Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

Something I've noticed a lot of recently, though it's been around for years... where on Earth did people get the idea that the average Pokémon is unimaginably stronger than the average human?

To show just how ridiculous it's gotten... recently I saw someone suggest that something as weak as an Eevee would be able to kill or mortally wound a normal human with a single attack. Seriously, an Eevee? You've got to be kidding me.

Yes, a decent fully-evolved Pokémon is probably going to be stronger than a normal human, and many of them would probably be able to kill a normal human. And I'm sure that even a lot of unevolved Pokémon would be able to beat up some scrawny 10-year-old trainer who's never been in a fight in his life. But why would anyone in their right mind seriously think that ANY Pokémon, even something small and relatively powerless, could easily beat up a full-grown adult?

It just doesn't make any sense, and it's not at all supported by the canon material (by which I mean the games; I'm not familiar enough with the manga to say much about it, and I can't stand the anime.)

In Gold/Silver/Crystal and the remakes, a guy working for Team Rocket is capable of surviving a Hyper Beam from Lance's Dragonite without even being seriously injured (though it did hurt quite a bit and immobilize him for a while.) At point blank range. He was thrown into the wall by this, but his body was tough enough to stop the whole blast... the wall behind him isn't even damaged afterward!

There's nothing that suggests the Dragonite was holding back, either. If you want to hold back on the guy, why use Hyper Beam, one of the least holding-back attacks you can get? Why not just paralyze him with Thunder Wave, or hit him with a much weaker attack like Wrap or Dragon Rage?

They made him a Black Belt in HG/SS (I can't remember if he was originally or not), but still... he wasn't even knocked unconscious after a direct hit from one of the most powerful attacks there is, coming from a very strong Pokémon that had been trained by a very high-level trainer. If it takes that much power for a Dragonite to just immobilize one guy, what the hell could something like an Eevee do in that kind of situation? Charge in for an attack only to get roundhouse-kicked face-first into a wall and then flop down unconscious? Yeah, probably something like that.

And then you have one of the myths in D/P/Pt, where a human gets a sword and goes around killing Pokémon in such massive amounts that it's actually causing problems. I somehow doubt that this guy was only targeting weak Pokémon like Caterpies and Magikarps.

The Black Belt and the guy with the sword probably weren't really representative of what an average human can do, of course... but Team Rocket grunts are. Even the gruntiest of Rocket Grunts is capable of physically overpowering Slowpokes and cutting off their tails without being hurt in the process. Yes, Slowpokes are slow, but you'd think that the other Slowpokes would at least try fighting back after the first tail-cutting if they really were powerful enough to be a match for an average adult human.

Another of the Sinnoh myths outright states that humans kill and eat Pokémon. Yeah, they also believe that the Pokémon will magically regrow if you toss their bones in a river, but the important part is this: humans are capable of killing and eating Pokémon, and not just weak ones either (for example, Tauros/Miltank--they do have burgers, after all.)
Several Pokédex entires even mention Laprases being hunted, to the point where they nearly went extinct. A Lapras is a very large, very powerful, and very intelligent Pokémon... and on top of that, they live out in the ocean, so they're not even in a place where humans can get to them easily. If humans can frequently kill something as high up as a Lapras, why do so many people still think that far weaker Pokémon are more than a match for a human?

And finally, in the 1st-gen games, a bunch of Team Rocket grunts managed to kill a Marowak. Considering that none of their Pokémon (mostly Poison-types) would really be much of a match for a Marowak and they don't appear to be armed with anything lethal, this would imply that even a strong Pokémon like Marowak can still be beaten (and even killed) by a bunch of average unarmed human thugs.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

If all pokemon were truly stronger than humans, then the whole world of pokemon would be pokemon-dominated.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

well, the grunts _did_ have whips. but.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

rhyperior = 10 men

wild, untrained eevee = little girl

pokemon = able to control their attacks' power levels

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

Well, I'm not sure about the Rocket Grunt, but that was probably just so there wouldn't be a huge splat of gorey violence all over a Pokemon game. However, another thing to take into consideration is tools. I'm pretty sure that most any living animal, human or Pokemon, would die if they got stabbed in the chest with a sword. Lapras could be hunted by harpoons, just like whales are in the real world.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

And think abput it. Does Lance really want to kill someone.

And there are dex entries or Haunter and Shedinja stealing your soul, and Gengar just outright taking your life. And I doubt Gyarados's rampages go without a few casulaties either.

