. Oh man. Snark. I really am laughing my ass of here. Snark.

And no you should stop posting if you can't back up an opinion. It is better to hold your tongue and be stupid, than to prove it by speaking.
 
why have bad entertainment when you can have good entertainment. Why live in Elven La-La-Land with the Teletubbies when we can have, uh, proper entertainment and discussion.



If you don't like my snark, ignore me! *facepalm*



being emotional doesn't excuse you from making coherent posts. and making coherent posts is a forum rule. and if someone is an idiot in the cc, I will snark. being emotional isn't an excuse to be an idiot.



yeah well some people have tendencies to murder but uh. some people just can't control their alcoholism.



oh look ostriches are coming back oh man this is priceless oh man. really you didn't get a single thing of what I said. it's hilarious. you are such a nugget of stupidity I think I could award you a trophy.

people are gonna take things differently. yeah. uh. I'm aware I'm not you. I'm also aware I tend to use my brain... it's a cool thing to do. Maybe if you and the rest of the zits on the forum whining about people not being nice stood up and took notice... use your brain. yeah. that would be a good idea. I think I'll repeat it because you don't seem to get it. Use your brain. "Taking things differently" (what a completely vague and obtuse thing to say), man. Oh man. Do you want me to fix on those elf ears for you and join you in this oh-so-magical dance of love in The Enchanted Forest Of Amorous Elves?

Just let me wait a bit I have to get my staff.



and since when do you decide when I get to snark or not? look I just snarked. See? I snark. Oh my god. Snark. I like the word "snark." I'll use it again now. Snark. Oh man. Snark. I really am laughing my ass of here. Snark.

And no you should stop posting if you can't back up an opinion. It is better to hold your tongue and be stupid, than to prove it by speaking.
No. If I don't like your snark and other people are offended by your snark, usually you are infracted. Because that's flaming. And the people who are being "stupid" are flaming as well and they are infracted. End of story. They don't need to be insulted.

I never said it did, did I? I'm talking about insulting people, not excusing them from the rules in the Coughing Cupboard. Like I said, just let them be punished. No need to add insult to injury. Insulting is unnecessary and against the forum rules itself.

Not everyone wants to or can handle being insulted, that's what I'm saying. All I am saying is to not insult people. But clearly, your entire post was dedicated to insulting me and belittling my intelligence, because my stupid brain can't get your point. It's like I said before, you lack patience. I don't think you're ever going to change. But I'm not going to standby and let myself be insulted.
 
No. If I don't like your snark and other people are offended by your snark, usually you are infracted. Because that's flaming. And the people who are being "stupid" are flaming as well and they are infracted. End of story. They don't need to be insulted.

nah calling people out on their idiocy and insulting them are two different things

I never said it did, did I? I'm talking about insulting people, not excusing them from the rules in the Coughing Cupboard. Like I said, just let them be punished. No need to add insult to injury. Insulting is unnecessary and against the forum rules itself.

i really uh, don't give a shit about hurting people's feelings when they don't want to learn. i don't care about insulting desolater. it really means nothing to me. i care about insulting people I respect but seriously if you're a random and you post shat I'll tell you 'you post shat'. That's blunt, but it's not flaming.

hmmm I am having a deja vu

Not everyone wants to or can handle being insulted, that's what I'm saying. All I am saying is to not insult people. But clearly, your entire post was dedicated to insulting me and belittling my intelligence, because my stupid brain can't get your point. It's like I said before, you lack patience. I don't think you're ever going to change. But I'm not going to standby and let myself be insulted.

calling you an elf is so very insulting

telling you to use your brain is so very insulting

saying snark over and over is very insulting

do they have skin type minus one where you live.

oh my god i have just been humorously attacked I feel insulted and have been flamed oh jeez I'm sorry do I have to pay penance with a hundred apologies

*headdesk*

you obviously really take this forum waaaaaaay too seriously
 
nah calling people out on their idiocy and insulting them are two different things



i really uh, don't give a shit about hurting people's feelings when they don't want to learn. i don't care about insulting desolater. it really means nothing to me. i care about insulting people I respect but seriously if you're a random and you post shat I'll tell you 'you post shat'. That's blunt, but it's not flaming.

hmmm I am having a deja vu



calling you an elf is so very insulting

telling you to use your brain is so very insulting

saying snark over and over is very insulting

do they have skin type minus one where you live.

oh my god i have just been humorously attacked I feel insulted and have been flamed oh jeez I'm sorry do I have to pay penance with a hundred apologies

*headdesk*

you obviously really take this forum waaaaaaay too seriously
And you don't take this place too seriously? Obviously you take it seriously if people being "idiots" here is so important to you. Otherwise, you just wouldn't care.

