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  #61  
Old 02-07-2015, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

Eh, screw it, double-posting.

Has it been observed that if you Chill while Resting, you pretty much get restored to full health for free, and that that's neither fun nor balanced, and probably either the mechanics of chilling or resting should change?

I'd like it if you can't Chill while asleep, confused, or paralysed. 'If you'd hurt yourself in confusion, Chill instead' is generally accepted as a valid command, and while 'If you'd hurt yourself in confusion, do nothing' is useful for balancing confusion and keeping it from being the arbiter of a battle, 10% energy is a lot of energy to be able to get as a bonus for losing an action you couldn't have done anything with anyway. That is most of the way to throwing another Hyper Beam, or enough to heal 20% HP.
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  #62  
Old 02-07-2015, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

To be honest -- while 5% recovery has always seemed stingy, time and again while reffing I've noticed that 10% energy on each Chill can be a pretty damned good boost. I mean, in any case there's always the fact that Chills can be partially or entirely disrupted, which is a vulnerability, although the latter requires the opponent to strategize ahead and the former depends on a kind of referee fiat that isn't always dealt down.

Myself in any case I seldom let "if you'd hit yourself in confusion do this" conditionals pass because it's literally impossible for the Pokémon to tell all things considered. And also, Chilling is a move like any other, and it's supposed to be fallible -- you should never get to Chill, at least not fully, when you wouldn't have been able to take action (which the specific exception of Sleep, where it was permitted as a flavor sense kind of thing and actually isn't so bad when considering that basically the only other options are Sleep Talk and nothing, although there should most likely be penalties to the amount restored anyway, specially for Rest sleep).

Nerfing direct recovery doesn't seem like a bad idea either. I suppose we can keep just Rest as healing a greater amount, since it has the added penalty of self-inflicted sleep, and it might even be a good idea to have Chilling fail in that particular kind of sleep.
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  #63  
Old 02-07-2015, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

I can't imagine letting "if you'd hurt yourself in your confusion" slide as a valid conditional, when the Pokemon is hurting itself as a result of attempting to carry out a conditional. Also I wouldn't allow Chilling during sleep, personally, but maybe that's just me
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  #64  
Old 02-07-2015, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

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Originally Posted by Metallica Fanboy View Post
Nerfing direct recovery doesn't seem like a bad idea either. I suppose we can keep just Rest as healing a greater amount, since it has the added penalty of self-inflicted sleep, and it might even be a good idea to have Chilling fail in that particular kind of sleep.
Having Chill be possible during Rest doesn't really make sense even. "Hey, could you like relax a bit while you're already relaxing pretty freakin hard?"
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  #65  
Old 02-07-2015, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

I've already given my opinions on re/charge stuff elsewhere but yeah, that should be changed. I'd say chill is fine as it is and the two-turn moves are what need modification though.

If you rest ~ chill ~ chill you're still losing two actions. That's the primary cost, rather than the energy. And energy-wise it's only free for up to 40% healing, which is the same as the other recovery moves. In rest, you have very few choices for the next two actions and your healing happens over time, so at 40% healing any other direct recovery move is better unless you really need to get rid of statuses. Rest is, flavour-wise, different from sleep, but the mechanics of the other things you can do during it are the same (sleep talk, snore) so chill doesn't need an exception. Anyway, practically everything learns rest, so it balances itself because if you bring rest into the battle you've made it 108x as likely that your opponent is suddenly considering it too.

I allow chilling during sleep because it weakens sleep as a status, and it makes sense flavour-wise. Otherwise I think it's fine to make it so that if actions are going to fail, you can't conditionally chill in its place. Chilling especially doesn't need to be nerfed under normal conditions though - you're still losing an action, and turning hyper beam into a true two-action move to nullify the energy cost is pretty reasonable.

I ban direct healing because it's a pain in the ass to have battles drag on, more than balance stuff. I'm more likely to ref battles that ban or limit direct healing because this is just as true when you're a ref. That's not going to be much less true at 30% healing than 50% because the concern is that it could happen multiple times.
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  #66  
Old 02-07-2015, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

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Originally Posted by allitersonance View Post
I ban direct healing because it's a pain in the ass to have battles drag on, more than balance stuff. I'm more likely to ref battles that ban or limit direct healing because this is just as true when you're a ref. That's not going to be much less true at 30% healing than 50% because the concern is that it could happen multiple times.
I'd argue that if it's a pain in the ass, it is a balance issue. If it takes a non-trivial amount of time to either damage the pokemon back to where they were or to force the pokemon to energy KO, especially given that a lot of battles have damage caps of 30% or 40%, then it probably needs to be nerfed so that recovery is merely a component of stalling, rather than a way to stall all on its own. Yes, Rest ~ Chill ~ Chill means you lose three actions, but in those three actions, you can very easily have restored beyond the damage cap and get enough energy back to either immediately do it again or to at least make it a hell of a lot longer and repetitive. You can potentially Uproar to keep them from sleeping, but that has a limited learnset and as you say, it's more likely to make your opponent consider Resting. Which does not lend itself towards entertaining battles.
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  #67  
Old 02-07-2015, 11:36 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

Different note; double-posting again because ... yeah.