And then there's the fact that logic proves a lot of Pokémon to ve able to kill us. COuld we really survive a Body Slam from a Snorlax? Meteor Mash from a Metagross? Dynamic Punch from a Machamp? Outrage from Rayquaza? Judgement from Arceus? Magma Storm from Heatran? I think not.

But stuff like an Eevee couldn't do much. Maybe like, lick us to death. Kill us off with its sheer cuteness.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

Ignoring the Pokedex for a moment(because it's hard to seperate what's fact and what's exageration)....

Aren't several Black Belts and other assorted trainers(including Chuck) mentioned to be sparing with their Pokemon? Chuck might not be a fair example, but he was shown to be completely capable of lifting a large bolder and even shattering it, proving that with proper training humans can reach similar levels of strength to Pokemon. Then you have the Team Rocket guy mentioned above(Lance probably would've used a weaker attack if he wanted to hold back on the guy), Red having somehow climbed up Mt. Silver without Rock Climb, and probably how people in general would've had to fight off Pokemon before various tools were made to keep them in line. So, physically, I'd say it is very much possible to reach a similar level of strength as some Pokemon, but you'd still be over powered if one used its superior abilities(by virtue of having access to attacks like Hyper Beam and Body Slam).

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

When it comes to hunting, there's nothing that tells us that people don't use Pokémon of their own to hunt wild Pokémon. And it's certainly possibe that they're breeding Pokémon for food.

On the other hand, there's that rumor that Magnus defeated a Machamp in arm wrestling.

Still, it's entirely understandable why we'd say Pokémon are so powerful. I mean, they're creatures that can cause tremendous local earthquakes, tidal waves and thunderstorms.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

Wow... I somehow completely forgot about all the mentions of Fighting-type trainers sparring and/or lifting weights with their Pokémon (and Magnus vs. Machamp in arm-wrestling, heh.) Even more evidence for Pokémon not being ludicrously powerful compared to humans!

pokemon = able to control their attacks' power levels

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Is there really any evidence for this?

I mean, I'm sure it's possible for them to hold back (just like anyone can hold back some of their strength) when using a lot of attacks, but... Hyper Beam? The whole point of Hyper Beam is not holding back, that's why it wears you out so much that you need to recharge afterward.

And think about it. Does Lance really want to kill someone.

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Well, the guy was a member of a criminal gang that has killed and maimed Pokémon in the past, and Lance did come from a dragon trainer clan that puts a very high value on treating Pokémon well... if Lance did want to kill him, it wouldn't really be out-of-character.

Besides, if Lance really wanted his Dragonite to hold back (or thought his Dragonite would outright kill somebody if it didn't hold back), he wouldn't have given the command to use Hyper Beam rather than some other attack.

Still, it's entirely understandable why we'd say Pokémon are so powerful. I mean, they're creatures that can cause tremendous local earthquakes, tidal waves and thunderstorms.

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Yeah, this is part of the reason why I brought up Hyper Beam vs. Black Belt. Sure, the attacks sound impressive if you just look at the names (like Earthquake or Magma Storm) or the attack animation, but how powerful are they really?

I doubt any Pokémon's Earthquake attack is anywhere near as powerful as a real, city-destroying, 7-or-8-on-the-Richter-scale earthquake. I usually picture the Earthquake attack as more of a ground-level shockwave that will knock you down pretty hard if you're within 20 feet or so of the Pokémon that uses it, but doesn't go deep enough to cause any structural damage to the area unless the battle's taking place on really unstable ground to begin with. Of course, freshly-dug tunnels in the dirt just a few feet below ground are going to be pretty unstable, so it hits (and does more damage to) things using Dig.

Of course, ridiculously powerful Pokémon like Rhyperior or Groudon would probably be able to destroy buildings and such with Earthquakes... but even for them, it'd take hours of Godzilla-style rampaging to actually destroy a whole city like a real earthquake does.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

El Garbanzo said:

Well, the guy was a member of a criminal gang that has killed and maimed Pokémon in the past, and Lance did come from a dragon trainer clan that puts a very high value on treating Pokémon well... if Lance did want to kill him, it wouldn't really be out-of-character.

Besides, if Lance really wanted his Dragonite to hold back (or thought his Dragonite would outright kill somebody if it didn't hold back), he wouldn't have given the command to use Hyper Beam rather than some other attack.

