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  #21  
Old 10-01-2008, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Quote:
Originally Posted by opaltiger View Post
(3) The punctuation at the end of each quotation is inside the quotation marks.
Oh Reginald~

I disagree!


I've always thought this is a terrible rule. It's also an American invention; as I understand it, the original British rule (and a newer American rule, naturally) is logical quotation: when the punctuation at the end of a quote occurs at the end of the containing sentence, only put it on the inside if it matches. Otherwise you end up with nonsense like this: Did he tell me "turn the oven off?"

It also makes more sense when quoting short phrases or parts of sentences, since you don't end up sticking end-of-sentence punctuation where it doesn't belong: He called evolution "just a theory".

Wikipedia's manual of style agrees B)
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  #22  
Old 10-01-2008, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

I've always thought that the British rule makes more sense as well. I'm sure opal remembers that I talked at him for hours about this and apostrophes and everything else while the guide was in the making. But in the end, we chose to leave out details. I admit we were loose with the word "details": we've cut out more or less everything complicated. The British rule is complicated, whereas the reader can understand and follow the normal American rule without trouble.

One day I'll write Not So Simple Grammar, in which I'll compare the different rules. I might even write Harrowing Grammar, in which I'll talk about Fowler's rules for the dash and the difference between shall and will. But for now, foolproof Simple Grammar will do.

Last edited by Ruby; 12-19-2010 at 07:30 PM.
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  #23  
Old 10-01-2008, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Harrowing.

I don't think that scrapping common sense in the name of skin-deep simplicity is necessarily a good idea, but ok.
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  #24  
Old 10-01-2008, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Why did you say harrowing?

And it's not a matter of common sense - language makes no sense - it's a matter of usage. Can he get away with using the American usage? Yes. Can he get away with misusing the British usage? No.

Last edited by Ruby; 12-19-2010 at 07:23 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-01-2008, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

It's a cool word!

Languages CAN make sense in small ways. It makes more sense to preserve the end punctuation of a sentence when possible than to toss it for something else and hope the reader figures it out.
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  #26  
Old 10-01-2008, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

That's why I use the British system. The problem is that John_Smith123 will read our guide and go away to write his magnum opus, and it will begin

Oak said, "I overslept"!
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  #27  
Old 11-30-2008, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Humorous ambiguity with the compound possessive.
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I kinda like the chick in the wheelchair's socks though.
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  #28  
Old 11-30-2008, 11:12 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Eh?
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  #29  
Old 11-30-2008, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

"chick in the wheelchair's socks" could be read as "the chick in the socks owned by the wheelchair"
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  #30  
Old 12-01-2008, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Well, what else are you supposed to do? "The chick's in the wheelchair socks"?
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  #31  
Old 12-01-2008, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Thank you for posting this.
There are lots of people on the internet that could use some help with their grammar.
Every forum should have a board like this, really.
xD
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  #32  
Old 12-01-2008, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Dragon View Post
Well, what else are you supposed to do? "The chick's in the wheelchair socks"?
Reword it. "The socks that belong to the chick in the wheelchair", "the socks on the chick in the wheelchair", or just change it up entirely.
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  #33  
Old 12-23-2008, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

"The chick-in-the-wheelchair's socks"?
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  #34  
Old 01-02-2009, 04:53 AM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Ironically, there's a typo; you've missed out the first 't' in 'punctuation'.

Unless this is a spelling I haven't seen before. :| But yeah, this is useful.
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  #35  
Old 01-02-2009, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Maybe you should add a bit about 'wether' in the whether/weather section. I learned a few months ago that my parents have been spelling it wrong for over thirty years. Just for reference, if you do put it up, 'wether' means 'a gelded male sheep.'

And maybe a bit on hyphenated (spelling?) numbers; you're only supposed to have hyphens in between numbers in the tens and the ones, such as sixty-seven or thirty-two. So the correct spelling would be one hundred fifty-four. Oh yeah, and there's no 'and' in between any parts of a spelled-out number.