People are here for fun, regardless of whether you don't care about hurting their feelings. If you don't care about insulting, then why do it in the first place? People do things because they care about them. And yes, it is flaming, telling people they post "shat". Let them be infracted, if it is so bad. Again, there is no need, saying that is probably spam anyway, if not flaming. And it still breaks the rules.

It wasn't the words themselves, it was the /way/ you said them. It was clearly in a conscending manner. If I had said those things, I don't think I would've gotten away with it. It's all about tone, not words. But you can say those things and get away with them, because you're a cool person. And that's the whole reason I spoke up, because you guys get away with most things.
 
all I have to say is "LOL I'M YOUR MOM STOP BEING A BAD BOY" and I'm like "I'M OUTTA THE HOUSE ANYWAY"

that's how I feel

just lol at your attempt to patronise really you've given me my best night all week please give me some more this is really becoming more brilliant by the minute

and just to clarify: i think people should not post shit and calling them out on posting shit isn't spam. i like to think a bit of wit just makes it that much more entertaining. you really have no sense of humour and think that everyone should be nice people wearing pink skirts all being the same kind of nice people.

your life is boring and you need to get a better one. yeah. I'm outspoken. I'm convinced. If people are shit, I tell them they're shit. I have no qualms doing that. You can infract my ass for being honest. I really don't care one fucken inch. Not one. I don't honestly give a shit. I get banned, well I've been banned before, wooptiedoo. You people need to lighten the fuck up and stop acting like you've been stung by a bee everytime someone says something potentially offensive.
 
In other news, TCoD is still as full of whiny emos, bad trolls and elitists dicks as when I left.

gg forums, gg indeed
 
I wasn't trying to patronize you. I was trying to make my point. In fact, you're the one who's patronizing me.

If you want more, then I'll gladly give it to you.

Just to clarify: No, I do not have no sense of humor. Just because you don't laugh at others' people's expenses, doesn't mean you lack a sense of humor. It is flaming and it is spam. What's "shit" is your opinion, not everyone thinks it's "shit". Again, I must say my point. This is a forum, for entertainment purposes. And when you infringe upon that, you're just ruining everyone's fun.

The reason people act like that is because they don't like to be insulted. They are here for fun. People don't come here expecting for you to tell them that their posts are a waste of time and they are just stupid.
 
I wasn't trying to patronize you. I was trying to make my point. In fact, you're the one who's patronizing me.

If you want more, then I'll gladly give it to you.

aww how sweet feeling victimised already

Just to clarify: No, I do not have no sense of humor. Just because you don't laugh at others' people's expenses, doesn't mean you lack a sense of humor. It is flaming and it is spam. What's "shit" is your opinion, not everyone thinks it's "shit". Again, I must say my point. This is a forum, for entertainment purposes. And when you infringe upon that, you're just ruining everyone's fun.

go and have your collective circle jerks in insanity I don't care just don't think you can get away with posting shat in proper threads

i really do love the ostrich impersonation though. i wonder did you stamp your feet in real life too. i'd love to see a video. YES IT IS FLAMING I AM INSULTED PLEASE GET LOST AND BANNED AND DAMNED AND GO TO HELL

it's really threatening me oh I'm so scared


The reason people act like that is because they don't like to be insulted. They are here for fun. People don't come here expecting for you to tell them that their posts are a waste of time and they are just stupid.

no shit sherlock people dislike being insulted

who would have thunk it

if people don't want me to tell them their posts are a waste of time then they should make sure their posts aren't a waste of time in the first place? isn't that even remotely obvious?

telling people they can't post for shit isn't flaming no matter how much you fucking rant and whine about IT RUINS EVERYONE'S FUN

posting shit ruins my and everyone else's fun even more you know that right
 
What's this? A worthwhile thread? No waaay!

