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Gender

So my idea for the experiment was to introduce myself to people right off the bat by saying "I identify as a third gender and would prefer the pronouns ze, zer, and zim, please." and sort of keeping a record of sorts of how many people take to it instantly, how many are iffy at first, how many completely drop contact with me or something similar after the mention, and how many end up forgetting my desire to go by those pronouns and call me a 'she'. If there is ever confusion over the third gender and the concept of gender identity from someone unaware of such a thing, I'll be willing to explain it. It would be a twofold attempt to raise awareness of such and figure out what the current societal views on the concept of sex vs. gender are. And at the end of the day I might write a book or an article detailing the results of this lifelong survey to make it known. I have no fear about being ostracized by the community - I'm a loner most of the time as is, and I'll probably keep in touch with my current friends (who would accept me if I were to legitimately switch pronouns) and my boyfriend has absolutely no intention of leaving me, so as far as we're concerned my relationship status is indefinite. If I'm ostracized - well, all the more fuel for my research.

Thoughts?
dude, no
i've actually had people cut me out of their life for being trans, and my gender is part of the typical binary and let me tell you it is the shittiest feeling ever so why you would do it as part of an experiment is kinda beyond me. if you're not trans then you can't do something like this if it's centred around yourself.


In reality I identify as female and go by female pronouns, but there have been times in the past where I've debated my gender identity with myself and wondered if I really feel like a female in light of the fact that I don't exactly act feminine very often, but nor do I act excessively masculine; I've wondered if I'd be more suited to third-gender pronouns. I guess in a sense I'm still debating that, much like I'm still debating my sexuality (I call myself 'lesbian' but I have a boyfriend, for instance; I've explained how this makes sense but it doesn't stop people from being confused when I first mention it), but I don't think about it often enough to have reached a conclusion; I'm content with female pronouns and that's all that matters to me.
just as well you realised you're ok with female pronouns because gender has nothing to do with how you act, or your interests.
if it did, everyone whose behaviour wasn't the "norm" for their assigned gender would be trans or something.
 
dude, no
i've actually had people cut me out of their life for being trans, and my gender is part of the typical binary and let me tell you it is the shittiest feeling ever so why you would do it as part of an experiment is kinda beyond me. if you're not trans then you can't do something like this if it's centred around yourself.

yeah fair. it was just a thought. idk.

just as well you realised you're ok with female pronouns because gender has nothing to do with how you act, or your interests.
if it did, everyone whose behaviour wasn't the "norm" for their assigned gender would be trans or something.

... point taken. i suppose i worded that badly.
 
Another good link that could be put in the first post: Natalie Reed's blog talks about trans* issues a lot (and she is trans herself). She also talks about other things, but the trans* stuff is what's relevant to this thread. She is also pretty generally awesome.

Incidentally, gender identity as a separate thing from both physical sex and the societal idea of what's masculine/feminine/etc. never used to really make sense to me - I mean, people had told me about it and obviously they knew it better than I would but I didn't really get it on a personal level - but then at some point recently while I was reading that blog it suddenly clicked. I'm not sure what happened exactly, but. Things just rearranged themselves in my head somehow and now it makes sense, in a difficult-to-articulate way. Yay for becoming less ignorant?

So since I'm assuming this happened as a direct result of generally reading more extensively about trans* experiences from an actual trans* person, anyone who's still confused about it should go do that.
 
Does "trans*" mean anyone who's not cisgender, or does it specifically mean someone who isn't cisgender, but who still falls within the binary? I've seen people use it to refer to a group of people where some of the group are outside the binary, but I'm not sure if they're using it as an everyone-who-isn't-cis term or if they're being wrong!

Also what does "genderqueer" mean, exactly? Can that be used as "anyone who's not cisgender"? When I look it up I find a bunch of really really specific meanings for it that tons of people don't fit into, but I'm not sure if it should only be used for those meanings or not.

I don't like saying "not-cis" but I'm not sure if either of those terms are all-inclusive or not. :c

In reality I identify as female and go by female pronouns, but there have been times in the past where I've debated my gender identity with myself and wondered if I really feel like a female in light of the fact that I don't exactly act feminine very often, but nor do I act excessively masculine; I've wondered if I'd be more suited to third-gender pronouns. I guess in a sense I'm still debating that, much like I'm still debating my sexuality (I call myself 'lesbian' but I have a boyfriend, for instance; I've explained how this makes sense but it doesn't stop people from being confused when I first mention it), but I don't think about it often enough to have reached a conclusion; I'm content with female pronouns and that's all that matters to me.

It's your identity and you should be allowed to talk about your own identity, but! :c Can you do it in a way that doesn't perpetrate the very very wrong idea that the only reason people identify as not-cisgender is them going "hm well I don't follow stereo-types so I guess I must not be this gender!!" Tons of people act opposite in every way from the stereo-types for their gender and still feel very attached to that gender, and tons of people act exactly like every stereo-type but really really really can't stand being called the gender for those stereo-types and identify as something else! And tons of people fall somewhere in between those!

