Is it necessary for a trans* person to transition?

QUILTBAG Club Thread said:

Jolty said:

if you have no desire to transition (note: different from not being able to), you're not trans. if you are fine with seeing yourself as your birth sex, you are not trans.

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Pathos said:

Bullshit.

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Jolty said:

if you don't want to transition and are totally fine with your birth sex, what exactly makes one trans?
please tell me

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Pathos said:

The fact that their gender =/= assigned gender at birth?

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Jolty said:

"i'm male but i'm totes ok with having boobs and a vagina and i won't change any of it"
makes all the sense.

i don't want to clog this thread is there somewhere else we can move this to

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Basically, the debate is, if someone who considers themselves trans* chooses not to transition, whether physically or socially, does that make them cis?

Personally, I say a person gets to decide how they want to respond to their gender. In the same way that your body and society don't get to dictate your gender, how you choose to change your body and how you are perceived don't either.

You can't be transgender/transsexual and love the body you were born into, that's a complete oxymoron. The entire point of being trans is dysphoria, so choosing not to transition because you're fine with your body makes no sense at all. That's called being cis.

As for physical vs social transition, isn't it all just one thing? No picking one or the other, it's both or nothing? Why would you just "socially transition" while you still look like your birth sex and will do forever?

Why does dysphoria have to be the end-all-be-all of trans*ness? Plenty of trans* people don't mind the bodies they were born into, and for plenty more, hormones and surgery aren't even an option. Also, some cis people desire the opposite set of genitalia without actually being trans*. How you relate to your body is not necessarily the same thing as gender. Plus, there are all sorts non-binary genders that don't even have a corresponding set of genitals or easily identified chest shape. (seriously have you ever tried to make your chest androgynous without it being flat it is impossible)

Also, some people look extremely androgynous and can pass as a different gender without the need for hormones or surgery, which is one of the reasons I am separating social gender and physical aspects of gender.

Well, the psychology definition of gender is the learned and adopted roles and behaviors associated with being male/ female. Ultimately what we consider gender roles are abstract and malleable, but in our everyday lives they are concrete and defined. So by that definition one could be trans-gendered by not identifying with their assigned gender role. It would probably be more accurate to accurate to call someone who is uncomfortable with their physiological sex, rather than gender, trans-sexual.

This seems like one of those definition-centric debates that don't really give us any better understanding of anything in the end other than different ways words can be used.

if sexuality can be a spectrum, it physical expression of sex can be a spectrum, if gender can be a spectrum, why can't the interaction of gender + sex be a spectrum?

Dinru said:

Why does dysphoria have to be the end-all-be-all of trans*ness?

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because it is
that is the only symptom of it.

Plenty of trans* people don't mind the bodies they were born into, and for plenty more, hormones and surgery aren't even an option.

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that's called being cis.

Also, some cis people desire the opposite set of genitalia without actually being trans*. How you relate to your body is not necessarily the same thing as gender.

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yes there are cis people who wish they had the other set of bits, but their lives aren't crippled by not having it. they're fine with the ones they have. trans people may be able to learn to cope with the bits they were born with, but they won't be happy with them.

Plus, there are all sorts non-binary genders that don't even have a corresponding set of genitals or easily identified chest shape. (seriously have you ever tried to make your chest androgynous without it being flat it is impossible)

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do non binaries transition or do they just try to appear androgynous or what
I don't understand why they'd feel the need to transition if they are neither gender? since transitioning is going from one thing to the other. the only thing i can think of for someone to make themselves actually look more androgynous with this way is a female-born person getting top surgery but how often does that even happen if they're not a trans man?

Also, some people look extremely androgynous and can pass as a different gender without the need for hormones or surgery, which is one of the reasons I am separating social gender and physical aspects of gender.

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but 99%+ of the time they will still be either male or female.

Well, the psychology definition of gender is the learned and adopted roles and behaviors associated with being male/ female. Ultimately what we consider gender roles are abstract and malleable, but in our everyday lives they are concrete and defined. So by that definition one could be trans-gendered by not identifying with their assigned gender role. It would probably be more accurate to accurate to call someone who is uncomfortable with their physiological sex, rather than gender, trans-sexual.

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Yes, transsexual is/was the proper word but in the past however many years transgender has been used to mean the same and I guess it's not as accurate. Since you can't really change your gender.

