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  #21  
Old 03-04-2015, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

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Burn: The pokémon is inflicted with a second-degree burn that constantly stings and throbs, dealing it 3% damage per round if it is not further aggravated.
Doesn't say anything about 1 per action, but I will edit it. The other things have also been edited...
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  #22  
Old 03-04-2015, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

...I originally had a thing you were supposed to respond to in my first post which is why I posted without commands, but I removed it because pop quizzes are mean. I guess that means I should go ahead and command then.

Anyway, your description is a bit better now. Try to keep up at least this level.

3% per round is identical to 1% per action, because there are three actions in a round. Damage that occurs over a round is usually understood to be happening over time. When Juliette is burned, it hurts her the whole time just enough to amount to about 3% in a round, it's not that she's fine most of the time but suddenly some health gets sapped from her just because the round ends. So when a status condition affects her for only part of the round, you lower the damage accordingly.

Try to imagine what damage over a round represents. It's an abstraction of something that has been causing the pokemon pain throughout the round. So if the pokemon has only been hurting for one third of the round, what does it mean? Two thirds? Et cetera. As a referee, it's not enough to apply rules just because it says so somewhere. Think about what they mean and why they're there. (Well, that's getting into advanced ref territory, but you should still be able to apply that to basic concepts like burn damage.)

--

Right, Juliette. Looks like the random number gods have had their say, so let's not do anything too chancy this time. Venoshock, then chill and earthquake. Wake-up slap if she uses rest. Chill if your move won't hit (because protect, etc). If you've already chilled on the first action and she's not using rest or preventing you from attacking her, go ahead and use venoshock on the second action.

Venoshock / Chill / Wake-up Slap ~ Chill / Wake-up Slap / Venoshock ~ Earthquake / Chill / Wake-up Slap
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  #23  
Old 03-04-2015, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Cynderella? Cynder? I don't think this will end very well for you. I'm sorry, Cynder.

But that doesn't mean we can't try!

Alright? So, we're going to give them two Eruptions. Then, detect that Earthquake - let's see if we can make it to the next round relatively well. You're doing well, Cynderella.

Eruption~Eruption~Detect
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  #24  
Old 03-05-2015, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Round 4
allitersonance
Croagunk
Juliette (F) Anticipation (expert belt)
Health: 85%
Energy: 30%
Status: Oh, I am so glad that other fire didn't hit me! (Burned -3% hp each round, -3% physical damage)
Commands: Venoshock~Chill~chill

Lilypad
cyndaquil
Cynderella (F) Blaze (charcoal)
Health: 29%
Energy: 71%
Status: Shivering a little. Blaze activated. Badly poisoned (-1% this round, -2% next round) -1 speed
Commands: Eruption~ Eruption~Detect

Cynderella roared. A deep reservoir of power suddenly unlocked itself within her, making her glow a faint red colour. She could feel the flames inside her burning deeply with rage and anger and frustration. She knew she did not have much time left, so she had to make her last few attacks count. The flame on her back burned brightly and suddenly expanded, creating a large torrent of lava and rocks. The charcoal in her hands burned brightly, fuelling the flames that swamped the Croagunk completely. Juliette screamed and spluttered, the attack throwing her back a little. And then as soon as it happened, it was over. Juliette shivered, and stood up angrily. That little punk would pay for that! She started to gag and retch a little before spitting out an odd colour liquid. It seeped into Cynderella's bloodstream through her skin, and suddenly began to burn horribly as the toxins reacted with the poisons already coursing through her body. She whimpered and squeaked a little, but she knew that she would not give up.

Again she found a deep power within herself, though it was not as strong as before, it still burned through her like a forest fire. Again she yelled, her eyes glowing as a wave of lava coursed over the Croagunk. Juliette yet again found herself screaming a little as the lava burned through her. But soon, it was over, and seemed to be slightly less painful that the last time she had been swamped with lava. She reminded herself that the battle was to be over soon, she definitely had the advantage in this match up right now. She tried her best to relax and sit down, but found that the burn on her skin was slightly distracting her from her task. The Croagunk sighed a little, wishing that a Rawst berry was nearby, and then closed her eyes.

