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  #1  
Old 08-28-2010, 07:49 PM
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Default Morality of Training Pokemon

So, guys. What's the moral justification people have for removing creatures from their habitats and forcing them to fight each other for fun and profit? There was a cool discussion about it on /vp/ and I want to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I... actually, I remember reading something in a fic about how Pokemon condescend to be trained because even though some Pokemon possess computational skills far beyond those of humans (such as Alakazam having an IQ of 5000 or Metagross being as smart as a supercomputer), they lack the inspiration or creativity to fully utilize their abilities and require a trainer's guidance to achieve their full potential.

Freshly-caught Pokemon also obey their trainers immediately after capture. Why?
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Old 08-28-2010, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Involuntary Twitch View Post
Freshly-caught Pokemon also obey their trainers immediately after capture. Why?
Probably just a form of submission or something. Sure they have awesome, amazing powers, but humans have technology that can at least contain it. Plus the trainer has their own Pokemon that can possibly beat them, since that's how they probably got weakened enough to be caught in the first place.

That's how it begins, and then a good trainer will show the Pokemon his or her intentions and they reach their full potential together.
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

I never saw the whole problem with "forcing Pogeymans to fight omg!" And that's because I think of it like wrestling, rather than cockfighting. It IS fighting, but the fighters themselves enjoy it. I'm pretty sure it's stated at some point that the Pokémon enjoy fighting.

As for the Pokéball thing, my personal explanation is that a Pokéball is like a leash in the sense that it binds the Pokémon to the trainer. They might not like the trainer (a lot of Team X grunts stole their 'mons from other trainers) but there is something that stops them from just walking away.
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

These are the questions that keep me up at night.

I think that a pokemon and a human have to 'choose' each other, then prove their worth to each other in combat. Kind of like soulmates except less intimate.

Last edited by Green; 08-28-2010 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

...If a pokemon doesn't want to take the chance of being captured, it can either run away or just stay out of the Humans' way period. The only ones we encounter are willing to be captured.
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Quote:
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[20:47:57] +Superbird: quick someone what's the integral of tan(x)
[20:48:07] +Tomsta17: 857
[20:48:08] @dingram: -lncosx
[20:48:12] +Superbird: wrong
[20:48:16] +Superbird: -lncosx + c
Superbird was muted by dingram for 7 minutes.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

The Pokeball has a slightly weak mind control force.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

^^I wouldn't be surprised. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by KronoGreen View Post
These are the questions that keep me up at
night.

I think that a pokemon and a human have to 'choose' each other, then prove their worth to each other in combat. Kind of like soulmates except less intimate.
This makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbird View Post
...If a pokemon doesn't want to take the chance of being captured, it can either run away or just stay out of the humans' way period. The only ones we encounter are willing to be captured.
I agree with this too. A trainer shouldn't capture a Pokemon that wants to stay wild, while a wild Pokemon that wanted to remain that way would stay out of the trainer's path. Of course, they're going to cross paths sooner or later, so the theory doesn't work perfectly.

Although maybe a Pokemon would want to get captured, at least for the sake of being a better battler.
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  #8  
Old 08-29-2010, 04:28 AM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Quote:
Long ago, when Sinnoh had just been
made, Pokémon and humans led
separate lives.
That is not to say they did not help
each other. No, indeed they did.
They supplied each other with goods,
and supported each other.
A Pokémon proposed to the others
to always be ready to help humans.
It asked that Pokémon be ready to
appear before humans always.
Thus, to this day, Pokémon appear
to us if we venture into tall grass.
This quote found in Canalave City in DPPt pretty much says that Pokemon purposely show themselves in order to be caught so they can help people. So, I think they do like to battle, ya know?
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  #9  
Old 08-29-2010, 06:17 AM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

I think that if a pokemon is captured, it is bound to it's trainer, wether the like it or not. (this is why the attacks Return and Frustraion do any decent damage.) The pokemon could plead to be released, but the trainer would ultimately have the final word in it. I don't think it's morally wrong, unless you collect a bunch of pokemon slaves who all hate you.
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Personally, I don't see how certain pokemon feel the need to obey the person who has their pokeball. Especially if the person is young. Think about it. In almost every game that they've come out with, a ten-year-old catches an almighty (at least to some extent) creature that instantly obeys him/her. One of the best examples is Mewtwo in Red/Blue or Firered/Leafgreen. You catch it, a level seventy uber, and it obeys you just like that. If I was Mewtwo, I would have used my super uber powers and disintegrated the offending trainer. And besides, isn't Mewtwo Blaine's pokemon? why can you even catch it?