Jolty said:

because it is
that is the only symptom of it.

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I hate to use anecdotal evidence, but I'm trans (DFAB genderqueer androgyne) and have no real desire to even come out to 99% of the people I know in real life. Clearly there's more to transliness than dysphoria, because my personal experiences say so! And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I simply don't see myself as a girl, but I'm okay with it if other people think of me as such. Or if they think of me as a boy, but that's only happened a handful of times. I'm secure enough in my identity to not have to tell everyone I know about it. I do experience some dysphoria, but not a crippling amount. (also yes i realize this argument is kind of shitty but we're heading into territory that's never been extensively studied here.)

Jolty said:

do non binaries transition or do they just try to appear androgynous or what
I don't understand why they'd feel the need to transition if they are neither gender? since transitioning is going from one thing to the other. the only thing i can think of for someone to make themselves actually look more androgynous with this way is a female-born person getting top surgery but how often does that even happen if they're not a trans man?

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Because many non-binaries feel dysphoric? From what I've gathered, usually non-binary transitions involve a lot of the same procedures as binary-to-binary trans folk go through (top surgery, hormones, face surgery if available and necessary but to make the face look androgynous, etc.) but the social aspect of the transition involves different pronouns and having to explain a bajilion times that you're not a boy or a girl.

Jolty said:

do non binaries transition or do they just try to appear androgynous or what
I don't understand why they'd feel the need to transition if they are neither gender? since transitioning is going from one thing to the other. the only thing i can think of for someone to make themselves actually look more androgynous with this way is a female-born person getting top surgery but how often does that even happen if they're not a trans man?

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i for one would like to get top surgery and a hysterectomy :|b though I have medical reasons to pursue the latter. also have been considering a binder....

also I really don't get why you're opposed to social-only transition.

WOW THIS THREAD IS REALLY UPSETTING

sometimes people dont want to transition. ok. wow. big deal. this is fine and there is no way to say 'oh well ur not TRANS enough' because that kind of stuff is so frickin gross and the more you do that the more i get upset because aren't we supposed to be a community demonstrating openness and honesty with oneself and all that noise

sometimes people don't want to transition because they just don't. those of us who are trans ought to know how important it is that we are recognized for whatever gender we identify as *despite* what we may look like. isn't it the recognition of our identity and not the conformation to physical standards that's important here? i mean hell if you're gonna pull that line of thought, the 'if you don't try and look male then you're not male,' then fuck, what about femme boys, what about crossdressers, what about those of us who don't transition into being giant bulky bears and shit.

sometimes people don't *want* the very typical bits of a certain sex. sometimes it's because they know they are, for instance, male, but are a-ok with their vag. sometimes it's because they are repulsed or even triggered by the characteristics they'd be transitioning into. sometimes it's because they feel the transition isn't even worth it (surgery has come a long way but it is hardly flawless). sometimes it's because they actually can't for various medical reasons, or monetary reasons, or familial or whatever.

AND SOMETIMES THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO and i don't see how it is your business that they identify as trans* but are either not as dysphoric as you or not dysphoric at all or are dysphoric in totally different non-physical ways.

being trans* isn't a disease. you don't diagnose it by looking at the symptoms and then treat it by applying medicine and surgery. that's not how it works. there are no regular symptoms. there are no miracle cures. we're not talking about a nonfunctioning kidney here.

i mean if you're going to say you have to experience dysphoria to be trans* then what does that mean. do you have to suffer from a regular schedule of dysphoria. three hours a week at least, most often on tuesdays and thursdays. a sum of one week out of every month of uncomfortable feelings.

like, i know for a frickin fact i'm trans*. this isn't just because from time to time i get crippling dysphoria but because i just *know.* and that's a good thing because it's not like every moment is filled with upset about having tits. most of the time i don't even think about it. i'm more concerned that people use my pronouns and name than my body magically conforming to what everyone knows as male. and you know, suitably, most of my dysphoria has to do with a hypothetical transition. the cost, the lack of guarantee, the fact that even if i get top surgery and stuff a plastic dick down my pants i will still get pegged as female. the transition isn't going to be the fucking cure.

and suggesting that you have to transition to be trans* is just goddamn hurtful. because guess what i'm not doing right now. did you guess. it's transitioning.

are you going to tell me that you don't believe me when i talk about my identity.

why not 'people with vaginas' or 'people with penises' because i'd much rather be called that than female.

i'm afraid that because you're cis your thoughts on what it means to be trans don't really apply gomennasai

Viki said:

i for one would like to get top surgery and a hysterectomy :|b though I have medical reasons to pursue the latter. also have been considering a binder....

also I really don't get why you're opposed to social-only transition.