Cynderella wavered a little. She didn't have much time left. Her muscles were aching all over from the bruises caused by the strong punches earlier. She looked at the Croagunk carefully. One hit to make the difference here, she thought, keeping her eyes unblinking at Juliette. The Croagunk figured that attacking would not achieve anything, and then lay down to rest. Cynderella grinned, she had survived another round! But her grin turned into a grimace when the poison began to bite. She shivered a little, and resisted the urge to throw up, only comforted slightly by the pain that Juliette seemed to be in from her burn.

allitersonance
Croagunk
Juliette (F) Anticipation (expert belt)
Health: 64%
Energy: 43%
Status: Tired. (Burned -3% hp each round, -3% physical damage)
Commands: Venoshock~Chill~chill

Lilypad
cyndaquil
Cynderella (F) Blaze (charcoal)
Health: 12%
Energy: 65%
Status: I will never give up! Blaze activated. Badly poisoned (-2% this round, -3% next round) -1 speed
Commands: Eruption~ Eruption~Detect


Notes
I halved the amount of energy chill gave, as the burn and the strong attack distracted Juliette.
Sunny day will last for 2 more actions.
Lilypad to command next

Calculations

Eruption: 10% damage 2% energy
Venoshock: 15% damage 2% energy
Eruption: 6% damage 2% energy
Chill: +5 energy
Detect: 2% energy 23
Chill +10 energy

Eruption round 2:
150-86= 64
6.4*1.3= 8.32
8.32/4=2.08
8.32+2.08=10.04
10.4*1.25=13
13+2=15
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Last edited by Noctowl; 03-05-2015 at 11:39 PM.
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  #25  
Old 03-05-2015, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

I gave the command "Chill if your move won't hit (because protect, etc)," which absolutely would be triggered by detect (as well as things like dig if Juliette was using venoshock or something). Commands are allowed to be that broad, and would work as long as the opponent is doing something the pokemon can see - so if Cynderella is visible when Juliette decides whether or not to earthquake, and Cynderella is using detect, Juliette would be able to see that and change her actions accordingly. If Cynderella had been underground and used protect, meanwhile, Juliette would earthquake anyway because there'd be no way for Juliette to know that.
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  #26  
Old 03-05-2015, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Would that mean detect would only cost 2% energy?
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  #27  
Old 03-05-2015, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Yes, because it did not have to block any attacks.
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  #28  
Old 03-05-2015, 05:49 AM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Hmmm.

Darling, you've done fantastic. Let's try to get as much damage as possible in before you faint. Start with a Toxic, unless you're taunted, which means you should overheat. If you can't hit, Smokescreen.

If you're still awake by the second action, endure. Unless you're taunted, in which case overheat. Unless you're taunted and can't hit, in which case smokescreen. If you make it to the third action - wow - do the same thing.

Toxic/Overheat/Smokescreen~Endure/Overheat/Smokescreen x2
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  #29  
Old 03-05-2015, 07:09 AM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Now for stuff I don't expect to matter as much to Lilypad's commands.

In your "calculations" thing, you had earthquake ready to cause 14% damage... technically it's ref's discretion, but at that time you basically reffed earthquake in the usual way, just stomping on the ground and the earth shakes. The way burn is described is that it reduces physical attack damage as a penalty for movement, it's not a basic attack drop - so while it's going to make Juliette's punches weaker, because she has to cross the battlefield to smack her opponent, if she doesn't have to move that much, it'll affect her damage output as much as it would a special attack, i.e. little to none.

The badly poisoned status doesn't double every round, it increments by 1%, so it should be causing 3% next round (remember - that's identical to 1% per action, so if on the first action I do 11% damage, I'd expect Cynderella to faint).

Venoshock should be 16% damage (the base power is 130 when the victim is poisoned). Energy-wise, this is a trickier one - conventionally it doesn't increase in energy cost when the power is increased, because the power is increased due to the status of the opponent. It doesn't cost more energy because the pokemon isn't putting more effort into the attack; it's a similar principle to how it doesn't cost more to use a super-effective attack than it does to use a normally effective attack.

Conversely, eruption's base damage varies due to the amount of power the user can put in at once, so its energy cost does change.

Your descriptions have improved, but, um, I notice a lot of wording feels very familiar to me because (naturally) I've been consulting the database and such. Try not to copy the wording of the move descriptions, even though you're trying to convey the same thing. It's better if you try to think about what it actually looks like. Cynderella attacked my poor croagunk with a blast of rock that's so hot that it's not just glowing red/orange/yellow, but the rock has melted...! The rock explodes out of the earth (usually, since Cynderella isn't a numel or camerupt) and rains down and splatters all over Juliette's exposed skin :( :( :(. But it's also an attack that weakens when the user's stamina has gone down, so it's relatively a very small blast, probably not that impressive. Venoshock also isn't just a bit of poisonous spit or anything, it's a rather substantial amount of liquid, enough to be described as a "torrent" in the move description. Pay attention to those details, they're how refs help make battles come to life.