It's a huge struggle for people to get their identities recognized when everyone around them is fighting to tell them why it can't be true because of mean stereo-types! "oh, you can't be a guy, you loved dresses when you were little!" "but if you were a girl, why would you not watch romantic comedies? you're definitely a guy." "see, this is why you are definitely not a guy - a guy would never do this." "but you like cats." "then you'd like hunting, and you don't." "then what's with all of those action figures in your room." "if that were true, you'd get a hair cut." "um, no, I've seen you play video games."

I get so much of that directed at me every day (and so do others who identify as something besides cisgender!) and it's horrible struggling to hide things I actually like and pretending to like other things just so that maybe someday someone will recognize that maybe, just maybe, there's the tiniest possibility that I could know my identity better than they do... (for a while I tried to convince myself that I was like this and that, too, because it had been so forced onto me that I couldn't identify as whatever otherwise). I've been trying to cut that out because even if I forced myself to act perfectly like every stereo-type of the (traditionally) "opposite" sex, people will still find a way to tell me I'm acting stereo-typically like the sex I happen to be (and at best I'd just get someone to decide I'm the "opposite" when I'm not a boy or a girl). But even when I'm alone it can be really hard to admit to myself that I like things, because everything is so stupidly gendered and thinking about it makes me feel dysphoric! I can't divorce the thing from how people would treat me if they ever saw because it's so forcefully pushed onto everyone who ever exists.

Even trans* people get caught up in it, fighting so hard to get recognized that they forget to be themselves and they push the stereo-types onto others, too. :c There was a really distressing article the other day with a question-and-answer session with a transgender person, where the people asked "How can you tell if someone is transgender?" and the person said "Oh, they'll always know from a very young age, and, also, they'll act like all of the other set of stereo-types from a very young age it will always be really obvious and everyone who meets them will know right away that they're transgender!" No!!!!!!! Then people who acted like the "wrong" stereo-types when they were little will always be denied the right to identify as whatever they identify as, and people who didn't know as soon as they could form their first coherent thought will be denied that right, too. :( I acted very stereo-typically when I was little and I didn't know for a long time that I wasn't cisgender (how would I have figured that out, assuming that everyone felt this way, always told that it was normal to feel dysphoria? I know that some people figure it out when they're little but some don't, too!), and I'll always pay for that! Because obviously people who aren't me know best how I feel. But regardless of whatever stereo-types I follow or don't, I have a very very very strong feeling that I am not cisgender! I don't care about stereo-types, it's just a feeling that's entirely unrelated to stereo-types! It just is that way.

Sorry if that seems like I'm ranting at you. :c There are just lots of people who will never get that, and even lots of the people who are trying hard to be inclusive and sensitive and open-hearted struggle to get that and sometimes never do, too. :(

Maybe it could be something like... "It's kind of confusing because I don't match feminine stereo-types, so I don't really get how I could identify as a girl, since I don't really understand how else people figure out their identity! But apparently I'm fine with feminine pronouns somehow anyway."

I had this idea for a lifelong 'experiment' of sorts wherein I would, upon graduating from college and entering the real world, promptly introduce myself to people by telling them that I go with the pronouns ze, zer, zem rather than female pronouns.[...]

I get that that seems safe and exciting for you, but I think it could really cause a lot of harm. :c You'll never be able to answer questions people will ask you, and when you reveal to people that you're actually lying it will encourage the idea that being not-cis is a joke and a lie and no one actually feels that way, and, too, you simply won't feel all the horribleness that comes from trying to survive in a world where people insist on everything (I say everything because there are so many people who can. not. stand even waterbottles being ungendered) fitting into their tiny boxes when they don't fit and the sides of the box are suffocating them - maybe sometimes people would hurt you over it! But it wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't be people denying that you even exist... Cisgender people can raise awareness, sure! But they'll never ever have those experiences and pretending they do and pretending they can answer questions as accurately and from their heart as someone else could is dangerous! Does that make sense? :c

I think just experimenting with different pronouns without pretending an identity is fine, though! Maybe "I'm comfortable with feminine pronouns and I guess I identify as a girl, but I'm curious what I'd feel like if people used a different pronoun set for me can you try!" (well, there's the idea that being not-cis is just a phase and an experiment but you could say that you know people really really feel that way!)

also:

"I identify as a third gender and

Can you not use "third gender"! It makes no sense to randomly count genders when there are way way way way more than two (maybe infinite) and it sort of encourages counting genders and deciding these ones are okay and these aren't and things like that! Also it seems like it's a word that calls up images of a weird sci-fi thing that can only happen to creepy aliens and maybe that's just me who thinks of that but it's still kind of bad.

