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Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Well, see, I would. See, I'm sitting next to my dad the whole time, and I can't exactly do that. I mean, I guess it's bearable, but it's obnoxious to have the pastor saying absurd things, like being gay is wrong and Isreal is super-special an hearing people yelling "Amen!" in agreement. It's outright evil.

And being disrespectful and loud? Have I mentioned that Dad is very skilled with a belt?
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

there are still people who get punished with the belt? ._.

also, maybe it's just me, but I love going to church services, if only because I'm interested in religion in general and like hearing about the types of things they say in religious institutions. :V But that's, like I said, prolly just me.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

And also with manatees, correct? Humans are definitly special if we share a common ancester with manatees. *nodnod*

Like opal said, we share a common ancestor with pretty much _the entire animal kingdom_ if you go far back enough. Monkeys are the closest living relatives to us, apart from pre-Homo sapiens hominids such as Homo habilis, erectus etc. etc. We share an evolutionary ancestor with monkeys in the sense that some couple million years ago, there was an animal that was very much like a modern monkey, but not completely a monkey. It gradually, slowly evolved into two different branches. That thing we evolved from wasn't as much a monkey as modern monkeys are - it was very much like a modern monkey, but not exactly a monkey.

Evolution is very subtle. That's the beauty of it. Humans did not evolve from monkeys - they evolved from creatures that were very much like monkeys. There was a creature that was close enough to monkeys that if it evolved through the path monkeys used, it would end up being called a monkey, but some different path in evolutionary space-time took it to become a human.

Anyway. I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you stick up for your beliefs, aren't you saying you believe them and saying why? I mean, I guess you could ignore everyone elses claims after you say that, but that isn't doing your belief any justice.

There's saying what you think and there's shouting it off a rooftop. Apart from that, in some situations, as you may have noticed, saying what you think is tantamount to suicide. You must judge whether you'd risk being a little secretive a little longer and work towards a situation where you can be yourself, or speak your mind and face the consequences of the situation you're in. If you're diligent about what you say and think, then you might not be convincing towards other people, but you might also not stick your nose in so far that it gets chopped off.

Some people, like strong evangelicals, will not be convinced. They have faith, remember this. They will cling to it even in the face of odds that prove they are wrong entirely and utterly. This is what faith does. You can't convince those people because being an atheist entails being critical about anything. And being critical means destroying thought processes that don't lead anywhere. And the "safe zone" or "comfort zone" of their minds, will be destroyed. Therefore they do not accept such things. They indeed use faith to build their lives.

It is better to keep quiet until you are independent, then show your father how much you are worth, and tell him quietly. If you mock his beliefs openly, of course he will be insulted. You can't tell somebody their whole worldview is wrong and accept them to take it lying down, even if you're right rationally. There's a difference between being right and being accepted as being right.

Also if this entails physical abuse you're allowed to tell social services. Punishment using belts should be outlawed. Unless you're in some shitty country where it isn't. In which case I wish you good luck.


And ohmygod, your avatar is scary. I'm gonna remember you.

I love it.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

While this may be true in theory, society's prejudices against atheists pretty much require that you be either "open" about it (and thus face discrimination) or "in the closet" (and feel shitty about hiding who you are).
I think most people around me know I don't believe in god but I have faced about as much discrimination for that as I have for having grey eyes. "Location: South Carolina" might go a long way towards explaining this (I live in a mid-western city) but in my experience, talking about how you are born again in Jesus' name is going to get you far more weird looks than talking about how you don't think god exists. I think I might have a difficult time running for public office, but that's about it.

Well, I can understand what you mean. But is it really moral to keep those beliefs you hold dearest to yourself unsiad to others. I mean sure, if ou don't speak your mind, you'll never get into any arguments ever in your life. But if you speak what you believe, your sure as hell going to get opposition, but you're generally bettering the world. I appreciate you saying that though; it's kind of humbling to look at it from that angle.
Well, I can see where you are coming from, but the impression I got upon reading your post was that you were simply making things harder upon yourself by rebelling against your parents and their culture.

