Issues with inspiration

In response to Hiikaru's post (I sure as hell ain't quoting that): I can definitely attest to how even writing unwell can lead to, well, not necessarily inspiration, but general improvement. When I started out, most of the readership I could get didn't have helpful advice, and the few writing guides I could find mostly relied on those axioms that mean far more to skilled writers than newbies -- "Mary Sue", "show don't tell" and the like. Most of my progress, initially, stemmed from becoming heavily unsatisfied with what I was currently writing and trying to figure out what went wrong, even if fixing it up meant coming up with an entirely different story. It explains why the vast majority of my early work goes no further than three chapters. While I don't necessarily advocate never focusing on one thing, writing a lot, no matter the quality, can have the effect of leading you towards self-didacting.

Incidentally, we're currently as chronologically far away from that as possible, but, once it comes around again, NaNoWriMo can provide a great opportunity to just that kind of writing -- not necessarily good, and that you forced yourself to produce, but plentiful.

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:

That said, I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that a message is not essential to a story. Every good story has at least one message, be it something as complex and challenging as Anathem or as simple as The Ugly Duckling. A story cannot exist without a message because otherwise its just a bunch of things that happen for no particular reason. The character's motivations, the obstacles they face, the central conflict, the story must be a commentary on something or else none of these things exist. If Character A is trying to create Outcome P because of Motivation X and Character B is trying to create Outcome Q because of Motivation Y and these characters conflict, then the story is some sort of commentary on Motivations X and Y or Outcomes P and Q.

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I've seen great works that don't have a particular message. Sure, one might deprehend minor degrees of commentary from any actions, motivations and outcomes in fiction, but they're not necessarily intended as teachings, and they may not constitute a one main message. Entertainment can derive from many sources; a feeling of enlightenment is just one of them.

Cerberus said:

English is not my first language; I only learned it because I've played so many games in English and nowadays all the best stuff is written in English since it's the universal language (the English Wikipedia for example is by far the most developed one). I was taking German classes and it was much harder for me to learn because 1) it's a harder language; 2) opportunities to practise it were scarce outside of the course; 3) the gender of almost everything is different from my own first language, to top it off there's a whole set of neutral articles and pronouns! Language is a never-ending learning process. I have two ESOL English certificates but in no way do I consider myself a "master" of English language.

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This is also something I can attest to. I'm also not an English speaker by nature, although learning the ropes is easy when it's pretty much everywhere. That said, I'm still a lot better at it now than I was five years ago, and having fluency doesn't mean I never check out the Wiktionary to check my grammar or whether a word I'm thinking of means what I think it means. And as Cerberus, I had a lot of trouble learning a third language; although Spanish is very similar to my mother language, that's the devious part, because it makes the differences tricky to spot and remember. But that's not the point. Assuming you're a fluent/natural speaker of English, most of that doesn't yield that much meaning -- most importantly, learning words is a good thing. Not because it will enrichen your story's vocabulary or some nonsense like that, but simply because it helps you get an idea across and/or prevents word repetition.

Metallica Fanboy said:

Incidentally, we're currently as chronologically far away from that as possible, but, once it comes around again, NaNoWriMo can provide a great opportunity to just that kind of writing -- not necessarily good, and that you forced yourself to produce, but plentiful.

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NaNoWriMo is officially in November, but you can make any month a Novel Writing Month. =D But Metallica Fanboy is right - NaNo is a great way to get yourself just with written words.

And you can apply the same principals any time; if you get an idea, write it, no matter how silly it might seem. Anything you see around you that makes you go, "Oh, that's cool," could be a possible part of a story.

For example, I was walking in a building I've been in several times before, and I walked over a grate on the floor. I thought it was kind of neat, and I wondered where it went. The next thing I knew, a character in my story was pulling a metal grate off of the floor and climbing down into an old abandoned theater that is now highly important to the story, and it never would have come about if I didn't recognize the, "Oh, that's cool," feel I got from that random grate.

Basically just don't give up. Keep a notepad or something with you wherever you go (or if you have a phone with a notepad feature or something, that works too; I use the notepad feature on my phone all the time when I'm out and about and struck with an idea) so you can jot stuff down when you think of things. Even if it seems small or silly, you can still write it down. =3 I have tons of small notes saved on my computer that I'll probably never use, but every once in a while I flip through and find the perfect thing to add to my current story!

Good luck! =)

Watch a lot of TV. Not like cartoons, but anime and stuff with a lot of character development. That and reading a crapton of novels was pretty much what taught me about character.

And like the others said, be patient. Someday a story will just pop into your head and off you go.

Another thing to do is bounce ideas off of friends and participate in RPs. Basically write stories with others before writing on your own.

That's about all I can tell you. Good luck Lux!

Thanks everyone! Especially Hiikaru for their wall of text in-depth reply.

Sandstone-Shadow said:

Anything you see around you that makes you go, "Oh, that's cool," could be a possible part of a story.