Anyway keep in mind that one paragraph per time-wise action is the minimum; one paragraph per performed action is more standard when interesting things are happening. So, like, a paragraph for every move, generally, unless very little happens or it's repetitive or just not very interesting. You don't want to bloat your prose with too much stuff but it'll be something you'll want to work on if you want to advance past the novice rank.

You don't have to rush with reffings and whatnot... well, in most battles people do appreciate it when their refs are quick, and I do as much as anyone, but this is a test battle, meaning you want to show your best work, not your quickest. I can ref three times a day because I can basically faceplant on my keyboard and the entire post is there, but I've been at this for years, and even I make small mistakes. Feel free to take your time to make sure your calculations are correct, that you've interpreted everything correctly, that you've asked the questions you need clarification on, et cetera. Speed is only a virtue if it doesn't dip your reffing's quality below what it needs to be. This is supposed to be a learning experience, but not all learning has to take place after you've posted a round for corrections. When you start reffing for normal battlers, they're not going to be double-checking your calculations or anything, but they still should be correct.

Oh, yeah, and I'm going to grab both eruptions - walk me through how you calculated the damage there, plus indicate how much the new energy cost should be in light of my fifth paragraph. Something like x base damage, times y due to Modifier A, plus z because Modifier B; show rounding too, of course.

I... would like this separate from your next reffing, so I'll wait for it before I issue commands.
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  #30  
Old 03-05-2015, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

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Originally Posted by allitersonance View Post
Now for stuff I don't expect to matter as much to Lilypad's commands.

In your "calculations" thing, you had earthquake ready to cause 14% damage... technically it's ref's discretion, but at that time you basically reffed earthquake in the usual way, just stomping on the ground and the earth shakes. The way burn is described is that it reduces physical attack damage as a penalty for movement, it's not a basic attack drop - so while it's going to make Juliette's punches weaker, because she has to cross the battlefield to smack her opponent, if she doesn't have to move that much, it'll affect her damage output as much as it would a special attack, i.e. little to none.

The badly poisoned status doesn't double every round, it increments by 1%, so it should be causing 3% next round (remember - that's identical to 1% per action, so if on the first action I do 11% damage, I'd expect Cynderella to faint).

Venoshock should be 16% damage (the base power is 130 when the victim is poisoned). Energy-wise, this is a trickier one - conventionally it doesn't increase in energy cost when the power is increased, because the power is increased due to the status of the opponent. It doesn't cost more energy because the pokemon isn't putting more effort into the attack; it's a similar principle to how it doesn't cost more to use a super-effective attack than it does to use a normally effective attack.
I swear it did say before that the energy was doubled too...eh. I can't get anything right it seems.
Quote:
Conversely, eruption's base damage varies due to the amount of power the user can put in at once, so its energy cost does change.
Maybe I got those two moves mixed up in terms of energy changes.
Quote:

Oh, yeah, and I'm going to grab both eruptions - walk me through how you calculated the damage there, plus indicate how much the new energy cost should be in light of my fifth paragraph. Something like x base damage, times y due to Modifier A, plus z because Modifier B; show rounding too, of course.
Eh, for erruption, the base power was:
150-amount of hp that has been removed.

So, for round 1, it was 150-71=79 base power. But then it was multiplied by 1.3 due to blaze, which brought it up to 9 damage. add in 2 damage stab, which makes 11, and then the sunny day and charcoal would make it 14 damage, which is one more than I was expecting. So I have edited it now.

This meant the damage didn't vary that much, I think, but I thought it made the most sense.
Following the calculations for the energy, this would leve the energy for the first attack being at 2, which seems quite low, and would leave the second round with the same amount of energy as well.
Quote:

I... would like this separate from your next reffing, so I'll wait for it before I issue commands.
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Last edited by Noctowl; 03-05-2015 at 01:53 PM.
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  #31  
Old 03-05-2015, 02:29 PM
allitersonance allitersonance is offline
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Where did you get that calculation for the base power from?

That was one point I expected to see you ask questions on. It's not in the database but it's not the type of thing you'd expect the referee to just make up - base power for all other moves are standardised, after all. Damage and energy in general tries to be more or less consistent between refs. The database is still in its early stages and isn't complete and perfect, so sometimes information will be missing. In those cases, it's usually best to ask.

