The Cave of Dragonflies forums

Go Back   The Cave of Dragonflies forums > Games > Anime-Style Battling > ASB Meta

Notices

View Poll Results: y/n/q (q is not actually an option, sorry)
y 11 100.00%
n 0 0%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-17-2015, 09:36 PM
Eifie's Avatar
Eifie Eifie is offline
oh man, good times.
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Posts: 2,625
Pronoun: She
Eifie is an unknown quantity at this point
Default On Evolution Costs

So, in light of experience requirements being skewed on the high side in general, we've been discussing implementing a system with evolution requirements based on rarity instead of evolution levels in the games. With this system, all Pokémon within a rarity bracket would require the same amount of exp to evolve. Basing requirements on rarities is possibly more in line with how difficult it should actually be to evolve a certain species in ASB. Very few Pokémon, if any, should end up with higher exp requirements under this scale. A rough scale is as follows (you can check the full rarity lists on the buy Pokémon page):

one
example Pokémon: Rattata, Pidgey, Hoppip, Shinx
two stages: 2 exp
three stages: 2 exp -> 5 exp

two
example Pokémon: Slowpoke, Lotad, Venipede, Flabébé
two stages: 3 exp
three stages: 2 exp -> 6 exp

three, four, five
example Pokémon: most of them
two stages: 3 exp
three stages: 3 exp -> 6 exp

six
Yanma, Snover: 3 exp
Golett, Bergmite: 3/4 exp

seven
Lickitung, Tangela, Aipom: 3 exp
Noibat: 4 exp
Dratini, Larvitar, Bagon, Gible, Axew, Deino, Goomy: 4 exp -> 9 exp (unchanged)

eight
starters: 2 exp -> 6 exp (unchanged)
Eevee: 4 exp (unchanged)
fossils: 3/4 exp
Beldum: why are you here. go to rarity seven.
Zorua: 3 exp

Also, a few Pokémon may need to be shifted between rarities: Axew and Trapinch should likely be in the same rarity bracket (also Trapinch's evolution experience is really weird right now), though whether they should be grouped with the pseudo-legends is debatable. Beldum should probably be in rarity seven with the pseudo-legends. Zorua might be worth bumping down to rarity seven or something.

Also also, we've discussed lowering happiness evolution requirements to 3 happiness for baby Pokémon, i.e. basically every happiness evolution except Golbat, Chansey, Eevee, Buneary, Woobat, and Swadloon.

Feel free to mention more Pokémon that you think might benefit from being moved between rarities, or special cases that've been missed in the scale above, and of course your general thoughts about the idea!
__________________


"idk, I'm bad at puns" -Keldeo, inexorable pundit of puns and wordplay

Last edited by Eifie; 05-17-2015 at 10:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-17-2015, 09:47 PM
JackPK's Avatar
JackPK JackPK is offline
blame telegram
 
Join Date: June 23, 2008
Location: Texas
Age: 25
Posts: 1,617
Pronoun: He
JackPK is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

pssst Riolu is a baby pokemon since it can't breed
__________________
avatar is from here

if you feel like it, click on my GPX+ party below! :3


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-17-2015, 09:49 PM
Meowth's Avatar
Meowth Meowth is offline
but is a sheep entering.
 
Join Date: November 17, 2011
Location: something witty
Age: 25
Posts: 633
Pronoun: He
Meowth is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

Quote:
Also also, we've discussed lowering happiness evolution requirements to 3 happiness for baby Pokémon, i.e. basically every happiness evolution except Golbat, Chansey, Eevee, Buneary, Riolu, Woobat, and Swadloon.
Riolu is a baby Pokémon.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-17-2015, 10:21 PM
Eifie's Avatar
Eifie Eifie is offline
oh man, good times.
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Posts: 2,625
Pronoun: She
Eifie is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

Oh jeez, okay. I always thought Riolu was just special like Buneary.
__________________



Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-17-2015, 10:35 PM
Mimikyu Mimikyu is offline
Butterfree
 
Join Date: July 27, 2010
Posts: 2,458
Pronoun: any
Mimikyu is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

I've always found it a bit weird that Gothita, Solosis, and Vanillite are all rarity 3, but all have the exp requirements of 4 exp -> 9 exp. It pretty much gives them the same exp requirements as the rarity 7 pseudo-legendaries, so maybe their exp requirements should be decreased a bit?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-17-2015, 10:38 PM
pathos's Avatar
pathos pathos is offline
doot doot
 
Join Date: July 4, 2010
Age: 18
Posts: 2,539
Pronoun: It/Him
pathos is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

Well, that's what this rarity tier would do. It would make their exp requirements, being in rarity 3, 3 > 6 exp.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-17-2015, 10:41 PM
Meowth's Avatar
Meowth Meowth is offline
but is a sheep entering.
 