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Maybe it only knows Hyper Beam? :sweatdrop: But still, we're talking about killing someone here. Let's not forget Lance is the champion of the Elite 4, who are the most powerful trainers in the region. Lance would be a celebrity icon. If a celebrity killed someone in our world then there would be scandal! Of course the Pokemon world is not the same as our world but it's not wildly different either. Lance isn't an idiot - he wouldn't kill someone insignificant just for revenge. If he killed anyone it would be the boss or one of the executives, not 'random blackbelt'.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

If an Eevee can knock a Pikachu unconscious by tackling it a few times, why not a human?

(I distinctly remember this happening last time I played Yellow.)

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

Music Dragon said:

If an Eevee can knock a Pikachu unconscious by tackling it a few times, why not a human?

(I distinctly remember this happening last time I played Yellow.)

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I think the phrase used was "kill or mortally wound a human in a single attack" which even I agree would be ridiculous. Still, it is unclear exactly how levels affect the Pokemon's strength - a Level 100 Eevee would deal massive damage with Bite if the attack stat of a Pokemon is a direct measure of how strong it is (this would make it more than 20 times as powerful as when it first hatched...)

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

If an Eevee can knock a Pikachu unconscious by tackling it a few times, why not a human?

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A human can knock another human out by punching them in the head a few times, but trying the same thing against an elephant or a rhino would most likely get you pretty seriously hurt.

Maybe it only knows Hyper Beam?

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Heh, that'd be pretty ridiculous. XD

I'm not 100% sure what moves Lance's Dragonite's actually had, but I seem to remember at least one of Lance's Dragonites knows Thunder Wave when you fight him later... though I may be mixing them up with Clair's Dragonair(s). They also have Blizzard/Thunder/Fire Blast (one elemental attack for each) and Outrage, I think.

But still, we're talking about killing someone here. Let's not forget Lance is the champion of the Elite 4, who are the most powerful trainers in the region. Lance would be a celebrity icon. If a celebrity killed someone in our world then there would be scandal! Of course the Pokemon world is not the same as our world but it's not wildly different either. Lance isn't an idiot - he wouldn't kill someone insignificant just for revenge. If he killed anyone it would be the boss or one of the executives, not 'random blackbelt'.

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True, Lance probably wouldn't go out of his way to kill lower-ranking Rockets, and he'd probably avoid doing so if possible.

Which is probably why the Black Belt is the only guy Lance's Dragonite actually attacks. If he had Hyper Beamed an average grunt with no significant fighting ability, they probably would end up dead... but instead, Lance went after the guy who could actually survive that attack. Probably for two reasons: to get the strong guy out of the way without an extended battle that would alert the other grunts, and to scare the other guy (who just gives up without a fight) into not trying anything.

Still, it is unclear exactly how levels affect the Pokemon's strength - a Level 100 Eevee would deal massive damage with Bite if the attack stat of a Pokemon is a direct measure of how strong it is (this would make it more than 20 times as powerful as when it first hatched...)

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As much as I prefer the games over pretty much every other Pokémon-related thing (that I've seen much of), I'd have to say that stats and levels are probably more of a game mechanic than anything else.

Base stats are probably a pretty good gauge of how strong any given Pokémon is in different areas (compared to other Pokémon), and in general a Pokémon with more experience or training (higher level) is going to be tougher than a similar Pokémon with less experience or training... but there probably isn't such a simple "do the math" way to figure out a Pokémon's exact level of power. A well-trained Pokémon would definitely be more powerful than some newbie trainer's untrained starter or a wild Pidgey, but even a really high leveled Eevee is still an Eevee. The difference between "Untrained Starter" Eevee and "After Beating Several Gym Leaders" Eevee would be more like... a bite from a kitten vs. a bite from a small dog with strong jaws, rather than something really massive. Of course, the "small dog" bite would hurt a lot and possibly cause some real injury, but it still wouldn't be anywhere near lethal. Unless maybe the Eevee was rabid or something, heh.

Of course, a trained-to-the-max Pokémon probably would be more than 20 times more powerful than a freshly-hatched one. But that's not really all that impressive when you consider that a freshly-hatched baby should either be very weak or completely helpless, depending on its species.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

To be honest, I think that caught Pokémon are more or less pacifistic against humans. I mean, if there isn't something that affects their behaviour, there is really nothing that prevents them from running away when you send them out, or attacking other trainers like they do in the wild. It'd seem rather unorthodox to hurt someone for no real reason, right? That's what I'd say Lance's Dragonite had to do. If you had to punch someone you were a lot stronger than, would you use all your strength?