Another alternate option is that grabbing the way the move works from the games is usually reliable. In this case, you would multiply by the decimal conversion of the percentage of health left (so for the first one, 150*0.29 = 43.6). This is also what you would have found if you searched the Attacks and Abilities Guide for old rulings.
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  #32  
Old 03-05-2015, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

I thought it would make sense.
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Old 03-05-2015, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

That isn't a justification for something as fundamental as base power calculation. You can use it for things like flavour, or how to interpret commands and how moves work and interact, but not for a fundamental part of the math.

"I thought it would make sense" is fine if you decide, when I thunderbolt while immersed in water surrounded by three pokemon, that the electricity hits everyone in the water (there are actually rulings on that, but refs have been reffing electricity-water interactions that way even before Negrek said so). It works if I use gust while a smokescreen is on the field, and even if I didn't intend it that way, the smokescreen gets torn apart and stops being in effect. Those are things that you would be expected to use sense to determine because they're just "these moves would interact this way because of commonly-known physics". They're interpretations. That's why sense works on those.

One of the major things holding you back from passing is that you're not checking if your decisions are correct. As I've said, the question box is there. Use it. You're a novice so it's quite probable you don't know how everything works. That's okay as long as the final content of your reffings is correct, though. And you can bridge the gap quite easily with one simple instinct: "If I don't know how it works, I can find out."

I guess I should've done res's "this is an open-book exam" spiel at the beginning of this match. It's not impressive to not use the question box, that just means you're not using a resource you have on hand.


Okay, to go a little more in-depth with your calculation... blaze, sunny day, and STAB are all multiplicative, so 79 base power --> 7% base damage going by standard stuff, blaze is x1.3 which does bring it up to 9%, STAB does bring it up to 11%, and... sunny day is another x1.25 on that, bringing it up to 13%, and charcoal adds +2% to the final thing which means it would've been 15% going by your standards.

I personally do not round until the very end and I also use base power over ten as my base damage, so I'd actually do 7.9*1.3*1.25*1.25+2 = 18%, because I'm not a big fan of rounding error. Rounding at every step... used to be recommended, but it no longer seems to be the case.

Energy also is the base power divided by 20 (same as base damage divided by two), rounded up, plus some other modifiers described in the DEG. So with 79 bp, base energy would be 4%, and with STAB it's 3%.

Recalculate the eruptions the same as you did before, with the correct base power, and then edit your post with the correct version. When you correct your post, make sure to make everything consistent with the new and correct version too; in the end stats summary, you still say Juliette used earthquake, for example.

Last edited by allitersonance; 03-05-2015 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 03-05-2015, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Uh... right, looks like you edited but not with what I was looking for.

The in-depth calculation part was using your original base power so I could compare the process and show what results you should have gotten with that base power, but as I've mentioned, that's not what the base power should be.

I have given you the correct version of the eruption base power calculation in my post. Use it to calculate the final damage of both eruptions, and make a post showing every step of the calculations like you did previously. Also show how much the new energy cost should be.

Keep in mind that blaze's description says it "effectively raises the base power of all the Fire-type attacks this Pokémon uses by 1.3×". When you look at the damage and energy calculation instructions in the DEG, would that interact with anything? Is it clear how you would deal with that? How would you find out?
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Old 03-05-2015, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Okay there's a reason I asked you to make a post with eruption calculations - I don't get notified when you edit or anything and you haven't pinged me either. Also, it gets eaten when you edit it.

I'm not actually sure where you got those calculations any more, actually.

The calculation for base damage of eruption is now in the database. Note that, in a conventional battle where pokemon start with 100% health, the percentage of health a pokemon has is identical to the fraction of health the pokemon has.

Make a new post and describe for me how the final damage and energy of the eruptions are calculated. Show your work and rationale; you don't have to show the new damage amount at every step if you don't round, as long as it's clear where all modifiers are coming from. So you'll have to identify how much health Cynderella has at the beginning of the first and second actions, so that you can show what you're supposed to multiply eruption's power by.

They should not both amount to the same final damage because venoshock was used between eruptions, meaning that Cynderella's remaining health was different both times when she used eruption.

(I guess you're totally reading this, mods. I'd suggest saying the base power and energy "varies" rather than listing it as 15% base damage, since that more accurately reflects how it's going to be used.)
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Old 03-05-2015, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

150 (29/100)/100: 4.35
stab: 5.35
Blaze: 6.955
sunny day: 8.69
Charcoal: 10.69
Rounds: 10

energy: 2%

14/100= 0.14 and then that times 150: 21
18/10= 2.1
Blaze:2.73
plus stab: 3.4125
Sunny day: 4.265625
Charcoal: 6
Round: 6
Energy: 2
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

I'm guessing the second /100 is to convert base power to base damage; it should be dividing by ten. You ended up dividing by ten correctly for the first one but not the second. So an eruption used with 12% health will have 18 base power, or 1.8% base damage.

