It is better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be wrongly convicted

Mymla said:

I did say "in this part of the world". Meaning western Europe. I know the US is still a bit worse off, especially in the gay department. But it's still legal in the whole country. There's nothing in the law that prevents a homosexual black woman from doing anything a heterosexual white man could do.

And that's what I meant. We are all equal in the eyes of the law. There are laws against assaulting, or even insulting someone, because of their heritage or sexual orientation, for example.

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You clearly have too high an opinion of western Europe if you think that gays have equal rights.

i remember i read an article once talking about how some actor or something had said "faggot" and there was a massive outcry and he had to make a public apology. that kind of makes me think that gay rights are in fact "taken for granted". i mean, there are definitely a lot of homophobes, but they're pretty widely scorned

perhaps the people who didn't care just sat around quietly?

Mymla said:

There's nothing in the law that prevents a homosexual black woman from doing anything a heterosexual white man could do.

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Except the whole "marrying a the person you love" part...

Zeta Reticuli said:

i remember i read an article once talking about how some actor or something had said "faggot" and there was a massive outcry and he had to make a public apology. that kind of makes me think that gay rights are in fact "taken for granted". i mean, there are definitely a lot of homophobes, but they're pretty widely scorned

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Social equality for gays does not mean that people actually notice when something blatantly homophobic happens. Social equality happens when blatantly homophobic things no longer happen at all.

Except the whole "marrying a the person you love" part...

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Gay marriage is legal in at least 4 European countries that I know of. Civil union, which is exactly like marriage except for the whole church bollocks is legal in a whole load of other countries. And I'm pretty sure it's legal in at least a few states.

Social equality for gays does not mean that people actually notice when something blatantly homophobic happens. Social equality happens when blatantly homophobic things no longer happen at all.

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So then you're saying we don't have 'social equality' for anyone, then, seeing as anyone can be subject to hate crime? "White people are all..." is just as racist as "Black people are all..."

Gay marriage is legal in at least 4 European countries that I know of. Civil union, which is exactly like marriage except for the whole church bollocks is legal in a whole load of other countries. And I'm pretty sure it's legal in at least a few states.

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Six countries, actually. Six out of... twenty? Depends on which you count, I suppose.

And no, civil unions are for the most part not the same as marriage.

opaltiger said:

Six countries, actually. Six out of... twenty? Depends on which you count, I suppose.

And no, civil unions are for the most part not the same as marriage.

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Britain, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Vatican City, Spain, Portugal, Malta, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Iceland, Austria, Switzerland, San Marino, Monaco, Lichtenstein, Andorra are what I consider to definitely be in Western Europe. I'm a bit iffy on Greece and Cyprus, but definitely the first 24.

Mymla said:

So then you're saying we don't have 'social equality' for anyone, then, seeing as anyone can be subject to hate crime? "White people are all..." is just as racist as "Black people are all..."

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Well, obviously. You can't have social equality for some racial groups. That's like saying "men are equal, women are not". It just makes no sense. Social equality is equality for everyone.

And anyone who says that any society on this planet has achieved social equality is lying.

I don't think Italy or the Vatican have civil unions. At most registered partnership. Czech Republic has registered partnership, maybe even civil unions already. Slovenia is passing the bill iirc.

It amazes me that Iceland has an openly gay head of state, but not gay marriage.

I realize they're getting there and have equal-right civil partnerships, but still.

In Ireland, we're getting a Civil Partnership Bill. Not even civil unions ffs.

Iceland is drafting legislation for marriage though iirc.

Mymla said:

Gay marriage is legal in at least 4 European countries that I know of. Civil union, which is exactly like marriage except for the whole church bollocks is legal in a whole load of other countries. And I'm pretty sure it's legal in at least a few states.

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Please take a look at this image. If you can honestly say that this is representative of social (or even legal) marriage, then there is something wrong with you. Dark blue is full marriage; light blue is some form of civil partnership. Anything yellow- or red-ish is absolutely terrible. Brown is the death penalty.

Also, "at least a few states" (out of 50, plus territories) is not impressive at all. Civil unions are never the same as marriage. Separate is never equal.

EvilCrazyMonkey said:

Also, "at least a few states" (out of 50, plus territories) is not impressive at all. Civil unions are never the same as marriage. Separate is never equal.

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it can be equivalent, though. except people won't let it be equivalent.

sreservoir said:

it can be equivalent, though. except people won't let it be equivalent.

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Even if it were equivalent it would still be discriminatory.

hence the second part.

EvilCrazyMonkey said:

Please take a look at this image. If you can honestly say that this is representative of social (or even legal) marriage, then there is something wrong with you. Dark blue is full marriage; light blue is some form of civil partnership. Anything yellow- or red-ish is absolutely terrible. Brown is the death penalty.

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In this part of the world anyhow. The rest of the world still needs work.

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Again. I only ever said that it was cool to be gay in the west. And I thought it'd be pretty well established by now how bloody backwards the middle east and africa is. Which is why there are still UN troops in Afghanistan.