There are a few things that tend to strike me as annoying when it comes to trans topics, though. And this is coming from a non-cisgender. For instance, I think the idea mentioned in that trans-etiquette that "it's not our job to educate [anyone]" is stupid and counter-productive. Some of it is semantics (how can someone educate themselves without material produced by non-cisgenders?) but that's silly. But what is the point of telling people "God! You're so ignorant! Why don't you learn something about trans*!" and then not actually educating them? Like, on the spot? It seems lazy or rude or something. No matter how it makes me feel, I always go out of my way in order to teach something to people that are wrong or ignorant about transgenderism. Claiming no responsibility for the education of the ignorant will lead nowhere.

It took me a while to get that, too - but it hurts being constantly treated like you're just a source for whatever rude questions anyone can think of, and then they just stomp all over your answers and say you're lying and wrong and disgusting anyway and you can't just bend over backward trying to be nice to people who are hurting you on purpose all the time! Even if people are genuinely curious (and trying to be curious and friendly and open-hearted doesn't mean people can't say some truly awful and hurtful things while they're still learning), it really just gets to be too much! Sometimes it's all someone can do to go "something in what you said is really bad go read about trans* etiquette". Being not-cis doesn't make it someone's duty to get hurt and trampled; marginalized people aren't magical beings that are put here to teach the poor privileged people, they're just regular people who want to live their lives in peace! You can't tell someone who's struggling not to have a break down every day that they have to go out and endure more awfulness.

I do think it can be really difficult for people to learn on their own, yes! And it's definitely super-great when someone has the courage to raise awareness and help to educate people! But you can't expect everyone to do that, and you certainly can't expect people to do that every minute! And there are lots and lots of people who do try their very best to answer all the questions and raise as much awareness as they can - there are places to get answers!

Even people who aren't cisgender don't necessarily get that right away - I didn't and I'm not cisgender, either! It can take a while! I'm generally more than willing to answer questions, but there are times where I can't, too, because it's too much. And I really don't like answering some kinds of people, because some are just mean and hurtful and it's way way way too painful trying to force them to treat everyone as people. :(
 
It's your identity and you should be allowed to talk about your own identity, but! :c Can you do it in a way that doesn't perpetrate the very very wrong idea that the only reason people identify as not-cisgender is them going "hm well I don't follow stereo-types so I guess I must not be this gender!!" Tons of people act opposite in every way from the stereo-types for their gender and still feel very attached to that gender, and tons of people act exactly like every stereo-type but really really really can't stand being called the gender for those stereo-types and identify as something else! And tons of people fall somewhere in between those!

I mentioned that I worded that wrongly. This wasn't the impression I was trying to get across - hell, I don't follow all girl stereotypes (you mentioned "girls like romantic comedies" as a stereotype, hell if I fit that). Sorry about the wrong implications.

Sorry if that seems like I'm ranting at you. :c

Nah, it's fine.

I get that that seems safe and exciting for you, but I think it could really cause a lot of harm. :c You'll never be able to answer questions people will ask you, and when you reveal to people that you're actually lying it will encourage the idea that being not-cis is a joke and a lie and no one actually feels that way, and, too, you simply won't feel all the horribleness that comes from trying to survive in a world where people insist on everything (I say everything because there are so many people who can. not. stand even waterbottles being ungendered) fitting into their tiny boxes when they don't fit and the sides of the box are suffocating them - maybe sometimes people would hurt you over it! But it wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't be people denying that you even exist... Cisgender people can raise awareness, sure! But they'll never ever have those experiences and pretending they do and pretending they can answer questions as accurately and from their heart as someone else could is dangerous! Does that make sense? :c

Makes perfect sense. I didn't really think about the potential risks. I got dissuaded after Cirrus' post earlier anyway, but thanks for pointing that out.

Can you not use "third gender"! It makes no sense to randomly count genders when there are way way way way more than two (maybe infinite) and it sort of encourages counting genders and deciding these ones are okay and these aren't and things like that! Also it seems like it's a word that calls up images of a weird sci-fi thing that can only happen to creepy aliens and maybe that's just me who thinks of that but it's still kind of bad.

Fair enough.

Sorry if my responses seem short or not very elaborative or whatnot - I've been suffering from sleep deprivation a lot lately and I'm not in a great mood for responding to things but I figured I might as well to show at least I wasn't ignoring you.
 
Another good link that could be put in the first post: Natalie Reed's blog talks about trans* issues a lot (and she is trans herself). She also talks about other things, but the trans* stuff is what's relevant to this thread. She is also pretty generally awesome.

Incidentally, gender identity as a separate thing from both physical sex and the societal idea of what's masculine/feminine/etc. never used to really make sense to me - I mean, people had told me about it and obviously they knew it better than I would but I didn't really get it on a personal level - but then at some point recently while I was reading that blog it suddenly clicked. I'm not sure what happened exactly, but. Things just rearranged themselves in my head somehow and now it makes sense, in a difficult-to-articulate way. Yay for becoming less ignorant?