Cynderella should be regarded as having 14 or 13 health before the second eruption, because she hasn't taken a full round's worth of poison damage at that point. It's the start of the second action so she has taken one action's worth of poison damage. Since it's two points of damage over three actions you can decide if you think the first point of damage will happen between the first and second actions, or if it's only after the second because rounding. (Conceptually it's 0.67ish damage per action; I'd round down for between-action things here.) But the difference between 14% and 12% health could actually matter a little bit for the final damage.

Since you're keeping decimals, it's most consistent if you're not rounding until the very end. But then your calculations are rather odd - 4.35*1.25 = 5.4375 (for STAB), it looks like you just added +1. Also as you can see, the number is quite ugly already with too many decimal places, which is why I don't actually require you to show the total after every step, just say something like "*1.3*1.25*1.25 for blaze, STAB, and weather". It rounds down to the same amount in the end but keep it in mind.

It doesn't matter in the end, but conceptually, blaze should happen first (before STAB) because it's a modifier on the base damage. This helps because you're using it for your base energy calculation.

Anyway, better now. Recalculate the second eruption, and then we should be ready to move on.
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

I am using the google calculator for my calculations, that is probably why.

Anyway, hopefully it is fixed.
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Looks good now. You forgot the burn damage though, so I should have 66% final health. Normally the calculations are simple, and it's just keeping track of the changes to health and energy that might cause difficulty, so try not to forget.

I also mentioned that venoshock on poison is 130 base power so with STAB that's 16%, I think you missed the change.

But we can keep going now. After all that, I feel like something simple, so...

Chill ~ Earthquake ~ Chill
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Old 03-05-2015, 11:27 PM
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Default Re: Lilypad Vs allitersonance

Round 5
allitersonance
Croagunk
Juliette (F) Anticipation (expert belt)
Health: 69%
Energy: 43%
Status: Tired. (Burned -3% hp each round, -3% physical damage)
Commands: Chill~Earthquake~chill

Lilypad
cyndaquil
Cynderella (F) Blaze (charcoal)
Health: 12%
Energy: 65%
Status: I will never give up! Blaze activated. Badly poisoned (-2% this round, -3% next round) -1 speed
Commands: Toxic~ Endure~Endure

Cynderella's flame on the back of her body burned a strange purple colour as she began to collect toxins from her body. The Croagunk sat down and watched with interest, not even flinching as the toxic chemicals were spat on her body. She grinned and rubbed the toxic into her body, as if to show off her immunity to the poisons. The Cyndaquil felt a pain in her gut that reminded her all too well of the fact that she was not immune at all. She sighed and then glared at the Crogunk, who was just..well, chilling on the grass.

Cynderella knew that the chilling wasn't to last. This was a battle, after all, and one attack could mean the difference between life and...well, fainting. Her body glowed a faint blue colour, and she began to tense her body. The Croagunk frowned a little, knowing that her attack would not faint the little blighter, but she still stomped firmly on the ground, sending seismic waves of ground energy flowing towards the little blue mouse Pokemon. Cracks in the ground began to form, making scars in the landscape. Cynderella squeaked and wailed, the super effective attack knocking her over and taking pretty much the last of the wind out of her sails. When it was over, she had a few seconds to ponder about the battle before the pain of the poison was too much for her.


Round 5
allitersonance
Croagunk
Juliette (F) Anticipation (expert belt)
Health: 64%
Energy: 48%
Status: I did it! (Burned -1% hp each action, -3% physical damage)
Commands: Chill~Earthquake

Lilypad
cyndaquil
Cynderella (F) Blaze (charcoal)
Health: 0%
Energy: 52%
Status: Knocked out!
Commands: Toxic~ Endure

Calculations:
Toxic: 4% energy
Chill: 10 energy
Poison:1
Burn: 1%

Endure: poison took off 1 damage. 11 hp
11-17= -6 +2 (base energy)=8
Earthquake: would have done 17% damage, 5% energy
Poison: 1
Burn: 1

Notes:
The weather is now clear.
Toxic has no effect on poison types.
Lilypad needs to send a Pokemon out now. allitersonance commands next.
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Last edited by Noctowl; 03-06-2015 at 07:59 PM.
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