Also, "at least a few states" (out of 50, plus territories) is not impressive at all. Civil unions are never the same as marriage. Separate is never equal.

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So if you're gay and you want to marry, you move to a state in which it's legal. I don't see the issue. Honestly, if you love someone enough to marry them, you love them enough to move.

But while we're on the subject, can someone explain to me why you'd want a christian marriage in the first place if you're gay? I mean, the bible puts homosexuals somewhere between murderers and heretics in the grand scheme of things, so why would you even want the blessing of that religion?

And why should the state even have the right to tell the christian church (or any religion really) that they should marry homosexuals? State and church are supposed to be separate, meaning that neiter should influence the other. If they want to have their bigoted beliefs, let them. But you can't tell them what to believe or do. That's being just as intolerant as they are towards gay people.

Civil union is, in my opinion, perfectly fine, as long as it gives the same legal benefits as marriage. And if you want to have a fancy ceremony with cake and rings and what not, it's not like you can't just have a pastafarian wedding or something.

if you're gay and you want to marry, you move to a state in which it's legal. I don't see the issue. Honestly, if you love someone enough to marry them, you love them enough to move.

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Yes, but the point is that they shouldn't have to move. Even if they are entirely willing to do so as a couple, they shouldn't have to move to another state to have equal rights.

And why should the state even have the right to tell the christian church (or any religion really) that they should marry homosexuals? State and church are supposed to be separate, meaning that neiter should influence the other. If they want to have their bigoted beliefs, let them. But you can't tell them what to believe or do. That's being just as intolerant as they are towards gay people.

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The thing is, the U.S. government hands out marriage licenses. Churches have every right to refuse to marry anyone they like, but once the government won't recognize you as a legally married pair, there's a problem.

Civil union is, in my opinion, perfectly fine, as long as it gives the same legal benefits as marriage. And if you want to have a fancy ceremony with cake and rings and what not, it's not like you can't just have a pastafarian wedding or something.

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giving someone the same rights as another person, but then going through it in a different way is just superfluous and pointless. I'm of the mind that everyone should get 'civil unions' and that marriage stay a religious or traditional thing, with nothing to do with the government.

People shouldn't be allowed to arbitrarily deny rights to other people for no reason other than old, bigoted ideas that have little-to-no bearing on the world of today. I'm just bothered by how many people don't see this as obvious.

Mymla said:

Again. I only ever said that it was cool to be gay in the west. And I thought it'd be pretty well established by now how bloody backwards the middle east and africa is. Which is why there are still UN troops in Afghanistan.

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Well, I never specifically pointed out the Middle East or Africa; I chose that map because I knew exactly where to find it and because it shows all of the West (which just happens to be a part of the world, which the map depicts). I didn't want to leave out what the yellow, red, and brown areas meant just to provide information so not everyone would ask what it means.

Mymla said:

So if you're gay and you want to marry, you move to a state in which it's legal. I don't see the issue. Honestly, if you love someone enough to marry them, you love them enough to move.

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No. Just no. Someone should not be forced to relocate because they want the same rights as anyone else. This is as much bullshit as any other argument against gay marriage. What if you like it perfectly fine wherever you are?

Mymla said:

But while we're on the subject, can someone explain to me why you'd want a christian marriage in the first place if you're gay? I mean, the bible puts homosexuals somewhere between murderers and heretics in the grand scheme of things, so why would you even want the blessing of that religion?

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Not all marriages are Christian. Marriages, technically, can be affiliated with any religion or none at all. Also, there are many queer (and straight) Christians who see nothing wrong with being gay. Personally, I am an atheist, but if I were to believe in a god, he would not send people to hell for such a pointless reason as being gay (really, he wouldn't send anyone to hell, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make). Not all Christians follow the Bible to the letter.

Mymla said:

And why should the state even have the right to tell the christian church (or any religion really) that they should marry homosexuals? State and church are supposed to be separate, meaning that neiter should influence the other. If they want to have their bigoted beliefs, let them. But you can't tell them what to believe or do. That's being just as intolerant as they are towards gay people.

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This is like saying that restaurants have the right to deny black people their services because restaurants don't deserve to have influence over the law. (Read: American segregation. Long story short, it was very, very bad and dumb.) While the latter may be true, that doesn't necessarily imply the former. Any organization does not have the right to deny their services to any group of people. They can have bigoted beliefs (or else where would you draw the line with what's considered bigoted?), but nobody should be allowed to preach hate. This is why people look down upon bullying et al.

Mymla said:

Civil union is, in my opinion, perfectly fine, as long as it gives the same legal benefits as marriage. And if you want to have a fancy ceremony with cake and rings and what not, it's not like you can't just have a pastafarian wedding or something.

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Okay, this is just dumb. "Separate is never equal." (This, again, refers to American segregation. Bad, bad, bad thing.) The separation of something even so simple as a name implies that "gays aren't good enough for /marriage/." Remember that whole social equality concept and how it's different from legal equality? This is an example of that.