Yay! I would always recommend reading some of the blogs out there written from a trans* perspective, rather than trying to wrap your head around it alone. I think I actually went through a similar thing! Before I came to terms with probably not being cis, I mostly had this opinion that trans* people clearly just got something I didn't and I was sort of... politely bemused by it all! And then there must have been something and I suddenly just got it and it was so bizarre and great. /ramblebramble

I'm curious, and haven't looked much at her things yet, but what sort of things helped you to understand? It plays on my mind quite a lot, what sort of things I can say to cis people who don't understand what gender is outside gender roles, expression and stereotypes.

Does "trans*" mean anyone who's not cisgender, or does it specifically mean someone who isn't cisgender, but who still falls within the binary? I've seen people use it to refer to a group of people where some of the group are outside the binary, but I'm not sure if they're using it as an everyone-who-isn't-cis term or if they're being wrong!

Also what does "genderqueer" mean, exactly? Can that be used as "anyone who's not cisgender"? When I look it up I find a bunch of really really specific meanings for it that tons of people don't fit into, but I'm not sure if it should only be used for those meanings or not.

I don't like saying "not-cis" but I'm not sure if either of those terms are all-inclusive or not. :c

The thing is... I don't think there actually *are* complete definitions for these things!! The way I deal with things and the way I see them mostly used are trans* = anyone not-cis, trans = anyone not-cis but mostly within the binary or maybe mostly just transsexual people??

I'm very sure, though, that mostly when someone uses trans* they mean anyone not-cis, rather than people who are within the binary! I personally feel a liiiiittle uncomfortable using 'trans*' or saying 'trans' and feel super-jumpy about it, because for almost as long as I've known, trans has been something that I'm not, and there's this weird feeling that I shouldn't be using it since I don't even know exactly how I feel (ugh, I hate using that phrase, often people assume I mean "I don't know if I'm not-cis or cis" which is wrong, wrong, wrong) and should just let ~actual~ trans people (people within the binary, I guess??) use it. I've seen 'transguy' and 'transwoman' and all these things that have always been very very much not me, and now it feels weird to suddenly feel like I can use them?? I think it's definitely a new thing for trans* to mean not-cis, presumably because now the queer community is sure that we exist!

As for 'genderqueer' I think that at least is basically genuinely a free-for-all word! I like that and that it's so ambiguous and undefined and the only one thing it really means is 'outside the gender binary'. I think it's super-useful to have a good, recognisable and established term that means 'trans* but not binary' and it just feels so good to have this word that doesn't mean much! If I say 'genderqueer' it doesn't actually say that much about me and because I'm not entirely sure how I feel, other than that I am not cis, it's perfect!!! Also lots of people use it as an umbrella term, I guess, under which fits every way to not be in the binary! And even that said, I've seen genderfluid and bigender people use it occasionally!!!!!

See, there just isn't an answer, I don't think! Maybe that's not always useful, but I think it has its charms and the very fact that some of our words can be adapted to the user really represents how gender is not simple and sometimes just can't be pinned down universally (or personally!) at all!

Can you not use "third gender"! It makes no sense to randomly count genders when there are way way way way more than two (maybe infinite) and it sort of encourages counting genders and deciding these ones are okay and these aren't and things like that! Also it seems like it's a word that calls up images of a weird sci-fi thing that can only happen to creepy aliens and maybe that's just me who thinks of that but it's still kind of bad.

But there are some people who just identify that way and it's an established thing within the trans* community! :c I don't know anyone personally who does so we should look up some resources, right! It's strange and uncomfortable when a person tries to push 'third gender' on you as if that's the only thing outside the binary you could be, but for some people 'third' is the only thing they can pin down outside that binary and maybe it's the only thing that's ever worked for them!

It doesn't make sense to randomly count genders, but people usually say 'third gender', 'fourth gender, fifth etc. etc. etc.' and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who genuinely thinks there are just three strict concrete genders. (There's also the fact that in some cultures 'third gender' is actually a legal and cultural thing, but.)
 
Does "trans*" mean anyone who's not cisgender, or does it specifically mean someone who isn't cisgender, but who still falls within the binary? I've seen people use it to refer to a group of people where some of the group are outside the binary, but I'm not sure if they're using it as an everyone-who-isn't-cis term or if they're being wrong!

Also what does "genderqueer" mean, exactly? Can that be used as "anyone who's not cisgender"? When I look it up I find a bunch of really really specific meanings for it that tons of people don't fit into, but I'm not sure if it should only be used for those meanings or not.

I don't like saying "not-cis" but I'm not sure if either of those terms are all-inclusive or not. :c

Trans* means anyone who is not cis. The point of the * is to be all-inclusive of trans-ness, including non-binaries and everyone.

Genderqueer is a specific identity. It's often used to mean non-binary but it's a misuse; it means someone who is genderqueer and identifies as such. (although you can be gq and non-binary at the same time.) It's like trans male, trans female, agender, etc.; it means not those. Its specific use can be different with each gq person and also each gq person generally has, like, a different use of gender as well, but it generally means - their gender is queer.
 