For example, I was walking in a building I've been in several times before, and I walked over a grate on the floor. I thought it was kind of neat, and I wondered where it went. The next thing I knew, a character in my story was pulling a metal grate off of the floor and climbing down into an old abandoned theater that is now highly important to the story, and it never would have come about if I didn't recognize the, "Oh, that's cool," feel I got from that random grate.

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Hell, one of my best ideas so far came from random shit in a tool shop. Granted, I didn't have enough skill to pull off what I'd been trying to, but eh. Just goes for show: sometimes, ideas will stem from ridiculous and/or improbable sources, especially if you're paying a lot of attention.

Frostagin said:

Watch a lot of TV. Not like cartoons, but anime and stuff with a lot of character development. That and reading a crapton of novels was pretty much what taught me about character.

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While any sort of media can provide helpful inspiration, one should be careful about what they get from visual media -- animes, videogames and the like -- for literary media -- written fiction. The thing is that, often, things from one don't jive with the other. For example, visual media allows you to emit in seconds a degree of detail that, put into words, would certainly bore a reader and likely break the flow of the scene.

I usually get my ideas watching movies. Not like "Oh, The Matrix! Hurpy derp derp, I better copy!" I mean a general idea, like Oh, The Matrix! Maybe I can make a character with similar philosophy (anti-human) of Agent Smith! And maybe a character that believes he is living, but actually in a artificial life! The best tip I can give is don't copy, because you'll feel like you lost when it's complete. A couple years ago, back when I was a complete noob, I copied the first thing I thought was cool (C'mon, we all did that at one point) Now that I have a much better undestanding of human nature and storytelling, I don't copy, so to speak, but keep it original. Also, the beginning of a story is always the hard part. Once you get the ball rolling, it becomes much easier to write a well-written story.
Also, a story doesn't need a theme, but a story becomes easier to guide with one. It's hard as hell to write a good story, but it's harder to do so without a message. Odds are, if you try to not have a theme, your story will unintentionally have one. It's happened to me several times.

Cerberus said:

So, the thing about Kanshou and Bakuya is that they were created without an idea behind them, but

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Type-Moon Wiki said:

Kanshou and Bakuya: Gan Jiang and Mo Ye (干将（かんしょう）・莫耶（ばくや）, ?) are "married" twin swords representing yin and yang

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Type-Moon Wiki said:

as if questioning the meaning of the swordsmith

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Deliberately creating a piece of art with no message is a message itself. The message the artist is sending is that they don't believe a message is necessary. I know, paradoxical, but what you're quoting clearly states that the blades were created in order to question the meaning of the swordsmith, so the message they are sending is "sometimes swords don't need to be made with a certain purpose in mind, sometimes they can just be made because they're pretty and work well". I'm not saying that anyone who is enjoying a piece of art has to take on its message, I'm not saying that at all, what I am saying is that art (well, I was originally speaking about stories, but it's been expanded to art in general now) has to have a message that the creator wishes to convey or else it's just there.

Cerberus said:

What if you just want to tell a story about characters and their actions?

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Well then you're writing a commentary on characters and their actions aren't you? If the story is about the interaction between different personality types, beliefs, motivations and in the journeys the characters take, you are making a comment on how those personality types, beliefs and motivations work in the context of the story. Unless you're writing characters that the reading public are completely incapable of identifying with, people will see aspects of themselves in those characters and the journey that character goes through in the story will be a message to people saying "if you're like this, this will happen".

Metallica Fanboy said:

I've seen great works that don't have a particular message. Sure, one might deprehend minor degrees of commentary from any actions, motivations and outcomes in fiction, but they're not necessarily intended as teachings, and they may not constitute a one main message. Entertainment can derive from many sources; a feeling of enlightenment is just one of them.

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I'm sorry, but if you think you've seen a great work with no message, then you just haven't picked up on the message. A message doesn't have to be a viewpoint that the author is trying to foist on the reader, sometimes the message is "this is something you need to think about". The message doesn't need to tell people what to think about something, it can just tell them to think about something. You also seem to be thinking that I am saying message = entertainment, which is not what I am saying at all. Truly great works are both entertaining and carry a message; a message with no entertainment is boring and reaches no one, entertainment with no message is mindless. Yeah, little bits of commentary need not constitute a main message, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there needs to be at least one message that the creator wishes to convey, no matter how much or how little they emphasise it. And I'm not saying it has to go in the order message--->story either, it can go story--->message, of course it can. And yeah, sometimes the message is that one can appreciate art without thinking about its message. I'm not saying that someone who is enjoying a piece of entertainment necessarily has to take the message that the author is sending on board, I am saying that a story with no message is, in a very real sense, pointless.

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:

I'm sorry, but if you think you've seen a great work with no message, then you just haven't picked up on the message. A message doesn't have to be a viewpoint that the author is trying to foist on the reader, sometimes the message is "this is something you need to think about". The message doesn't need to tell people what to think about something, it can just tell them to think about something. You also seem to be thinking that I am saying message = entertainment, which is not what I am saying at all. Truly great works are both entertaining and carry a message; a message with no entertainment is boring and reaches no one, entertainment with no message is mindless. Yeah, little bits of commentary need not constitute a main message, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there needs to be at least one message that the creator wishes to convey, no matter how much or how little they emphasise it. And I'm not saying it has to go in the order message--->story either, it can go story--->message, of course it can. And yeah, sometimes the message is that one can appreciate art without thinking about its message. I'm not saying that someone who is enjoying a piece of entertainment necessarily has to take the message that the author is sending on board, I am saying that a story with no message is, in a very real sense, pointless.

