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  #121  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

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Originally Posted by Claydol girl View Post
... How are they not metal? Also, I never said "SIRENIA ARE GOOD." I would never use the word "are" after a band name. ;)
both are perfectly acceptable grammatically.

how are they metal? because they have distorted guitars and wear fishnet stockings? to me it's just another version of Evanescence, except now the guitars sound louder!


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I hate to break it to you, but I enjoy female vocalists in music. This reflects through my recommendations. Nobody's forcing you to even acknowledge them ?_?

(also, you are implying that male vocalists are somehow superior?)
I like chick vocals, just, this is a thread about metal and I'd rather people remind metal and good metal and not shit overdone "female-fronted" "metal" bands. Let's keep it to the real metal, shall we?

were it a general rec thread I'd have let you off the hook though

also there's a difference between the metal you're talking about and say Arch Enemy, Doro, etc
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  #122  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

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Originally Posted by Watershed View Post
both are perfectly acceptable grammatically.

how are they metal? because they have distorted guitars and wear fishnet stockings? to me it's just another version of Evanescence, except now the guitars sound louder!
Your definition of "metal" is quite twisted. By definition, any genre must follow a number of artistic conventions, such as (in the case of metal) amplified distortion (check), extended guitar solos (check), emphatic beats (check), overall loudness (check). You don't get to make your own definition of something that's already been established, thanks.

And I do consider Evanescence metal.

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I like chick vocals, just, this is a thread about metal and I'd rather people remind metal and good metal and not shit overdone "female-fronted" "metal" bands. Let's keep it to the real metal, shall we?
hahahahahaha what
since when is your definition of "good metal" the same as everyone else's

I'm all for looking at music objectively but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. The music I'm recommending fits the definition of metal quite well.

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were it a general rec thread I'd have let you off the hook though
Gee glad to know you would have let me off the hook

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also there's a difference between the metal you're talking about and say Arch Enemy, Doro, etc
Yes, those bands are on the heavier side of the spectrum while mine are on the other end. Once again, I'm all for looking at music objectively but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
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  #123  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

what the fuck metal doesn't need solos have you ever heard Neurosis and friends

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Your definition of "metal" is quite twisted. By definition, any genre must follow a number of artistic conventions, such as (in the case of metal) amplified distortion (check), extended guitar solos (check), emphatic beats (check), overall loudness (check). You don't get to make your own definition of something that's already been established, thanks.
Actually, metal goes a LOT further than just these overall characteristics. Metal goes back to the fucking tritone, the use of the power chord, and is actually rooted in blues. If you wanna argue the theory, yeah, Sirenia use power chords. Yes, there are drums that you can consider remotely metal. But punk uses power chords: are punk bands metal? fuck no.

Metalcore maybe? Fuck no.

Nu-metal? fuck no.

All of these bands clearly fit your characteristics. See, there's the flaw in your argument. I don't consider that shit metal. It takes more than playing power chords and knowing what a pentatonic scale is to be metal. By your definition, everything from Linkin Park to Coheed and Cambria to Trivium to As I Lay Dying are metal, and I don't consider these bands metal at all. Having power chords and distortion does NOT make you fucken metal. Else Shakira is metal, and jesus, you wanna argue that?

I'm not talking quality here, even. I like Coheed for example, and you know I like stuff outside of metal. But I gotta draw a fucking line, and though there's something to be said for the chick cumdumpster (God, I love GD terminology) goth bands to be metal, there's also something to be said for "metal descended from Black Sabbath". Then bands suddenly started SHOO-RUKING their dicks off and fucking around with synth orchestration and tuning down to Z flat and you know... I gotta draw a fucking line here. I really have to.

Just because you're using some superficial media-approved metal characteristics, it doesn't make you fucking metal.

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hahahahahaha what
since when is your definition of "good metal" the same as everyone else's
I consider image a part of metal as well. And fuck me, Sirenia's image is not metal. It's Hot Topic poser goth. I'm better than that, and I hope you are too.

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I'm all for looking at music objectively but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. The music I'm recommending fits the definition of metal quite well.
To use another person's words: "I should like this shit, but I got some limits". I can think of a better definition. And yes, it involves penises and vaginas.

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Yes, those bands are on the heavier side of the spectrum while mine are on the other end. Once again, I'm all for looking at music objectively but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
Doro is not REMOTELY on the heavy end of the spectrum. Doro was in Warlock and she's been around since the 80s. Man, fuck, she's like, what, 40? 50? That skank's been around forever. Only she plays real metal.
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  #124  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

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I consider image a part of metal as well.
Your post was really good and convincing until I read this. So if Sirenia changes their image, they'll be metal?
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  #125  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

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Originally Posted by Claydol girl View Post
Your post was really good and convincing until I read this. So if Sirenia changes their image, they'll be metal?
Depends if they do a full on makeover and play convincing metal. Considering it's Sirenia, doubt they can pull over a cloak. I mean, Sirenia suddenly riding motorcycles and drinking beer and shit, you think they can do that? I don't think so? I just think it'd be the same shitty old car with a new paint job. Image is projected by integrity. And protected by integrity. If Sirenia suddenly started doing that, you could make a case for them being metal; but even then you could ask whether they're doing that because they want to pander to a different crowd (and therefore sell to other people), or because they actually genuinely want to play that music. And I, I don't think they do or they can. They want to make heavy pop music. Same thing Tarja did in Nightwish, which is why she is gone now. Nightwish had to preserve their honesty. Whether Anette is to everyone's tastes is something else, and I don't think Anette sounds all that metal (and Nightwish are semi-metal musically anyway). But the other band members are clearly rooted in metal, in some very good metal as well; Tuomas claims the 3rd and the Mortal and Tiamat and such as influences, so, you know... And from what I gather, Anette is a VERY genuine personality. Image is being GENUINE about what you like. I think I should have worded it differently. I like metal bands that are genuine. Maybe this explains it better?