Sincerely said:
As a general rule, go with pronouns consistent with someone’s presented gender. Remember that presented gender has fuck all to do with passing. If they are presenting as female, regardless of whether or not you think they look like a “real” woman, you use “she” and “her”. If they are presenting as male, you use “he”, “him” and “his”. If in the unlikely event that you truly, honestly can’t tell their gender presentation go with “they”/”them”/”their” until you get a chance to respectfully, discreetly ask their preference.

What does this... mean?? I mean, then, how do you 'present' as not-male or not-female? I thought at first that she was using 'present' to be what they identified as, but this seems a lot more like making guesses based on secondary sex characteristics or binary gender expression. That shouldn't be a 'general rule' at all.

I mostly wear quite femme, flowy, frilly clothes, including the occasional skirt, I tend to walk in a 'feminine' way... those... shouldn't be reasons to decide to use 'she' for me until corrected! (Especially since 95% of the time, I don't correct because scary) Why is this advice?? It's nice that it's about not what you think is a 'real woman' but clearly you're still making a decision by yourself? What is presenting as male or presenting as female if you don't speak to the person?

What's wrong with using 'they' anyway, if you're so concerned with being inclusive? ?_?
 
I'm very sure, though, that mostly when someone uses trans* they mean anyone not-cis, rather than people who are within the binary! I personally feel a liiiiittle uncomfortable using 'trans*' or saying 'trans' and feel super-jumpy about it, because for almost as long as I've known, trans has been something that I'm not, and there's this weird feeling that I shouldn't be using it since I don't even know exactly how I feel (ugh, I hate using that phrase, often people assume I mean "I don't know if I'm not-cis or cis" which is wrong, wrong, wrong) and should just let ~actual~ trans people (people within the binary, I guess??) use it. I've seen 'transguy' and 'transwoman' and all these things that have always been very very much not me, and now it feels weird to suddenly feel like I can use them?? I think it's definitely a new thing for trans* to mean not-cis, presumably because now the queer community is sure that we exist!

o

Trans* was started in the 90s, so it's not that recent. And it was started specifically as a way to include non-binaries. 9_9
 
Can you not use "third gender"!

I see how there are much better alternatives (i.e. "non-binary") but why is saying "a third gender" inherently problematic? It's not suggesting that there are only three genders (as "the third gender" would), simply that the person is talking about a gender that isn't in the binary (i.e. a third gender apart from male or female). Which particular gender that is isn't specified.

Actually, I have a question. Hiikaru, you said there might be infinitely many genders. I'm wondering, how would two non-binary people realise if they belonged to the same gender, or two different non-binary genders? With male or female, you presumably have an entire cultural institution built up, within which you have been raised, so there is some kind of standard of comparison, whether it's comparative or contrastive. But if you identify as a non-binary gender, how do you go about comparing your experience with other non-binary people? It seems like there would be no reference points.

ETA: Never mind, disregard the second paragraph.
 
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Experimenting with telling people you're a third gender or opposite would never work, because you can't just start behaving like something you're not. If professional actors need lots of training before portraying trans* characters if they're cis, how can you even think of accurately describing yourself as another gender? I could put on a dress and lipstick and make a higher voice and go out there proclaiming I'm female and wanting people to refer to me as that, but it would never work out because the way my mind works is different, I don't have the mannerisms... It would be a complete mess.
 
What does this... mean?? I mean, then, how do you 'present' as not-male or not-female? I thought at first that she was using 'present' to be what they identified as, but this seems a lot more like making guesses based on secondary sex characteristics or binary gender expression. That shouldn't be a 'general rule' at all.

I mostly wear quite femme, flowy, frilly clothes, including the occasional skirt, I tend to walk in a 'feminine' way... those... shouldn't be reasons to decide to use 'she' for me until corrected! (Especially since 95% of the time, I don't correct because scary) Why is this advice?? It's nice that it's about not what you think is a 'real woman' but clearly you're still making a decision by yourself? What is presenting as male or presenting as female if you don't speak to the person?

What's wrong with using 'they' anyway, if you're so concerned with being inclusive? ?_?
I wouldn't exactly know, but might some binary trans people not be uncomfortable with being called "they" by default, simply because they'd prefer to be viewed and referred to specifically as men/women?

I mean, if referring to people whose gender identity you don't know explicitly as "they" were the standard thing, I don't see why anyone would object to it, but being that it simply isn't right now and cis people go around their daily lives having people generally immediately refer to them as him/her without questioning it, wouldn't it be reasonable for, say, a trans woman to want to just be called 'she' without question the way her cis women colleagues are every day? Because calling people "they" until you explicitly know their preferred pronouns isn't a commonplace thing, calling someone "they" in conversation with a third person who isn't aware of that usage is really just going to sound like you don't think they're a real man/woman, and if the other person is even a little transphobic that's only going to encourage them. Unless you were to preface every time with a disclaimer about what you mean and don't mean when you say "they", or something.