Perhaps there should be a whole section on hyphens in general? For instance, I'm pretty sure some people need reminding about hyphenated adjectives, such as 'spelled-out' in the previous paragraph.

And finally, adding to the numbers, you should never begin a sentence with a numeral. An example:

2 people stayed behind. is wrong

You have to write it out as Two people stayed behind.

...I feel scared of all these mods D:
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  #36  
Old 01-02-2009, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow_lugia View Post
Oh yeah, and there's no 'and' in between any parts of a spelled-out number.
Actually there most definitely is in British English. Not in American English, I know, but there is in British.
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  #37  
Old 01-02-2009, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow_lugia View Post
Maybe you should add a bit about 'wether' in the whether/weather section. I learned a few months ago that my parents have been spelling it wrong for over thirty years. Just for reference, if you do put it up, 'wether' means 'a gelded male sheep.'
If you can think of a conceivable situation in which a regular person would feel the need to use the word "wether", sure. Otherwise I don't see the point. Keeping it simple, yeah?

Quote:
And maybe a bit on hyphenated (spelling?) numbers; you're only supposed to have hyphens in between numbers in the tens and the ones, such as sixty-seven or thirty-two. So the correct spelling would be one hundred fifty-four.
This isn't grammar, and do people really get it wrong?

Quote:
Oh yeah, and there's no 'and' in between any parts of a spelled-out number.
>:(

Quote:
Perhaps there should be a whole section on hyphens in general? For instance, I'm pretty sure some people need reminding about hyphenated adjectives, such as 'spelled-out' in the previous paragraph.
I don't think this is a particularly pressing concern.

Quote:
And finally, adding to the numbers, you should never begin a sentence with a numeral. An example:

2 people stayed behind. is wrong

You have to write it out as Two people stayed behind.
You should never use numerals for numbers under a hundred in writing, period. Still not grammar, though.

Quote:
Ironically, there's a typo; you've missed out the first 't' in 'punctuation'.
Spelling is not grammar. >:( There is nothing ironic about it.
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  #38  
Old 01-02-2009, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyrous Castform View Post
Actually there most definitely is in British English. Not in American English, I know, but there is in British.
This may just be a result of only hearing the American English variant rarely, but 'two thousand nine', 'one hundred one' and so on sounds pretty ridiculous to me. :(
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Antonín Dvořák was a romantic period composer famous for composing the New World Symphony and his surname is pronounced DVOR-zhahk; August Dvorak was an American psychologist who co-created the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard and his surname is pronounced DVOR-ak;
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whom is used when it is the object of a pronoun or with the indirect object;
oddly enough, if you sprinkle pi around with some numbers and symbols it doesn't actually look mathematical or clever;
the suffix is -ful, not -full: powerful, painful, joyful.
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  #39  
Old 01-02-2009, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

I know this was months ago, but I only just remembered I had been meaning to address this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eevee View Post
Oh Reginald~

I disagree!


I've always thought this is a terrible rule. It's also an American invention; as I understand it, the original British rule (and a newer American rule, naturally) is logical quotation: when the punctuation at the end of a quote occurs at the end of the containing sentence, only put it on the inside if it matches. Otherwise you end up with nonsense like this: Did he tell me "turn the oven off?"

It also makes more sense when quoting short phrases or parts of sentences, since you don't end up sticking end-of-sentence punctuation where it doesn't belong: He called evolution "just a theory".

Wikipedia's manual of style agrees B)
The relevant section deals specifically with dialogue, which is all too often the subject of silly mistakes. I agree that in other cases (like direct quotations) the punctuation mark can and should, depending on the context, be placed after the closing quotation mark.

The matter is also debatable when it comes to dialogue (Ruby was sure to provide me with an abundance of contrived examples demonstrating this point), but I think it is practical, given the nature of this guide, to state this rule, since in the majority of cases it does not lead to any ambiguity.
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  #40  
Old 01-02-2009, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: Simple Grammar

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNiall View Post
This may just be a result of only hearing the American English variant rarely, but 'two thousand nine', 'one hundred one' and so on sounds pretty ridiculous to me. :(
I have to agree.
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