Look being metal is a sort of feeling as well. It's playing the music, but it's also the culture, the lifestyle, you know, there's a whole different level to it. Sirenia fit in that little sub niche where the "gothic" subgenre (but they sound nothing like Gothic music, whence another debate...) I mean, this is nothing or other. This just drifts somewhere between trying to write catchy rock melodies and trying to be dark so you can sell to a part of the population that totally kicks on things that are "dark" and "gothic" and "spooky". It just hits a vacuum between trying to be heavy, trying to be melodic, and trying to be ambient and atmospheric. I guess you could say in all these bands there is a "metal influence", and then you'd probably be right. But you can't you know consider Sirenia metal unless they actually live the whole thing out.

I know in some cases the borderlines get really fucking tedious. Rammstein for example, they have this problem too: clearly there is a huge Metallica and Pantera influence there, but are they metal? I don't know, there's a KMFDM and such influence as well. Are they industrial? They don't stick to a lot of particular conventions of that genre either. So what are they? In Rammstein's case, I'm tempted to say they're metal because I think in their sound and in their image and in the way they project themselves to their audience, they are pretty metal and they are very authentic. But you can of course argue the other side of the equation.

Well stuff like Sirenia has the same problem. I'm a bit bored of the hype over all these kinds of bands, so I'm tempted to take shots at every single one of them every once in a while just because I can because it's getting annoying to see every sixteen year old kid wearing a fucking Within Temptation or Tristania or whatever fucking band shirt when you know, they probably don't know who Carcass are, or Bathory, or Celtic Frost, or Watchtower. I really have to draw lines because even though I am not that old or anything (I wish I'd been there in the 80s to hear Anthrax or Slayer) but you know, the scene is so much more than these hyped "metal" bands when real metal as it originated sounds nothing like those modern female fronted metal bands at all. I know metal has split and branched and for some bands in the genre, I mean, say, Draconian, I can think that in their case you could say there is a case they are actually metal (the Opeth and My Dying Bride influences are huge).

In this case, the genre Sirenia would be closest to (doom metal, really, although just playing heavy metal slower does not make you doom metal; Sirenia don't sound like Candlemass), I mean, doom metal bands are still different from what Sirenia does. I don't like the term gothic metal a lot, though I understand why people use it; it's a mix of gothic music and metal, but since when do Sirenia sound like a cross between Bauhaus and any metal band (which metal band anyway? Iron Maiden? Metallica? Candlemass? Solitude Aeternus?). No. They don't. They sound like a cross between pop music and metal music, and I can see the appeal in that: catchy melodies and it's still heavy in a way; but don't confuse the two.

Seriously, Retsu, I respect the fact you like female vocalists in metal and I know where you're going with this, and actually, I don't hold a grudge against chick vocalists at all like some metalhead elitists do, but I do agree with them that I have to draw some genre lines, and that of course that the genre lines are by no means a 100% guarantee for what I enjoy musically.
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Last edited by Tarvos; 02-07-2009 at 06:13 PM.
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  #126  
Old 02-07-2009, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

So what is Sirenia if not metal?
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  #127  
Old 02-07-2009, 06:19 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

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Originally Posted by Claydol girl View Post
So what is Sirenia if not metal?
I made an edit, I hope that explains it better for you. It's a wall of text now though :*

In short, I think Sirenia are close to what you could call pop metal (doubt that is a genre). It's a bit hard to get a general term for all these kinds of bands, so people slot them under metal and people slot them under rock and people slot them wherever but I generally just go with they're basically rock bands with bonus distortion. I don't know really. I guess you *could* peg them as metal but I really think we should make up some umbrella term for these kind of bands that hover on the borderline.

You know, to me, it's falling between the ship and the quay. It's the grey genre-defining area. Sirenia are in the middle.
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  #128  
Old 02-07-2009, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

I agree with altmer as long as he's only referring to the newest albums, because the extremely mainstream radio songs such as My Mind's Eye sound ABSOLUTELY CAPS-LOCK NOTHING like any of the ones from previous albums that is what I associate 'Sirenia' with. So I'm a bit confused as to agree or not with you, but since the whole discussion was based off The 13th Floor I'm guessing I'd be agreeing.
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  #129  
Old 02-07-2009, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

yeah afaik the earlier stuff was better
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  #130  
Old 02-08-2009, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

It was, I'm pretty sure Lethargica, Meridian, A Shadow Of Your Own Self and Sister Nightfall make up some of the best (Norwegian) goth in existence. Although not like that's a particularly prolific genre.
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  #131  
Old 02-08-2009, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

For me, At Sixes and Sevens > The 13th Floor > Nine Destinies and a Downfall > An Elixir for Existence.

Tristania, Trail of Tears, and Theatre of Tragedy are all waaaaay ahead of Sirenia though.
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  #132  
Old 02-09-2009, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: I'm vaguely interested in metal but I don't really know where to start

THE THIRD AND THE FUCKING MORTAL

JESUS

(continue discussion)
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