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hysterectomies aren't a trans thing though, women get them all the time.

Verne said:

sometimes people don't want to transition because they just don't. those of us who are trans ought to know how important it is that we are recognized for whatever gender we identify as *despite* what we may look like. isn't it the recognition of our identity and not the conformation to physical standards that's important here? i mean hell if you're gonna pull that line of thought, the 'if you don't try and look male then you're not male,' then fuck, what about femme boys, what about crossdressers, what about those of us who don't transition into being giant bulky bears and shit.

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feminine men are still men. it's not nothing to do with how you act or dress or whatever it's with how you feel about your body.

sometimes people don't *want* the very typical bits of a certain sex. sometimes it's because they know they are, for instance, male, but are a-ok with their vag.

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ok maybe i can understand not wanting some of the things you'd get from transitioning but surely if you really felt you were the sex you weren't born as, you'd rather take the good /and/ bad than stick with all the stuff you were born with and live unhappily?

sometimes it's because they are repulsed or even triggered by the characteristics they'd be transitioning into. sometimes it's because they feel the transition isn't even worth it (surgery has come a long way but it is hardly flawless). sometimes it's because they actually can't for various medical reasons, or monetary reasons, or familial or whatever.

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i said right in the first quote in the post of this thread that i know there is a difference between not being able to and not wanting to. but the desire is still there, isn't it? you /want/ to be able to fix yourself, you're just not able to or you feel it's not good enough for you personally (e.g. lower surgery for trans men sometimes)

AND SOMETIMES THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO and i don't see how it is your business that they identify as trans* but are either not as dysphoric as you or not dysphoric at all or are dysphoric in totally different non-physical ways.

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why is trans an identity
it's a medical condition where your brain sex and body sex don't match up
and as i've said before, dysphoria is pretty much the only symptom of being trans.

trans* isn't a disease. you don't diagnose it by looking at the symptoms and then treat it by applying medicine and surgery. that's not how it works. there are no regular symptoms. there are no miracle cures. we're not talking about a nonfunctioning kidney here.

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no, that is exactly how it works. medical condition. gets treated with medication in the form of hormones and surgery. not being treated results in being able to function way less (so many years of my life have been wasted because of this) and sometimes even death because have you seen the suicide rate for trans people

i mean if you're going to say you have to experience dysphoria to be trans* then what does that mean. do you have to suffer from a regular schedule of dysphoria. three hours a week at least, most often on tuesdays and thursdays. a sum of one week out of every month of uncomfortable feelings.

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it means you have to friggin suffer from dysphoria jesus christ.

like, i know for a frickin fact i'm trans*. this isn't just because from time to time i get crippling dysphoria but because i just *know.* and that's a good thing because it's not like every moment is filled with upset about having tits. most of the time i don't even think about it. i'm more concerned that people use my pronouns and name than my body magically conforming to what everyone knows as male. and you know, suitably, most of my dysphoria has to do with a hypothetical transition. the cost, the lack of guarantee, the fact that even if i get top surgery and stuff a plastic dick down my pants i will still get pegged as female. the transition isn't going to be the fucking cure.

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transitioning will do you a hell of lot better than not transitioning though, right
obviously it's not going to be an instant fix but surely it's better than nothing happening.

and suggesting that you have to transition to be trans* is just goddamn hurtful. because guess what i'm not doing right now. did you guess. it's transitioning.

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it's kind of... in the name of the thing though... TRANSsexual
implying one TRANSitions
??
and yes guess what neither am I really because I'm still waiting 5fucking ever to be considered for testosterone but you still want to. there is a massive difference between not transitioning right now because difficulties, and not transitioning because you love your goddamn body

... said:

FIRST OFF I will be using male and female to refer to sex and not gender because as far as I'm aware they refer to sex. I've seen some people use them to refer to gender or to both but that seems... not useful? And saying "penis'd+testicle'd" sounds nasty to me; I'd hate to be called a "uterus bearer" or a "vagina holder." Even if that's what I'm using female as, I would rather be called female than either of those words. :x But if anyone knows better words please inform me because I haven't found any up until now.