Join Date: November 17, 2011
Location: something witty
Age: 25
Posts: 633
Pronoun: He
Meowth is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mawile View Post
I've always found it a bit weird that Gothita, Solosis, and Vanillite are all rarity 3, but all have the exp requirements of 4 exp -> 9 exp. It pretty much gives them the same exp requirements as the rarity 7 pseudo-legendaries, so maybe their exp requirements should be decreased a bit?
Most Gen V Pokémon's exp requirements for evolution are kinda gross in ASB because they evolve at such obscenely high levels for whatever reason. Presumably they'd all slot into the new rarity divisions and be more in line with Pokémon from other gens.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-18-2015, 12:24 AM
Meursault Meursault is offline
I am the man who arranges the blocks.
 
Join Date: June 23, 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Age: 23
Posts: 2,033
Pronoun: they/her/hers
Meursault is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution

#freeslowbro

this is all i have to say. literally all i care about on this topic is slowking not being obscenely easier to obtain than slowbro despite being practically identical.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-18-2015, 12:42 AM
Byrus's Avatar
Byrus Byrus is offline
Strange days ahead
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Ireland
Age: 26
Posts: 1,518
Pronoun: He
Byrus is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via Skype™ to Byrus
Default Re: On Evolution

Slowbro has a mega evolution, though. So it'll presumably have an advantage when megas are implemented. Item/trade evolutions are just easy by default, really.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-18-2015, 01:49 AM
Superbird's Avatar
Superbird Superbird is offline
Fire emblem is great
 
Join Date: December 28, 2008
Location: North Carolina
Age: 20
Posts: 4,678
Pronoun: He
Superbird is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via Skype™ to Superbird
Default Re: On Evolution

stealing my thread title >:(

I support this. I would like to not have to get a full 5 exp for my rufflet to evolve, that would be nice
__________________
Visit my art website - Monitors of Modern Art! Updates weekly.

For those in ASB Battles that I happen to be reffing, I have several habits that deviate from most other refs. These can be found in this document, and involve mostly stat modifications and status conditions, as well as other clarifications regarding the specifics of certain attacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokémon Showdown VGC
[20:47:57] +Superbird: quick someone what's the integral of tan(x)
[20:48:07] +Tomsta17: 857
[20:48:08] @dingram: -lncosx
[20:48:12] +Superbird: wrong
[20:48:16] +Superbird: -lncosx + c
Superbird was muted by dingram for 7 minutes.
[20:48:20] +Tomsta17: ya
[20:48:23] +Squidero: rekt imo
Superbird was unmuted by dingram.
[20:48:28] +Squidero: unrekt imo
[20:48:28] +Destinylife: Aww
[20:48:32] +Superbird: lol
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-18-2015, 02:00 AM
Eifie's Avatar
Eifie Eifie is offline
oh man, good times.
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Posts: 2,625
Pronoun: She
Eifie is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbird View Post
stealing my thread title >:(
what'chu talkin bout >:(
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-23-2015, 01:17 AM
Eifie's Avatar
Eifie Eifie is offline
oh man, good times.
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Posts: 2,625
Pronoun: She
Eifie is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

Okay, uh, this is kind of a big thing, so it'd be nice to get more opinions here. I've put up a handly poll for everyone who doesn't want to post for whatever reason — it's totally anonymous, too, so vote whatever you think! You don't have to post reasons if you don't want to. If you're against this, please please vote as such in the poll so that we know.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-23-2015, 02:25 AM
Kratos Aurion's Avatar
Kratos AurionMOD Kratos Aurion is offline
beep beep coming through
 
Join Date: June 23, 2008
Location: chaos muppet
Age: 28
Posts: 4,443
Pronoun: Any
Kratos Aurion is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

The rarities were originally based on catch rates, just fyi. Beldum's catch rate is 3 as opposed to the other pseudo-legends' 45, and so presumably that's why it was made rarer. I don't have a problem with shuffling things around, though. I guess catch rate is the closest thing canon has to a "rarity" that you can apply to all pokémon across generations, but to me it always seemed a little arbitrary to use it here.

Just a general, devil's advocate question: why do we need different evolution tiers/costs/whatever at all? Other ASBs get by just fine with a flat experience requirement set for first stage > second stage, and another flat requirement set for first > second > third. Many of them don't bother differentiating item/happiness evolutions at all, either (...or use items in general, I suppose, but no reason we couldn't have items just for their held effects without needing to involve them in evolution).

For example, is there some reason that noibat should require more experience to evolve than any other two-stage line? In some cases you could make an argument for some pokémon having wider movepools than others, but noivern's movepool is pretty shallow, honestly. Furret has more options than it does, and yet it's not only cheaper to purchase its basic stage but costs half as much experience to obtain. Eevee also requires four exp, but it's pretty hamstrung compared to other, more versatile normal-types, and its evos, while fun and popular, are not exactly as replete with options as other pokémon, either.

In fact, most of the proposed tiers are awfully close together anyway! The majority of two-stage evolutions as listed in the OP require 3 experience... so why not just have them all require 3 experience? Why not have all three-stage evos go 2 > 6, or just 3 > 6 so that all evolution stages period require the same 3 exp? What meaningful reason is there to have some require more effort than others? Heck, why should slowking be so much easier to get than slowbro? Require it to have the same 3 experience, and either run all three battles with the king's rock, or just the last one, or any one out of three, or something like that!