Also, psuedo-legendaries like Tyranitar and Garchomp/maybe Salamence. They've got some pretty impressive power, and on the show recently (actually, I don't know how recent it was, but it was part of the Sinnoh saga), a kid who was far younger than Ash even, had a freakin' Tyranitar. How'd he even train it that much? (this is assuming that it has always been his pokemon, of course) And I don't mention Dragonnite, because the way I think of Dragonite, they are like gentle giants, because you see them living with like old people and farmers often. They are actually one of the few pokemon I could believe wanting to obey its trainer.
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

^ Well, there's one possible theory for this in TQFTL. The 10 agreements of Pokémon training. If they didn't obey, Arceus would, like, come out and destroy them.
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...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokémon Showdown VGC
[23:53:13] +0riginalTrainer: This is a direct result of the patriarchy.
[23:53:51] +J.D.Deuce: feminism is awesome
[23:53:52] +Viscereal: uh please address me by my pronouns
[23:53:59] +Viscereal: loom/looms/loomself
[23:54:35] +0riginalTrainer: You white male cis scum, check you privilege. No matter how many documents you throw in front of me, the wage gap is real.
[23:54:58] +J.D.Deuce: you've been warned lol
[23:55:14] +B1SHARP: So you believe that fathers deserve the same leave after they have an at home newborn as mothers?
[23:55:40] +0riginalTrainer: So you believe that women should be drafted too?
[23:55:45] +B1SHARP: Yes
[23:55:45] +Viscereal: yes, when they have a baby shove itself through their dick they can get work off
[23:55:47] +Takron Galtos: I'd settle just for at-home leave actually be guarunteed without penalties for mothers.
[23:55:51] +Superbird: you know what we need right now
[23:55:53] +Takron Galtos: That's not even standard yet.
[23:56:00] +0riginalTrainer: What I hate about feminism is that it turns a lot of male issues into female issues, then calls it feminism.
[23:56:02] +Viscereal: challenge cup round robin?
[23:56:03] +Superbird: a tourney to distract everyone from controvertial discussion
[23:56:03] @amr97: another tournament
[23:56:06] @amr97: hurry hurry
[23:56:08] +Superbird: NAILED IT
[23:56:11] +KillerOrcas: woah there what happened here
Battle Spot Doubles (VGC 2015) Single Elimination Tournament created.
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2010, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

It's an honor thing.

A Pokemon gets caught unawares by a Trainer/vice versa. He gets his Pokeball out and releases another Pokemon. They fight. If the Pokemon is fainted, the Trainer moves on and the Pokemon wakes up, goes to hide to lick its wounds, ready to beat another Trainer/Pokemon.

If it's caught, then it considers the Trainer to be "worthy", since he won AND made the Pokemon submit too.
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zackrinian View Post
And besides, isn't Mewtwo Blaine's pokemon? why can you even catch it?
what? when was it stated to be blaine's pokemon?
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:09 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Quote:
Originally Posted by KronoGreen View Post
what? when was it stated to be blaine's pokemon?
Well, I'm not sure, but there was mention of it in the Yellow Manga.
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Quote:
Originally Posted by RespectTheBlade View Post
Well, I'm not sure, but there was mention of it in the Yellow Manga.
No, it said it had some of Blaine's DNA in it. Not that it was his pokémon.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Not to mention that the manga isn't canon (or rather, it's its own canon).

All the evidence from both game and anime canon suggests they like it just fine. Some Pokémon, when happy and brought to the footprint guy in D/P, will explicitly say stuff like, "My trainer brings me to new exciting places and helps me get strong." Disobedient Pokémon act lazy and dismissive of your commands rather than refusing to fight out of anything that could sensibly be interpreted as moral objection. There is no sign of coercion being involved, etc. etc. I already wrote and rewrote an article about this several times.

Quote:
I... actually, I remember reading something in a fic about how Pokemon condescend to be trained because even though some Pokemon possess computational skills far beyond those of humans (such as Alakazam having an IQ of 5000 or Metagross being as smart as a supercomputer), they lack the inspiration or creativity to fully utilize their abilities and require a trainer's guidance to achieve their full potential.
That was probably my fic.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Humans (trainers, especially) are probably pretty intimidating to a lot of smaller/younger pokés; they've got other pokémon doing what they say, and their pokémon seem to be pretty strong. They can shoot pokémon from big red-and-white berries, heal pokémon in a few minutes, etcetera etcetera.

Also, you know, Pokémon that go with a trainer have like ~0% chance of dying in battle. That's a huge advantage as far as I would be concerned.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

^This^
Specificly that route to the north of the Fight Area in DPPl, why would the (very rare) Rattata and Spearow stay and risk their lives when they could be caught?

I personally believe that's why Pokémon like Rattata have higher catch rates then, say, Snorlax. Snorlax can just crush the offender, anyway.
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Christopher View Post
what? when was it stated to be blaine's pokemon?
well, its not in the game. But for quite a while in the manga, Blaine totes Mewtwo around in a Master Ball, ready for battles, but at a cost.
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Old 09-02-2010, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: Morality of Training Pokemon

Well, I think as long as they are treated as equals by their trainer, Pokemon enjoy fighting and testing their skill.
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