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penises are male vaginas are female that's that really
something goes wrong and you end up having a male with a vagina or a female with a penis but they are still female and male sex organs respectively.

So I'm gonna say [TW unacceptance] that I am skeptical of people saying things like "I'm a man, but I would never want to have a male body, even if a magic fairy promised me I could transition perfectly/start my life over/anything that would make the transition lossless." Why? Because I don't understand what they mean. It literally just does not make sense however I spin it. And yeah, it doesn't have to make sense for me to be an ally and ~be supportive~ but I have to understand it.

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holy crap thank you this is exactly what i am trying to say.

Verne said:

i'm afraid that because you're cis your thoughts on what it means to be trans don't really apply gomennasai

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smells like tumblr in here no white cis straight males allowed

Don't want to get too deep into this discussion because I have little doubt it'll cause me more stress than I can be bothered with, but I'm curious:

Verne said:

why not 'people with vaginas' or 'people with penises' because i'd much rather be called that than female.

i'm afraid that because you're cis your thoughts on what it means to be trans don't really apply gomennasai

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What would be your response if a trans person asked the same question then? (the hair comparison question I mean)

Also, she was being very respectful and asked a legitimate question. There's no need to be so condescending. It's an open thread for discussion about trans issues, it's perfectly reasonable for her to pose a question like that and you didn't have to answer if you didn't want to.

Verne said:

i'm afraid that because you're cis your thoughts on what it means to be trans don't really apply gomennasai

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This kind of attitude is a great way to prevent anything from ever getting better. What you're saying is true, but hostility only serves to alienate. If a person is clearly making an effort not to be offensive and is actively trying to understand - futile though that attempt may be - you ought to seize the opportunity to enlighten someone who might actually be willing to listen. We'll all make some collective progress.

no okay look

you can subscribe to all the harry benjamin syndrome you want

*i am not ill for being trans.* and the more that you try to tell me that i have a ~medical condition~ the more i'm gonna get mad. your insistence that i have some sort of curable disease is just upsetting as hell

because it a) is not a medical problem. i'm not messed up on some level. and b) it isn't necessarily curable

in fact often dysphoria continues on even after medical transition. there's no magic switch here

and to be real honest? to be completely on the level here. i'm pretty sure that if i transition medically, if i take t and get surgery and all that, i'm still gonna be in the same place i was. i am still going to be this fucking 5'3 stocky kid with hips made for childbirth and a baby face and people are still going to call me she and her and i'm still going to get upset about the way i'm shaped and the way i'm treated.

so.

fuck that.

as for your 'penises are male vaginas are female' bs, screw you, my vagina is perfectly male. just like the rest of me. just like my tits are male just like my ass is male just like my whole body is male. i may not be totally happy with it most of the time, and i may wish that it was different sometimes, but it's still *my body* and it's mine to label and do with as i please. so that may mean that one day i'll edit it, get the breast tissue out so it's flat, but up to that point and even past it this is my male as fuck body so if you could please not say that vaginas are female that'd be fantastic

@byrus -- i don't like the hair comparison at all just because it makes way too much light of the issue at hand. hairdye and gender identity are hardly similar

@MD -- look, i'm sorry? but the standard opinion *everywhere else* is the cis opinion. every news article, every documentary, every whatever, it's done or led by a cis person, they frame the narration, they set the stage. so when i have the opportunity as a trans* person to clear this sort of thign up i don't want to have to hear the potentially caustic responses from people who aren't affected.

sorry i just. yeah i'm just upset

please don't make comparisons between trans issues and race issues... bad as being trans can be racism is really way above and beyond there :?

and i thought it was cute

Verne said:

please don't make comparisons between trans issues and race issues... bad as being trans can be racism is really way above and beyond there :?

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not to mention someone can be of colour AND trans at the SAME TIME and they have DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES from white trans people


Also ..., I reread your first post here a couple times and still couldn't work out what you were getting at. What even is that comparison? For one thing, hair colour is something immediately identifiable that as far as I'm aware isn't usually a massive societal thing.