The only reason I can think of to have different sets of requirements is to simulate the fact that pokémon evolve at different levels in-game, and while that extra bit of consistency is nice it's also largely irrelevant to how pokémon are balanced in ASB. Rarity or "pseudo-pseudo-legend" status or what have you don't really seem like they should be relevant, either. Like, is haxorus even actually that good? Is flygon? Or are they only special because they're traditionally popular or because they're powerful/useful in the canon games?

I'm fine with the proposed changes and won't complain if they're implemented—they are definitely an improvement!—but I was thinking about another ASB I used to be active in and was reminded of this, so I figured I'd toss it out there in case anyone either preferred it or it got them thinking about any other ideas.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-23-2015, 04:01 AM
Eifie's Avatar
Eifie Eifie is offline
oh man, good times.
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Posts: 2,625
Pronoun: She
Eifie is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

Thanks for posting such an in-depth opinion! I can't quote properly on my phone, but I don't feel like waiting until morning to post, so, apologies.

I believe (since I wasn't the one who originally proposed the rarity-based system) that the idea of basing costs on rarity is so that there's something to work for that money can't buy, but at the same time doesn't give older players even more of an advantage in the game just by virtue of having been around longer. Like, my Espeon sucks and I may never use her in battle, but every time I see her on my profile I am just so irrationally proud of the years of effort and waiting that got me this awesome collection of pixels. The higher rarity Pokémon mostly happen to be things that are generally liked and pretty cool or whatever while not necessarily being any better at ASB, so if you want some cool achievement to work on maybe you could go for buying a Larvesta or something and evolving it, and you'll get that shiny trinket for your profile for your efforts.

The scale in the first post is meant to make it so that the majority of Pokémon need 3 exp to get to their second stage and 6 for the third, but I kind of like having a bit of variety with the requirements just because... well, it just feels more fun, I guess. Maybe I'm the only one that feels that way?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-23-2015, 04:42 PM
Meowth's Avatar
Meowth Meowth is offline
but is a sheep entering.
 
Join Date: November 17, 2011
Location: something witty
Age: 25
Posts: 633
Pronoun: He
Meowth is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

You're definitely not! I really can't think of a single reasonable reason to disagree with Kratos' point but it just feels nice to have certain Pokémon you have to work extra hard to gain enough arbitrary points to turn into a different Pokémon. I'm sure it's a pain in the arse to some, but.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-23-2015, 04:49 PM
Lord of the Fireflies's Avatar
Lord of the Fireflies Lord of the Fireflies is offline
Back in black.
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 2,222
Pronoun: He
Lord of the Fireflies is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

A little variety is always cool. 9 exp. is close to pushing it in my opinion, but if people like it this way, who am I to judge
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-23-2015, 05:00 PM
Eifie's Avatar
Eifie Eifie is offline
oh man, good times.
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Posts: 2,625
Pronoun: She
Eifie is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of the Fireflies View Post
A little variety is always cool. 9 exp. is close to pushing it in my opinion, but if people like it this way, who am I to judge
What do you think an appropriate amount for pseudo-legends would be? (Again, their pseudo-legend status isn't really relevant to how good they are in ASB, but they're generally cool and rare and stuff so they're good candidates for high exp. requirements.) Maybe 4 -> 7?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-23-2015, 05:30 PM
Meowth's Avatar
Meowth Meowth is offline
but is a sheep entering.
 
Join Date: November 17, 2011
Location: something witty
Age: 25
Posts: 633
Pronoun: He
Meowth is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

4 -> 7 sounds reasonable. Anything above 8 is pushing it, I think.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-23-2015, 05:39 PM
Meursault Meursault is offline
I am the man who arranges the blocks.
 
Join Date: June 23, 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Age: 23
Posts: 2,033
Pronoun: they/her/hers
Meursault is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

Ehhh I dunno here, I think 4->9 is perfectly fine, considering the changes to Lucky Egg and the fact that battles are proceeding quicker than they used to. I like the idea of certain exp evolutions being something that requires work put into them.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-24-2015, 01:00 AM
Rosegold's Avatar
Rosegold Rosegold is offline
the user formerly known as lilycolo
 
Join Date: October 7, 2014
Location: the internet
Posts: 358
Pronoun: she
Rosegold is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: On Evolution Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eifie View Post
What do you think an appropriate amount for pseudo-legends would be? (Again, their pseudo-legend status isn't really relevant to how good they are in ASB, but they're generally cool and rare and stuff so they're good candidates for high exp. requirements.) Maybe 4 -> 7?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meursault View Post
Ehhh I dunno here, I think 4->9 is perfectly fine, considering the changes to Lucky Egg and the fact that battles are proceeding quicker than they used to. I like the idea of certain exp evolutions being something that requires work put into them.
9, personally, feels a bit high. What if we split the difference and go 4->8?
__________________




Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Pokémon, Pikachu and all other Pokémon characters © Nintendo, Game Freak and Creatures Inc. The Cave of Dragonflies, content, styles, etc. © Butterfree/Dragonfree/antialiasis.
Forum now hosted by Eevee's HQ.