Okay, uh. I am incidentally also really freaking sick of people being dicks. My main dilemma is that the people who are dicks tend to be nice, intelligent people with a sense of humour whom I actually like when they're not being dicks and whom I don't really want to reprimand, particularly when I know the Dick Clique generally considers itself cooler than me and will not hesitate to gang up on me with the typical comments about how dumb I am and I will essentially achieve nothing but get them up against me and oh woe is me because I hate getting people I like and respect up against me.

I can see Eevee's point and what the people who agree with him are getting at; it just does not convince me there is any need for snark. Or in other words, if you think writing a thought-out, helpful post in a thread won't be worth your time (and honestly, I don't think that's a lot of the time), I cannot get myself to sympathize with the sentiment that it would be a good idea to make a post to mock the person instead. It may entertain a select few people, but overall, it is bad for the general atmosphere of the forum, promotes more of that class distinction between the cool dick clique and the nice masses (which is a large part of the whole culture problem, because the latter are less likely to respect the former when they do make thought-out posts), and can hurt people's feelings. If you want to snark about some person's post because it will entertain the Dick Clique, you can do that in private with the people it will entertain - the #tcod IRC channel is mostly a Dick Clique get-together, after all, you get your laughs with the others, somebody can make a thought-out post against the original if they feel the need to, and everybody goes home happy. To post the mocking publically achieves nothing I could consider in any way positive for anyone.

And Altmer, just go away. I liked you way back when, but the general sentiment that it is cool to have no basic respect for other human beings who don't meet your arbitrary standards honestly sickens me. If you do not wish to follow the rules of this forum, you forfeit your right to be here.
 
And Altmer, just go away. I liked you way back when, but the general sentiment that it is cool to have no basic respect for other human beings who don't meet your arbitrary standards honestly sickens me. If you do not wish to follow the rules of this forum, you forfeit your right to be here.

silly me who always thought that posting properly was a rule

i might be the only one though!
 
...I always kinda figured it was Altmer, g8tr, sometimes Furret or Verne, and Eevee.

I think I'm forgetting a few though.
 
verne is by no means in the dick clique

/no means/

also i have one thing to say that is on-topic and i didn't even say it: <Zhorken> fuck you, "it's okay to be dumb" mentality
 
Wow, really sorry for kind of starting this and then vanishing while it got all crazy. I wasn't really equipped to wade into a big internet argument yesterday.

Anyway, because I see that quite a few people referenced Eevee's post, but not many actually addressed it, I guess I'll get to that.

The problem that arises is that most people do not care. Many people don't even recognize the voice of experience, let alone consider listening to it. So post after well-thought-out post falls on deaf ears, and a lot of time is wasted. Why bother, then? I gain more respect and attention by just yelling at people. Maybe they don't listen to me, but negative attention is still better than being dismissed as irrelevant. It's not just here, either; I've come to regret taking the time to write very good replies all over the blogotubes.
Remember that people who are just beginning to post on this board do not know you. They don't recognize you as the voice of experience because it's not like you go around wearing a nametag that says, "Hi there, I know what I'm doing." Even if you did, how many would automatically believe it?

People are intimidated by people who know what they're doing, especially if they're already in an unfamiliar environment. If they're unfamiliar with the internet and the forum, they're more comfortable with people who post like they do and appear to be a member of their peer group and therefore more inclined to listen to such posters. However, that doesn't mean that you're wasting your time by trying to set them straight. It may simply be that you can't go this alone. If several people post in a reasonable manner and show the OP and the other bad posters that they are incorrect, then the OP either starts to catch on or proves him or herself stupid. In the latter case, I would say that you're welcome to give up on them. At the same time, I don't think that means you have every right to lambast them, because if they're immune to reason, they're probably immune to satire.