ETA:

... said:

Okay, then let's compare it to ethnicity, because I've never understood transethnicism either. Race is a social construct. A physical spectrum. Can I say that I am black, even though my skin is not dark enough for anybody to call me black, ever? Would it be acceptable for me to walk up to a black person and say "I know what you've gone through in terms of racism. I'm black, too"? Can I say that if I get an operation that turns my skin dark enough for people to call me black?

I know this isn't a perfect analogy. Why? Because we've generally agreed that someone's race is not a costume or an "identity" that you can just appropriate. It's the reason blackface is unacceptable. But I do see parallels with the trans issue and I'd be curious to see this addressed.

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Holy fucking shit I missed this segment. Holy shit.

WOW. THERE ARE MANY POINTS YOU ARE MISSING HERE. Just. Please think about what you just typed. This is about on-level with equating otherkin with trans*ness, though there the answer is GRIFFONS AREN'T REAL.
ETA: PLEASE TAG YOUR ETAS WITH ETA SO I DON'T FEEL LIKE I MISSED SOMETHING IMPORTANT

... said:

You know what?

You're right.

Because I'm not trans, the gender dysphoria I've felt throughout my life doesn't count. Those hours spent staring at the mirror and thinking "I am a freak of nature" and just generally being disgusted at my body for not being feminine enough/masculine enough are just me being silly!

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It doesn't matter how silly/upsetting it was/is for you, it doesn't make you trans so you still haven't had trans experience. I don't understand your point here.

Okay, then let's compare it to ethnicity, because I've never understood transethnicism either. Race is a social construct. A physical spectrum. Can I say that I am black, even though my skin is not dark enough for anybody to call me black, ever? Would it be acceptable for me to walk up to a black person and say "I know what you've gone through in terms of racism. I'm black, too"? Can I say that if I get an operation that turns my skin dark enough for people to call me black?

I know this isn't a perfect analogy. Why? Because we've generally agreed that someone's race is not a costume or an "identity" that you can just appropriate. It's the reason blackface is unacceptable. But I do see parallels with the trans issue and I'd be curious to see this addressed.

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I'm sorry for appropriating the male gender, they are so oppressed because of us trans folk.

Verne said:

@MD -- look, i'm sorry? but the standard opinion *everywhere else* is the cis opinion. every news article, every documentary, every whatever, it's done or led by a cis person, they frame the narration, they set the stage. so when i have the opportunity as a trans* person to clear this sort of thign up i don't want to have to hear the potentially caustic responses from people who aren't affected.

sorry i just. yeah i'm just upset

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Right, but precisely because of the bullshit that shows up everywhere else, the occasional person who comes along and genuinely wants to talk about the other side of the story is something to appreciate.

Viki said:

Also ..., I reread your first post here a couple times and still couldn't work out what you were getting at. What even is that comparison? For one thing, hair colour is something immediately identifiable that as far as I'm aware isn't usually a massive societal thing.

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I would like to say that an analogy does not have to be perfect to be meaningful. Hair colour is not race is not gender, but the actual question being asked is clear enough, hair colour was just an example used to illustrate.

Pathos said:

I'm sorry for appropriating the male gender, they are so oppressed because of us trans folk.

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Again: this kind of hostility is extremely unhelpful. If you want to stop having to take flak from the rest of society, you can start by not alienating the few people who actually do their best to be respectful. Just politely address the questions being asked, and cut the ridiculous sarcasm. Everyone walks home wiser and happier.

WE AREN'T TAKING FLAK FROM THE REST OF SOCIETY CAUSE THE TRANS PEOPLE ARE BEING MEAN HOLY Shit we are taking flak. from the rest of society. because the rest of society has a tendency to be oppressive douchebags.

we have *no requirement* to be nice and patient and sweet to the same people who insult us and hurt us and murder us daily.

Verne said:

WE AREN'T TAKING FLAK FROM THE REST OF SOCIETY CAUSE THE TRANS PEOPLE ARE BEING MEAN HOLY Shit we are taking flak. from the rest of society. because the rest of society has a tendency to be oppressive douchebags.

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Yes. Therefore, the occasional non-oppressive non-douchebag is to be appreciated.

Verne said:

we have *no requirement* to be nice and patient and sweet to the same people who insult us and hurt us and murder us daily.

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I am fairly certain no such person has yet posted in this thread.