I completely get why you're uncomfortable with it because it means people are going to just obliviously assume wrong and use the wrong pronouns for you, but I also really get why "always call them they" would be iffy advice to give on how to be respectful of trans* people, in today's society. Especially given the only way that someone like you can be correctly identified is to never use a gendered pronoun for anyone ever until they've explicitly told you their identity, and while that would be cool if it were the norm, in society as it is today it essentially means forcing people to out themselves for your benefit or explicitly lie (which I'd imagine feels horrible). I'd wager that's why Natalie specifically advises asking people their gender discreetly if you can't tell what gender they appear to present as - because out trans* people so often face violence and harassment, and drawing more attention than absolutely necessary to their trans*-ness could be doing them a huge disservice.
 
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I think I might just go around asking everyone new I meet "What kind of pronouns do you use?" If I ask a cis person that and they're confused I get to explain why I think it's important that people do that instead of just assuming (possibly encouraging the cis person to do the same) and if I ask a trans person that I get to know what pronouns they use and never end up assuming anything about their gender. Win/win!

Although I do have a question about trans nouns. If I were to go out and meet someone who's physically female but uses non-binary pronouns (in this instance, let's say ve/ver/vem) and then I were to talk to someone else and tell them about vem, I might open by saying "So I met this girl today..."

But the question I ask of trans* people here is - in this instance is 'girl' the right word to use? Does it refer to the trans* person's physical appearance as a woman, or ver gender identity? If I met someone who was physically female but used male pronouns, I'd probably preface telling someone about him by using "So I met this guy today. He's a trans man." because if I were to say "So I met this girl today. He's a trans man." whoever I was speaking to would understand the gist of my statement after I finished (you met someone who's physically female but mentally male) but just looking at it/listening to it original it seems absurd to use the pronoun "he" to refer to a "girl". But what kind of noun would you use to refer to someone using ve/ver/vem? I suppose you could substitute it with "person" ("So I met this person today. Ve's transgender, physically female but uses the pronouns ve/ver/vem.") but is that always applicable? Is there another noun that can replace that but get across the impression that this person you met is, in fact, outside of the gender binary? Or is "girl" the correct word because ve's physically female?
 
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Well, first off, unless you're explicitly discussing trans* issues, I don't think saying 'I met this guy today HE'S TRANS' is relevant, because the majority of binary trans people just want to be seen as their correct gender (for instance, I kick myself every day for not being stronger to my mum and going to uni before taking T because now I'm just going to be seen as that trans guy and not just that guy which makes me extremely uncomfortable).
Also yeah never say 'I met this girl, he's a trans man' because that doesn't work in any combination. Trans men are men and trans women are women, you can't just say 'this girl is a man' or vice versa.

Also I think the best thing in this case is to say person? It doesn't sound horribly stilted or anything and doesn't assign a specific gender or sex.

By the way, silly question incoming: for people who want some other pronoun to be used, how do you feel about your birth sex? What I mean is: I'm a transsexual man who has no interest in advertising his transsexualism. I view my condition as a birth defect to be corrected post-haste. As such, I don't really understand people who identify as trans instead of as men or women? Does it mean you'd rather we all had the same genitalia? Or does it simply mean you don't want there to be gendered stereotypes?
Because since I view my condition as physical I agree 100% that there shouldn't be gendered stereotypes and that anyone should wear whatever they want without any sort of connotation, but I also have trouble relating to people who are comfortable in their bodies but want some special pronoun? Like. I just hate my body and there isn't a day where I don't wish I was XY, but I see a lot of XX or XY people who want to be called they or ve or something but are a-okay with their body. If your intent is to just abolish gender stereotypes, surely the answer isn't to just identify with some other gender and instead to be proud of the one you have and do whatever you want to show stereotypes are silly?

Does my question make sense? It's hard to phrase and I'm a bit tired, sorry! I'm just really trying to understand being genderqueer and so-on because I honestly don't get it.
 
Well, first off, unless you're explicitly discussing trans* issues, I don't think saying 'I met this guy today HE'S TRANS' is relevant, because the majority of binary trans people just want to be seen as their correct gender

Well, no, of course not. It was just used for the sake of an example of how I might have a conflict between pronoun and noun, written in the span of two sentences so I didn't have to create an entire conversation that includes both the noun and the discussion of alternative pronouns that was more realistic when I'm discussing linguistics.
 