Ultimately, if you approach someone who doesn't know you and start heaping things like, 'Your web site sucks, my eyes bleed, learn HTML, etc." on them, why shouldn't they just regard you as another random flamer? How are they supposed to know you know what you're talking about, especially if you don't bother to expand upon what you're saying. It may be self-evident to you that lime green on an electric blue background does not an effective color scheme make, but for someone who's just learning to code things like "aesthetic appeal" are probably lost against a background of, "Ooh, look at all the cool colors I can make!" People who don't have a clue may think they're all that, yeah, but how do they know that you are?

But there's no inclination to do otherwise. Nobody would listen to me besides the half-dozen or so who already trust that I don't say things I'm not sure about. I'm good enough at skirting being banned, and if I were, oh well; fewer things to get annoyed about.
From my experience, I'm inclined to think otherwise. It's true that some people do respond well to negative criticism--though usually they do so simply by emulating the person who criticized them and not actually realizing what they were being criticized for. On the other hand, there are people who couldn't take criticism if you coated it eight layers deep in sugar. They are not yet ready to function as a productive member of internet society. However, I feel that infracting and banning them if necessary because they just don't get it is just as effective as chewing them out in public--and if you're going to be infracting them anyway, what does a little more humiliation do besides make you look like a jerk?

I've been writing fanfiction for about five years, and every couple of months somewhere there flares up a load of dramadrama about the difference between a flame and concrit. Someone reviews people to get revenge, goes on about how incompetent they are, and how they should break their keyboard and never write again, and how their characters are all Mary-Sues, and so on. And usually the reviewer is dead right in the technical aspects of the review. However, all I've ever seen this generate is a lot of whining, hurt authors who annoy the other authors and reviewers, plus a bunch of parrot reviewers who think, "Hey, it looks like that review really got attention! I'm going to go and do that to other people now!" And then the trend expands and you have a lot of whining authors and general annoyance. But you can concrit something to within an inch of its life, point out all the errors you want in as blunt a fashion as you want. But as long as you keep your analysis objective, your tone no more harsh than simply cold, people learn. Sometimes they don't, and sometimes they go whining off and annoy people. But some people do learn, and if some parrot reviewer decides that the best way to get a reaction is to construct well-reasoned and neutral arguments, then doesn't the whole community benefit?

Above all, though, there is zero social reason to try to help new members because the population as a whole does not think new members need helping. The owner isn't around so much any more, either, to give any sort of cultural guidance. There are more clueless pre-teens than not and they all encourage each other in some terrible prepubescent circlejerk. They don't want to make quality threads; they just want to be entertained and don't understand why old memes are a bad thing. They don't want to learn to use real tools; they want to pat each other on the back for their mediocre cookie-cutter results and don't understand why they should strive to do far better. They don't want a deep and interesting debate; they want any answer for the unexplained, just to soothe the mental itch, and don't understand why that shouldn't be good enough. Hell, a lot of the forums themselves don't lend themselves to many threads besides surveys.

And there's not really any group inclination to push them.
It's true that a lot of people don't fully understand what forums are meant to be about. They're new to the internet and posting on forums; I would bet that a fair portion of the members here, and certainly the demographic that get ragged on most about this, have been posting for less than a year. If not, they probably have never been on a board where a significant portion of the established members are well above their age group. So of course they're all, "Post pictures of your pets omg! What did you have for breakfast today?" Their idea of forums is to speak up and be heard, not to hear other people. I do agree with you here, but I don't agree that what you're doing is the best way to stop it?

And if there's no group inclination to push them to go deeper than that, then why not start doing so?

In any case, I don't think that the circlejerking is going on solely among the newer members. Many of the senior members seem far more interested in mocking the stupid than in actually trying to fix it, which doesn't do anything to improve forum conditions. They'd rather revel in their own wit and reputation, often making stupid-looking posts themselves, instead of doing anything about it. But seriously, how smart do you have to be to make fun of someone who so clearly has no clue what they're doing? That's not wit. It's just being a bully. If you want to raise the level of discourse on the boards, why do you act so juvenile about the problem? The way some members act, I think they would honestly prefer that the stupid stay stupid so that they have some easy mock material. Which, besides being sickening, only makes them look worse when they go on to complain about the stupidity they themselves enjoy mocking. I wouldn't consider you to be one such person, but how much different is it to say, "Sure, I could lead by example, but it's so much easier just to sink to their level, or to the level of insults?"

