On OHKOs

Making OHKOs less broken probably sounds like a joke but hear me out:

• They should fail if the target has more than 30% health left
• They should gain 2% accuracy for each point the target's health falls below 30%
• They should be worded as doing damage equal to the target's remaining health, the distinction being that their energy cost will be half that

So, like, if your target has 30% health left, and you decide to go for broke and use Fissure three times, you have a 65.7% chance of knocking it out by the end of the round, but also a 34.3% chance of wasting 45% energy for nothing.

If your target has 20% health left, and you use Fissure once, you have a fifty-fifty chance of knocking it out, which is probably about as viable as just attacking it a few more times.

This sounds at the same time more useable, and a lot less infurating to get slammed by.

(The accuracy thing resembles their variable accuracy in the games — their in-game accuracy is 30% plus the user's level minus the target's level, and they fail if the target is a higher level than the user.)

if we just allow their accuracy to be boosted by accuracy boosts like everything else, they can be 50% set damage equal to damage cap with a zoom lens. as I've mentioned, damage caps are set to be reached in two actions under normal conditions, so that alone ought to be fine.

I don't follow, but yeah I forgot to mention that OHKOs' accuracy shouldn't be affected by accuracy boosts; they aren't in the games, either.

contrary to popular belief, ohko moves are not broken when the damage cap applies.

they do not need restrictions.

they need to be improved so that they are actually viable.

allowing accuracy boosts to apply normally is a simple way to boost it into just about the right range for it to be viable.

... Ok, I will grant that it's not impossible to make use of OHKOs the way they are. We don't need to change them, nor do we need to change anything. The current method sure does... function, I guess.

But being the status quo shouldn't be worth anything. The only reason OHKOs are the way they are is that fifteen-year-old Negrek wrote them that way, and then never came up with anything better. The word of fifteen-year-old Negrek is not infallible.

Let's pretend OHKOs don't have effects yet. Would you seriously argue that making them these absurd all-or-nothing gambits is the best way to write them?

Isn't that exactly what they are, though? all-or nothing gambits?

I'd say the effect I proposed keeps the spirit of being all-or-nothing gambits. They don't need to literally be a coin toss to determine which Pokémon wins.

With the damage cap, though, they don't determine the match. OHKOs are horribly inefficient action- and energy-wise. Basically what res said, if you want OHKOs to actually be used, you'd have to improve them, because they're pretty bad as they stand right now.

... Are you agreeing with res or me?

... oh, you ninjaedited before I posted

I'm agreeing that if there is to be a change, it should make it so OHKO's aren't basically a coin toss as to which Pokemon wins. But I agree with res' way of solving it, because your proposed change in the first post kind of just limits the usage of OHKO's even more.

Zhorken said:

But being the status quo shouldn't be worth anything.

Click to expand...

status quo means that experienced refs have have a body of precedent where our intuition applies well to draw on. this allows the league to function more smoothly. in the absence of a compelling case (e.g. obvious errors, it turns out that someone actually took splash description seriously &c.), please do not change things at will.

it is clear that we fundamentally disagree on this point though

Zhorken said:

The only reason OHKOs are the way they are is that fifteen-year-old Negrek wrote them that way, and then never came up with anything better. The word of fifteen-year-old Negrek is not infallible.

Let's pretend OHKOs don't have effects yet. Would you seriously argue that making them these absurd all-or-nothing gambits is the best way to write them?

Click to expand...

I would not argue that it is the best way but I would certainly argue that it is not wrong.

all-or-nothing is the point of an OHKO. even as written, if you OHKO x3, in the average case that is hitting 90% of the damage cap. obviously this is a poor estimate because there is the cap, but like

I don't understand why you feel that this is problematic

I can elaborate on why this is fine if you want

Zhorken said:

I'd say the effect I proposed keeps the spirit of being all-or-nothing gambits. They don't need to literally be a coin toss to determine which Pokémon wins.

Click to expand...

they already are not. damage cap applies.

To say it in a less res manner, the point is that they're not a coin toss to see if the pokemon wins. They determine if you hit the damage cap, and hitting the damage cap in one action isn't actually that extreme since normally it only takes 2-3 actions to hit the cap anyway if you know what you're doing. So a random chance of doing that is just fine, because it'll roughly even out to being the same as attacking for 2-3 actions.

People generally ban OHKOs just because everyone else does, but OHKOs feel more powerful than they actually would be in battle. People don't actually like relying on chance to do the same amount of damage they could do in a more reliable manner, and [damage_cap * 0.3] (as it is now) is currently how you can regard the average damage done by using an OHKO. If you can hit the damage cap in 1-3 actions with 100% accuracy, OHKOs even out to being worse. Therefore, not overpowered.

I personally am okay with not allowing you to raise accuracy except for perfect-accuracy-type moves and allowing OHKOs to remain worse; there's no need to make them perfectly viable. But that's still more usable than your suggestion because the application is more universal, and in your outlined situation there isn't generally much point in using OHKOs anyway.

You'd have to disallow moves like Lock-On and Mind Reader being used in conjunction with OHKOs.

That means two actions to hit the damage cap, which is generally within range of what's normal unless your damage cap is unusually high (but that's what you've indicated you're okay with taking in a round...). And it's hard to spam against a competent opponent because they'll find ways around that the first time you show them they have to think about it. If they can't find a way around that, you probably could have done a pretty hefty amount of damage within the same round anyway.

Other than no guard machop line and articuno (who is not available in the league), how many can do that anyway?

I'd favour a full ban.

- Takes no skill
- If you get lucky, that's a free Pokemon in your favour
- Sucks out much of the excitement from the battle

By "a free Pokemon" are you referring to the pokemon fainting in one move? That's not what OHKOs do here. OHKOs are affected by the damage cap just like other damage is, so they usually inflict something like 20-40% damage if you get lucky. You can do the same amount of damage in a round if you take advantage of powerful attacks, STAB, and/or weaknesses.

If you still don't like them, you can ban moves in any individual battle, so you can play entirely without ever being concerned about OHKOs. Just make sure to add it in whenever you make a challenge.

I like the no accuracy boosting for OHKOs just cause it's unique, and fits with the games, idk that speaks to me in a neat way especially since moves like lock-on still work so it's not an actual problem.

Otherwise I see no reason to change OHKOs, it hasn't been a problem in the past so.