By the way, silly question incoming: for people who want some other pronoun to be used, how do you feel about your birth sex? What I mean is: I'm a transsexual man who has no interest in advertising his transsexualism. I view my condition as a birth defect to be corrected post-haste. As such, I don't really understand people who identify as trans instead of as men or women? Does it mean you'd rather we all had the same genitalia? Or does it simply mean you don't want there to be gendered stereotypes?
Because since I view my condition as physical I agree 100% that there shouldn't be gendered stereotypes and that anyone should wear whatever they want without any sort of connotation, but I also have trouble relating to people who are comfortable in their bodies but want some special pronoun? Like. I just hate my body and there isn't a day where I don't wish I was XY, but I see a lot of XX or XY people who want to be called they or ve or something but are a-okay with their body. If your intent is to just abolish gender stereotypes, surely the answer isn't to just identify with some other gender and instead to be proud of the one you have and do whatever you want to show stereotypes are silly?

Does my question make sense? It's hard to phrase and I'm a bit tired, sorry! I'm just really trying to understand being genderqueer and so-on because I honestly don't get it.
Well, I can't speak for them, but I don't think it has anything to do with intent to do whatever, just with dissonance and discomfort with being referred to by gendered pronouns or viewed as a particular gender.

So being called "she" or whatever would just feel deeply wrong, not like it really means you. I understand a facet of this in that I really dislike people on the Internet thinking of me as a guy, for several reasons (like that it irritates me so many people assume people on the Internet are men by default) but mostly just because I'm not a guy. And that feeling doesn't involve my body specifically - I'm not mad they think I have a penis, just that, in general, it feels like they're making all sorts of assumptions about me and they're wrong. (Of course people make wrong assumptions about women too, but perhaps just because I've thought of myself as a woman all my life, I'm accustomed to assuming those are the assumptions people make about me, whereas finding people are making this whole other set of assumptions feels weird and wrong. It doesn't mean the assumptions about women are correct, or that I don't wish to fight tooth and claw until there are no assumptions, just that those are the assumptions that I'm... prepared for, I guess? I like subverting expectations about what women are supposed to be like, but if people aren't thinking of me as a woman, what I'm doing means something completely different to them than it's supposed to mean.)

In my case it only happens with people who've never met me and it's easy to correct them, so that feeling is more slight annoyance than anything else. But for people who experience that kind of thing all the time in real life, especially if neither of the commonly assumed genders in our culture feels "right", I imagine it would grow to be pretty maddening. And thus, wanting different pronouns that do feel "right", regardless of how they feel about their bodies in particular.


Polymetric, just use "person". Although I've actually wondered a kind-of similar thing: what the heck am I supposed to use in the way of pronouns when talking about non-binary people in Icelandic? We don't have any gender-neutral pronouns aside from "it", not even a singular-they kind of thing (since generalized third-person pronouns in Icelandic assume the gender of the nouns they're applied to, e.g. "hún" ("she") if you originally referred to the hypothetical person as a "manneskja" ("person"), since the noun "manneskja" is feminine regardless of the gender of the actual person). Currently I just default to the translation of whatever pronouns I used to use for the person before they started identifying with a different one, sometimes accompanying it with an explanation that in English they prefer pronoun X, but that's both awkward and at odds with their identity.
 
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I mean, if referring to people whose gender identity you don't know explicitly as "they" were the standard thing, I don't see why anyone would object to it, but being that it simply isn't right now and cis people go around their daily lives having people generally immediately refer to them as him/her without questioning it, wouldn't it be reasonable for, say, a trans woman to want to just be called 'she' without question the way her cis women colleagues are every day? Because calling people "they" until you explicitly know their preferred pronouns isn't a commonplace thing, calling someone "they" in conversation with a third person who isn't aware of that usage is really just going to sound like you don't think they're a real man/woman, and if the other person is even a little transphobic that's only going to encourage them. Unless you were to preface every time with a disclaimer about what you mean and don't mean when you say "they", or something.

That's all true, and it's something I guess I forgot! :c A thing I tend to do is avoid using pronouns at all until I can make an educated guess? It sounds like it would be really awkward, and it is sometimes, but clues often pop up. Surely asking discreetly is still sounding like you don't think they're a 'real' man/woman? But, I guess then you could explain why you're asking!

At trans*-friendly events at my uni, I think basically everyone just avoids using pronouns and periodically asks the group to say, which I think works best. I suppose I do personally assume a set in a non-trans*-friendly environment anyway, when I have to. :C I suppose I'll try to think a lot more on this!

Although I do have a question about trans nouns. If I were to go out and meet someone who's physically female but uses non-binary pronouns (in this instance, let's say ve/ver/vem) and then I were to talk to someone else and tell them about vem, I might open by saying "So I met this girl today..."

Please don't! Also, I don't really like being called 'physically female' to begin with, and neither do a lot of other trans* folks, especially non-binary people. 'Person' and 'people' work a lot better than you'd think, and I've noticed lately that I tend to think 'that person' or whatever in my head and self-correct when I lean towards 'that girl' or whatever. If you think it'd sound weird, I think it's only because you're not used to it.