This nothing but a bit of speculation on my part, but still.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

El Garbanzo said:

Is there really any evidence for this?

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If my fuzzy memory serves me, there was an episode of the anime, first season, where Ash's Pikachu and Squirtle downsized the power of their attacks to help train someone's Paras.

...Granted, it didn't really seem to make any difference, but it was supposed to be implied that that Paras was unusually weak anyway, so...

Edit: My own personal assumption is that the programmers simply wanted to show how strong Lance and his pokemon were by issuing a Hyper Beam rather than some "common" attack, and didn't really factor in the chance of killing the person targeted.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

The fact that Lance has underleveled dragonites in his E4 team makes me think that the dragonite he used then was probably pretty low-leveled.

and honestly who even needs more than one dragonite, let alone three underleveled ones? guy's got some issues, man.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

Shadow Serenity said:

If my fuzzy memory serves me, there was an episode of the anime, first season, where Ash's Pikachu and Squirtle downsized the power of their attacks to help train someone's Paras.

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You are correct. It was in the original Anime and Para's debut.

And the Magnus v Machamp thing is a myth. Think of it like people telling all those Chuck Norris jokes. He can't actually punch through the Earth, or take a shotgun blast without bleeding, or withstand 20 the lethal dose of poison for an Elephant and just be powered down slightly. That's just what people say, as they idolize him. Or something.

Magnus is the Chuck Norris of the Pokémon world.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

Mustardear said:

I think the phrase used was "kill or mortally wound a human in a single attack" which even I agree would be ridiculous.

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All right, then think of Eevee as one of those really small, really angry bulldogs that go straight for the jugular. Problem solved! It'd look a bit like the scene with the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

All right, then think of Eevee as one of those really small, really angry bulldogs that go straight for the jugular. Problem solved! It'd look a bit like the scene with the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

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Maybe if it was some kind of killer mutant super-Eevee. With big, pointy teeth.

Level 255 Eevees off the coast of Cinnabar Island from the Missingno glitch, maybe?

If my fuzzy memory serves me, there was an episode of the anime, first season, where Ash's Pikachu and Squirtle downsized the power of their attacks to help train someone's Paras.

...Granted, it didn't really seem to make any difference, but it was supposed to be implied that that Paras was unusually weak anyway, so...

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Hmm... I generally don't count the anime when figuring out how Pokémon stuff works, since it's completely separate from the game universe and all. (and also because I don't like it, but mainly because of the two-different-universes-so-they-probably-don't-work-the-same-way thing.)

But I'm guessing some attacks (like Water Gun or Thundershock) probably would be able to be toned down, just because of how the attacks work. Water Gun is basically just a much weaker but more accurate Hydro Pump anyway, and Thundershock's barely any different from a weak Thunderbolt, so I can't see any reason why a Pokémon wouldn't be able to cut the water/electricity flow down even lower if they needed to. I mean, I'm sure some trainers use Water-types to water their plants and such, and most plants are just too fragile for a Blastoise to be blasting them with huge sprays of water like a fire hose.

Some attacks just don't seem like they'd work that way, though... I'd imagine that Dynamicpunch would just become Regular Everyday Punch if you tried to tone it down very far below its normal level, and the whole point of moves like Overheat and Hyper Beam is that you pump so much power into them that it weakens you or you have to recharge afterward.

The fact that Lance has underleveled dragonites in his E4 team makes me think that the dragonite he used then was probably pretty low-leveled.

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It's level 40, going by HG/SS, which is insanely high for that point in the game.

And I'm guessing the only reason it's that low is so that the double battle with Ariana and the random grunt wouldn't be completely unbalanced by the Dragonite being there.

Re: Relative strength of humans vs. Pokémon

But it was, Dragonite's Fly OHKO'd all the opponents Pokémon and all I did was keep swapping. Insta exp, free of charge.

I think that Humans would be relitivly strong against some Pokémon (Caterpie, Eevee, Rattata, Sentret, ect), but I think that the ability to KO Pokémon would probably stop when they come to some Pokémon with huge strength (Machop, Geodude) or Pokémon with the ability to kill/cripple someone from range (Electabuzz's Thunderbolt, Jynx's Blizzard, Magmar's Fire Blast, Dragonite's Hyper Beam for example)