To clear up a couple of other major things that I see as having arisen: first, Altmer said something about not caring whether Insanity is clogged with tripe and forum games was a load of crap and so forth so long as the discussion boards are actually about discussion. I agree with this wholeheartedly. To the people who are saying "Don't stomp on our fun!": keep your fun where it belongs, please. I don't care if you want to 4chan away in Insanity, but that doesn't mean that typing incoherently in the debating hall and then getting called on it is a violation of your funtiems. If you do not want to make serious posts and engage issues about which you need to do your homework lest you look moronic, do not post in the Debate forum. Likewise, I will not post serious things and muck up your Insanity board. Now, if someone does act stupid in Debate, I still don't think that they deserve to be publicly shredded for it. However, if people disagree with you, and vehemently, and if you get infracted for totally disregarding the rules of good debate, you have no right to complain.

This leads me to the fact that some people think that boards like Insanity are extraneous at best and a major blemish at the worst. Here I'm going to have to say the same thing as I did about the debating hall: can't stand the way people post there? Leave it alone. If it's not against the rules, you've got no right to go in there and try to reform them. The fact is that even highly intelligent people can enjoy stupid humor, or lolcat memes, or whatever other nonsense goes on in there. We don't have to be totally serious all the time. Just so long as we're serious when it counts.

Additionally, some people seem to think I'm advocating a policy along the lines of, "Be benevolent unto the newbie, for he/she is our precious little poster of the future." This is not true. Sometimes, you just need to smack some sense into somebody. I believe opal posted something along the lines of we should give people a chance, but if they don't actually improve their posting habits should then proceed to infract and ban them as necessary. There are idiot newbies out there, but that doesn't mean that all newbies are. And even if they are idiots, they don't deserve getting treated as subhuman for it; you can punish them without being cruel.

However, people are equating stupidity with ignorance. They are completely different, and I am not in any way "advocating stupidity." I think that it is one of humanity's most major problems. Many newbies are extremely ignorant--ignorant of the way that the internet and the world works, how to express themselves clearly, and how they should behave. If they have never seriously posted on an internet forum before, they may not realize that chatspeak is a bad idea. If they have never encountered many people outside their peer group in their hometown, they probably find the idea that other people have differing opinions, may know more than them, or otherwise are very different from them strange and even frightening. They may respond poorly. That doesn't mean they're stupid. They're young and ignorant. Stupidity is having something clearly pointed out to you and then actively refusing to believe it. For example, firmly believing that the sky is green even when it is shown conclusively to be blue. Stupidity should be punished, though you don't need to be nasty about it. Ignorant is something that everyone here once was.

I don't think we should insult people who mess up on the forums for the same reason that I wouldn't stand up and yell, "ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?!" at someone who said something stupid in one of my classes. We all mess up sometimes, and usually we can be made to see what we were doing wrong. The people for whom that doesn't work aren't worth the effort of actually standing up.

And as for who I would consider to be a part of the "Dick Clique" or whatever, I don't really see any need to name names. You know who you are, honestly, although if you really need it spelled out, if you've called a member or group of members retarded, a douchebag(s), stupid, or something similarly derogatory, directly or indirectly as in opening a post with a line such as, "Are you fucking retarded?", I would consider you a problem. The more frequently you do this, the bigger a problem I would consider you to be. I have enough respect for the people doing this that I don't see any reason why I should call them out specifically; if you don't agree with what I'm saying, or for some reason refuse to identify yourself as falling into that group even if you do, then ultimately you're not going to change. I don't think that people would be more inclined to change their behavior if I listed names, so why would I?

To an extent I'm less unhappy about newbies getting speared than I am that so many of the more intelligent people of this board are going the Greater Internet Fuckwad way.

I'm not inclined to go back and reread everything again to make this even longer, but feel free to yell at me if you think I missed something important. I feel like I forgot something important as it is.
 
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