By the way, silly question incoming: for people who want some other pronoun to be used, how do you feel about your birth sex? What I mean is: I'm a transsexual man who has no interest in advertising his transsexualism. I view my condition as a birth defect to be corrected post-haste. As such, I don't really understand people who identify as trans instead of as men or women? Does it mean you'd rather we all had the same genitalia? Or does it simply mean you don't want there to be gendered stereotypes?
Because since I view my condition as physical I agree 100% that there shouldn't be gendered stereotypes and that anyone should wear whatever they want without any sort of connotation, but I also have trouble relating to people who are comfortable in their bodies but want some special pronoun? Like. I just hate my body and there isn't a day where I don't wish I was XY, but I see a lot of XX or XY people who want to be called they or ve or something but are a-okay with their body.

I am very okay with my body! I start to not feel okay when people explicitly gender it - mostly I just try to forget that people do that. That's when I start to feel a little dysphoric and horrible. Would you not feel a lot better too if your body was never gendered? I don't... really want everyone to have the same genitalia, I want your genitalia to be, really, completely irrelevant! I want my body to be seen as the body of a genderqueer person because that is who it belongs to.

There are a lot of binary trans* people, by the way, who are absolutely fine with their bodies already! Some don't want anything to change about it! Some do, not because they feel like their body is wrong, but rather because others' reaction to their body is just unbearable! What do you think about that? What do you think about neutrois people?

Often, like I've said, I do feel uncomfortable about calling myself 'transgender' because there is internalised cissexism even within this movement. There is a certain privilege, I think, in knowing that while you feel yours isn't the body you want, there is a type of body that is societally recognised as what you should have.

I want a 'special pronoun' because 'she' is one that female people tend to use! That is used for female characters in fiction! That people see as a 'female' thing! I am not female, I am not a girl, so I have to find another way to define myself.

Also, I'm sure you know that sex is not as clear-cut as 'male' and 'female' or down to chromosomes. What do you think about that, then, the idea that sex is gendered, that sex is largely socially constructed?

If your intent is to just abolish gender stereotypes, surely the answer isn't to just identify with some other gender and instead to be proud of the one you have and do whatever you want to show stereotypes are silly?

I don't really get what you mean by 'gender stereotypes', since you seem to be talking about clothes, or something? I'm not 'identifying as some other gender', I'm... identifying as my gender/lack of gender! I am 'proud' of how I identify? I guess? I really have no idea what you mean by it being down to stereotypes being silly, sorry! :c
 
Polymetric, just use "person". Although I've actually wondered a kind-of similar thing: what the heck am I supposed to use in the way of pronouns when talking about non-binary people in Icelandic? We don't have any gender-neutral pronouns aside from "it", not even a singular-they kind of thing (since generalized third-person pronouns in Icelandic assume the gender of the nouns they're applied to, e.g. "hún" ("she") if you originally referred to the hypothetical person as a "manneskja" ("person"), since the noun "manneskja" is feminine regardless of the gender of the actual person). Currently I just default to the translation of whatever pronouns I used to use for the person before they started identifying with a different one, sometimes accompanying it with an explanation that in English they prefer pronoun X, but that's both awkward and at odds with their identity.

sdgdf this exact issue exists in Hebrew and is like, 70% of the reason I hate the gorram language. There isn't even 'it' to refer to people?? I can't even speak about gew, ffs. u_u I really, really hate gendered languages, uhg. I've been thinking of inventing pronouns but the difficulty is, all things are gendered male/female, like chairs and shit, and idk how well that'd work when carrying along a conversation. I'd have to... gender... a shitload of words.

:[ :[ I hate Hebrew...
 
Well, grammatical gender is not quite the same concept. Admittedly it's easier in English because grammatical gender has pretty much disappeared (except for personal pronouns I guess? but they aren't gendered so much as references to human gender) but it should be possible! I wouldn't expect a Swede to assert that computers have gender, but dator is not a neuter word! Admittedly Swedish is pretty egalitarian about grammatical gender -- it just has uter and neuter genders -- but the point is that grammatical gender is in no way a reflection of gender. The genders could just as easily be called red and blue and it wouldn't make any difference.

Now what Butterfree is talking about is interesting (I'd assumed Islenska just had uter and neuter like its sibling -- it doesn't have an equivalent of Swedish man (one)?) I think it would be more difficult, but I think it should be totally possible to invent some pronouns. You should try it! I'd be interested to see the results.

Disregard the linguistic rant if you'd like, but it's a bit of a peeve of mine. :<
 
Yeah, I'm not opposed to grammatical gender so long as it's arbitrary and everyone knows it's arbitrary and nobody cares or really connects it to gender in people, but when you are talking about people and alternative gender identities come into the picture, things get complex. :/

Icelandic does have "maður" (one), but that's inherently general - you couldn't use it to refer to a specific person of unknown gender any more than it would make sense to do so with "one" in English. (And even if you could, the fact it's the same word as "man" would then kind of defeat the point of the whole gender-neutral thing.)
 
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