To be honest I think the problem is that neither of you (meaning you and your dad) are being very respectful of each other's beliefs. He is forcing you to go to extra church and saying "you believe humans are monkeys", but you are calling him brainwashed, stupid, bigoted, etc. and saying "do you believe in faeries" to him. Besides, if he is really that into his religion, and truly believes that anyone who does not believe in God will go to hell, then it is perfectly understandable on his part that he would want to at least try to save his own son from such a fate. I think the best thing to do would be to say "dad, look, I'll respect your beliefs and you can respect mine" instead of being so hostile to him and what he represents.

Remember that there is no "holy war" between Christians and atheists, and there is no "we must rise to face our oppressors". There are simply people who are intolerant of others' beliefs. Don't be one of them.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

I mean, I guess it's bearable, but it's obnoxious to have the pastor saying absurd things, like being gay is wrong and Israel is super-special an hearing people yelling "Amen!" in agreement
I'm going to pick at this quickly. Also this will be from the viewpoint of a Christian, so expect me to refer to the Bible.
1. Amen means "so be it", but rarely used outside of churches these days.
2. There's homosexual Christians, if the pastor is preaching on the law, Leviticus states sexual intercourse between two people of the same sex is a sin. (aka studying must be done)
3. If proper studying is done, all people have equal chances, no nation should be treated as holy, Israel in old testament times had God's chosen people. In Acts they go to the gentiles, so any Christian church should be giving Israel as much attention as anywhere.

Now, on the main topic
There is nowhere I know of in the Bible where the early Christians forced people to come to Christ. Your father should merely give you the option and perhaps make sure you know everything there is to know. If he ever tries to force you to be a Christian then he's doing it wrong.

As for an earlier suggestion, being disruptive in a church service certainly does little but fuel bitterness. This is the last thing that should ever be done. Many talk about tolerance, but as mentioned above, this has to be done by both sides.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Remember that there is no "holy war" between Christians and atheists, and there is no "we must rise to face our oppressors"

Some Christians act like there is. They routinely suppress other religions. Islamic countries do the same in most cases. It is not a holy war as if it were the Crusades, but some factions of Christianity are definitely out to nullify atheism (and for that matter anyone who doesn't share their belief), and they are an alarmingly large part of politics.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

My advice is to tell him that if you are forced to be a Christian, you don't sincerely mean it and thus it won't help in any way. If you personally don't accept Christ as your savior as your personal choice, than it just doesn't work. It is like being forced to marry someone you don't love. Sure, you can deal with it, but you may never love them, especially not if you are being forced to.
This might sound silly to say to him from your perspective, but it might make sense to him from his perspective.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Some Christians act like there is. They routinely suppress other religions. Islamic countries do the same in most cases. It is not a holy war as if it were the Crusades, but some factions of Christianity are definitely out to nullify atheism (and for that matter anyone who doesn't share their belief), and they are an alarmingly large part of politics.
And some atheists act like there is. But there isn't.

I'd appreciate it if you could point out these "factions of Christianity". I don't doubt that they exist, I'd just like to see what you are talking about.

But I don't think that, at least in the US, atheists are in any danger of having our rights infringed upon. Just because there are Christians that would like to, say, convert the entire country to their religion, does not mean that they would like to round up the atheists and put them in concentration camps, or deny atheists citizenship, and etc. And even if they would like to, policies like these are obviously never going to pass in today's political climate. Besides, there are certainly atheists that would like to convert everyone to atheism (i.e. create a society without religion), and you cannot argue that this way of thinking is alright and the Christian evangelical way of thinking is not.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

there are still people who get punished with the belt? ._.