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With no intended message, let it be made clear.

Mind you, the way you're putting the idea of a message in a work makes it basically impossible for a work not to have a message. It's not very meaningful; it would be kind of like saying every piece of written fiction needs to be composed of words.

Metallica Fanboy said:

Mind you, the way you're putting the idea of a message in a work makes it basically impossible for a work not to have a message. It's not very meaningful; it would be kind of like saying every piece of written fiction needs to be composed of words.

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Agreed.

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:

I'm not saying that anyone who is enjoying a piece of art has to take on its message, I'm not saying that at all, what I am saying is that art (well, I was originally speaking about stories, but it's been expanded to art in general now) has to have a message that the creator wishes to convey or else it's just there.

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What's wrong with it just being there? Isn't that the very nature of life? Is life meaningless simply because it wasn't created with some specific purpose in mind, but rather is simply there?

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:

I'm sorry, but if you think you've seen a great work with no message, then you just haven't picked up on the message.

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What a delightful thing to say. Who are you to judge whether a person has properly understood a work of art or not?

Teh Ebil Snorlax said:

I'm saying that there needs to be at least one message that the creator wishes to convey, no matter how much or how little they emphasise it. And I'm not saying it has to go in the order message--->story either, it can go story--->message, of course it can. And yeah, sometimes the message is that one can appreciate art without thinking about its message. I'm not saying that someone who is enjoying a piece of entertainment necessarily has to take the message that the author is sending on board, I am saying that a story with no message is, in a very real sense, pointless.

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Why does there need to be at least one message, and why is the story pointless without it? Where are you getting all this from? I disagree with the notion that the creator of a work of art has to embed some kind of message in it. I know I, for one, hardly ever try to convey anything through my writing, music or drawing.

Yes, there's always going to be someone who can read something into a work of art, but then the message is a property of the audience, not the work itself. A story doesn't have to have a built-in message in order for people to find meaning in it. It doesn't have to have been created for any particular reason. I really think you're overestimating the importance of messages. What's the message hidden within a flower, a cat, a night sky? Things don't have to have messages. It's quite enough for them to just exist.

Sandstone-Shadow said:

For example, I was walking in a building I've been in several times before, and I walked over a grate on the floor. I thought it was kind of neat, and I wondered where it went. The next thing I knew, a character in my story was pulling a metal grate off of the floor and climbing down into an old abandoned theater that is now highly important to the story, and it never would have come about if I didn't recognize the, "Oh, that's cool," feel I got from that random grate.

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Yeah, an idea might just pop out on you when you least expect it. Like yesterday, it was pouring rain and I went outside for a moment. I stepped in a puddle when it hit me; The protagonists could be out in the pouring rain could be in my book! Why didn't I think of it sooner? This book is my "The Kidnapping" story. So I would have never put it in my book if I never acknowledged it, much like Sandstone-Shadow's predictament. So yeah, keep a notepad with you at all times (In my case, I didn't but I wound up going to the computer straight after thinking of it) like Sandstone-Shadow said.

I really hate the idea that no work of fiction is proper unless it has a ~message~, at least if we're defining a "message" as something that is consciously intended as such by its originator (which, as far as I'm concerned, seems the only sensible definition of a message).

I love fiction as an art form - not prose, but fiction, meaning telling stories about fictional events happening to fictional people. I love how fiction can make the audience understand, empathize with, be fascinated by, or even attracted to, characters who have never existed. I love how stories can wrench at your heart, keep you on the edge of your seat, make you care, even though the events they describe never happened. I love how stories can invent worlds that are not only not real but outright absurd by real-life physics, and still they feel like real places, places with a history, places with culture, places that seem to exist in some alternate reality. That's magic to me.

There is fine fiction that happens to be written in part to persuade the reader of something or other. But that's an ulterior motive, not a prerequisite for the value of fiction - it's just using the fiction as a vessel for the message, and whether the fiction is any good is independent of the message except insofar as the message directly influences what happens in the story.

Fiction can make you think without the author having at some point sat down and decided he was going to make you think about this - and you can take away a "message" regardless of whether the author was trying to communicate that message or any message at all, if you define "message" as simply having been inspired by a work of fiction to change one's mind about something. But if that's your definition, then any work of fiction whatsoever potentially has a "message".

And as a writer, no, when I write a story about characters and their actions, I am not "commenting" on them. They speak for themselves, and the things that happen to them reflect what seems right for the story, in terms of the potency of the plot and believability of the characters and world, not my "commentary" on them or their actions.

Frostagin said:

Another thing to do is bounce ideas off of friends and participate in RPs. Basically write stories with others before writing on your own.

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Currently I'm doing a lot of RPs, and I have a couple of vague ideas that I might use inspired by an RP.