Yeah. :\


Anyway. I still haven't come out as an atheist to anyone offline except for my closest friends who I know won't judge me for it. This is because I have no balls, and if I told my parents, they'd try to have some kind of "intervention" for me and they'd try to involve my grandpa, who's always been the most religious person I know, but he's also the best grandparent ever and if he found out that even though he practically raised me I didn't grow up into a devout Christian, he'd think he did something wrong and have some kind of depression-induced early onset death. (so I'll wait for him to die happy first before I come out I guess is what I'm saying) (so maybe your dad is taking out some disappointment in his raising you on you or something, on top of sincerely fearing for your afterlife? don't tell him that though.)
But you've got balls. "Coming out" as an atheist is still a pretty big deal. Eloi and Zeta have the right idea, though. You need to not be so hostile towards him as he is to you. It only reinforces his preconceived notions of what all atheists are like. I know that's a lot harder than it sounds, so if you can't manage to have a peaceful discussion about your beliefs with him, maybe you should write down what you want to say on a note or something and have him read it. I'm always a lot more eloquent in writing so when I have something I want to tell or ask somebody but I just can't say it to their face, being the balless person that I am, I tell them in writing.

I hope you and your dad can work this out. I have a terrible relationship with my dad (albeit for totally different reasons), and... it really sucks. :/
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

I'd appreciate it if you could point out these "factions of Christianity". I don't doubt that they exist, I'd just like to see what you are talking about.

Quote Mr Bush sr.:

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.
Previous Bush was no different. Republicans are in no way in favour of atheism and don't even consider them American (!). They are seen as second class civilians.

But I don't think that, at least in the US, atheists are in any danger of having our rights infringed upon. Just because there are Christians that would like to, say, convert the entire country to their religion, does not mean that they would like to round up the atheists and put them in concentration camps, or deny atheists citizenship, and etc. And even if they would like to, policies like these are obviously never going to pass in today's political climate. Besides, there are certainly atheists that would like to convert everyone to atheism (i.e. create a society without religion), and you cannot argue that this way of thinking is alright and the Christian evangelical way of thinking is not.

no atheist is advocating society without religion, just a society with the freedom to not believe and to be electable for public office if so. no atheist wants to eradicate religion. they just want equal rights which are "officially" granted but not really.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

no atheist is advocating society without religion

Well, some certainly are. But the Militant Atheists (TM) that people love to cite (Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, etc) certainly aren't.

you cannot argue that this way of thinking is alright and the Christian evangelical way of thinking is not.

Yes you can. "Atheism doesn't instill horrendous moral values, thus an all-atheist society would be better than an all-Christian society."
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

I think most people around me know I don't believe in god but I have faced about as much discrimination for that as I have for having grey eyes. "Location: South Carolina" might go a long way towards explaining this (I live in a mid-western city) but in my experience, talking about how you are born again in Jesus' name is going to get you far more weird looks than talking about how you don't think god exists. I think I might have a difficult time running for public office, but that's about it.

Well, in South Carolina, it's pretty much 92% Christian, 1% Jew, 7% non-religious. I'm pretty sure we're in the top 10 most religious states.

To illustrate, the recent liberal Democratic candidate for governor was pro-life, anti-gay. That's literally how bad it is.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Well, some certainly are. But the Militant Atheists (TM) that people love to cite (Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, etc) certainly aren't.

Yeah, but I think that's a tiny minority of all atheists. That would be like saying Christianity is represented by the Landover Baptist Church.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

In america, parents can punish with a belt. TBH, so long as it doesn't cross the line into straight up abuse, I don't see anything wrong with it. (And I've been belted multiple times, so don't say I don't know what I'm talking about.) "I'm going to whip your ass black and blue, you stole," is going to leave a much firmer impression not to steal than, "Go to your room, you stole."

Also, I consider atheists citizens!
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Yeah, a firmer impression that you really do not want to have as a child.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

In america, parents can punish with a belt. TBH, so long as it doesn't cross the line into straight up abuse, I don't see anything wrong with it. (And I've been belted multiple times, so don't say I don't know what I'm talking about.) "I'm going to whip your ass black and blue, you stole," is going to leave a much firmer impression not to steal than, "Go to your room, you stole."

Also, I consider atheists citizens!

The problem with this is that you're not teaching the child not to steal because it's wrong to steal. You're teaching them not to steal because they'll get caught and will be punished, and most often, the child will grow to hate their parents for belting them and as a result do the exact opposite of what they're told.

Another way of going about it in which no violence is necessary would be to explain why stealing is wrong and then if the child steals, have them go to their room simply to show them that there is a consequence. The impact should be feeling bad about stealing; punishing isn't the point. I mean, sure, if you want to teach your kid 'don't steal or else the government will catch you and whip you' then fine. If you want to teach them 'don't steal because it's wrong' then hitting them isn't going to get you anywhere.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

O_o This thread got another page. I've been staring uselessy at the first one , waiting for In Absentia to respond to #1 Bro. Silly me.

But you've got balls. "Coming out" as an atheist is still a pretty big deal. Eloi and Zeta have the right idea, though. You need to not be so hostile towards him as he is to you. It only reinforces his preconceived notions of what all atheists are like. I know that's a lot harder than it sounds, so if you can't manage to have a peaceful discussion about your beliefs with him, maybe you should write down what you want to say on a note or something and have him read it. I'm always a lot more eloquent in writing so when I have something I want to tell or ask somebody but I just can't say it to their face, being the balless person that I am, I tell them in writing.

Well, you're all right. I guess it's true that I have been a bit hostile. You're right; I don't want to give him a bad impresaion of all athiests, and I honestly genuinly don't want to fight with him.

...And oddly enough, writing is what I 'came out' with. I always express myself better through writing, like you. I shamelessy stole some points from the Theism thread (simply because they were so graceful an worked very well. I'm not a plageriser!). Dad's also a lot better through writing, too, although he prefers to speak because he's still pretty good at it and overwhelms me with sly smiles (no, Dad, bananas do not disprove evolution) until I or he becomes angry at which point we'll start yelling until he begins flailing his arms at which point we both quit. (<---- Look! A hard to read sentance!)

But still, I'll try my best. I don't want to hurt our relationship or give athiests a bad name.

The problem with this is that you're not teaching the child not to steal because it's wrong to steal. You're teaching them not to steal because they'll get caught and will be punished, and most often, the child will grow to hate their parents for belting them and as a result do the exact opposite of what they're told.

Another way of going about it in which no violence is necessary would be to explain why stealing is wrong and then if the child steals, have them go to their room simply to show them that there is a consequence. The impact should be feeling bad about stealing; punishing isn't the point. I mean, sure, if you want to teach your kid 'don't steal or else the government will catch you and whip you' then fine. If you want to teach them 'don't steal because it's wrong' then hitting them isn't going to get you anywhere.

It's something I would never do to my future children, but my Dad did it and I'm not really bitter. :/ He really only ever pulls it out as a last resort (it hasn't been used on me for a year or two) - which is why I was so appalled that he threatened it when we were debating. It also helps that he always explained himself before and after he did it ("Stealing is wrong because it's a sin- kneel over *whap until I begin crying* - stealing is wrong because it's a sin) and of course the reasoning was useless seeing as I'm an athiest now but it worked well back then and was valid enough. I'm not advocating it or anything, but it worked for me.

Also, on a diffirent note, Dad was asking me where I get my moral values from. I said that I make them myself - a poor choice of words for what I really think, whthat atever gives you the most personal freedom without infringing on anyone elses' freedom is generally right. He told me that I can compromise these values at any time, and in a way I think he had a point. What do you think?
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

You can, but so can everybody. There are plenty of alcoholics and adulterers and etc. that also claim to be Christian, say grace at dinner, go to church (hi2u my redneck side of the family). It's practically irrelevant whether you're religious or not as to where where you get your values from and whether or not you really stick to them. The question is will you compromise them?
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

The thing is that Christians tend to think that moral values are given strictly through religion because of what they call sins, and that they will go to hell. Of course it is far from the truth. We get our morals from society as a whole and because there are consequences for our actions.

Your dad is questioning your morals because for him there is only divine reason and without that he fears there is nothing holding you to your morals. My advice to you is to not let this get to you. It is a difficult to question to answer, but he doesn't have very much of a point when you think about it. For example a Christian will say that they don't steal because it is a sin and they will go to hell, while an atheist will not steal through fear of legal consequences. In either situation, if they are hungry and poor enough they will still steal. Given the right motivation anyone can compromise their morals, religious or not.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

while an atheist will not steal through fear of legal consequences.

Or, you know, because stealing is kinda a shitty thing to do.
 
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