Can moon stones be changed to also work on Fairy moves? It's a little silly that it doesn't help either of the moves with Moon in their names. Having them not work on Normal moves would suck for skitty, though, and Fairy damaging moves are kind of rare, so I'd rather it not get changed to be Fairy-only.
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  #68  
Old 02-08-2015, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

That'd be fair and workable, sure.

It could also split the benfits, like, one type gets the damage boost and another gets the energy bonus. I'd have the former on Fairy moves and the latter on Normal ones.
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  #69  
Old 02-08-2015, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

Quote:
Originally Posted by surskitty View Post
I'd argue that if it's a pain in the ass, it is a balance issue. If it takes a non-trivial amount of time to either damage the pokemon back to where they were or to force the pokemon to energy KO, especially given that a lot of battles have damage caps of 30% or 40%, then it probably needs to be nerfed so that recovery is merely a component of stalling, rather than a way to stall all on its own. Yes, Rest ~ Chill ~ Chill means you lose three actions, but in those three actions, you can very easily have restored beyond the damage cap and get enough energy back to either immediately do it again or to at least make it a hell of a lot longer and repetitive. You can potentially Uproar to keep them from sleeping, but that has a limited learnset and as you say, it's more likely to make your opponent consider Resting. Which does not lend itself towards entertaining battles.
I agree. Perhaps someone should make a separate thread for proposals about balancing recovery? I would go ahead and do it, but I worry that'd be overstepping as someone who isn't league staff these days.
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Old 02-08-2015, 01:35 AM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

I'll go ahead and make it, but for future reference, anyone can make a thread in the ASB Meta forum.

ETA: I'll also go ahead and make one for the discussion on Chills.
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  #71  
Old 02-08-2015, 01:47 AM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

Quote:
Originally Posted by surskitty View Post
Can moon stones be changed to also work on Fairy moves? It's a little silly that it doesn't help either of the moves with Moon in their names. Having them not work on Normal moves would suck for skitty, though, and Fairy damaging moves are kind of rare, so I'd rather it not get changed to be Fairy-only.
I dunno, all the stones only boost one type and having Moon Stone work with two is. Well, it's supported flavour-wise, but flavour is ultimately not what we base decisions on, and I think consistency and simplicity is more important. So I'd be inclined to have Moon Stone stay the way it is.
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  #72  
Old 02-08-2015, 02:11 AM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

If you lower healing to 30%, it'd kinda be a cheaper healing, due to the lower energy costs. So it could technically make battles go on even longer.
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  #73  
Old 02-08-2015, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

Hey, uh, the Dread Plate's item description refers to Ghost type moves, when it should be Dark type moves.
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  #74  
Old 02-08-2015, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

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Hey, uh, the Dread Plate's item description refers to Ghost type moves, when it should be Dark type moves.
Fixed, thanks~
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  #75  
Old 02-08-2015, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazheirio889 View Post
I dunno, all the stones only boost one type and having Moon Stone work with two is. Well, it's supported flavour-wise, but flavour is ultimately not what we base decisions on, and I think consistency and simplicity is more important. So I'd be inclined to have Moon Stone stay the way it is.
I would like to point out that not only are Moonblast and Moonlight Fairy moves, but there's currently no item that raises the power of Fairy-type moves.

I do like MF's idea to make Moon Stones work on Fairy damage and Normal energy.
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  #76  
Old 02-08-2015, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

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Originally Posted by surskitty View Post
I would like to point out that not only are Moonblast and Moonlight Fairy moves, but there's currently no item that raises the power of Fairy-type moves.

I do like MF's idea to make Moon Stones work on Fairy damage and Normal energy.
Isn't Pixie Plate a thing?
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  #77  
Old 02-08-2015, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

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Isn't Pixie Plate a thing?
Lowers the energy of Fairy-type moves and makes Hidden Power Fairy-type.
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  #78  
Old 02-08-2015, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

Now that it's mentioned, I wouldn't mind if we made up a Poison Barb analogue for Fairy moves, too...

I mean, the fact that there is none in the games frustrates me profoundly. Hell, Pink Bow from Gen II is right there with the perfect excuse to be rehashed as something new but slightly different.
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  #79  
Old 02-08-2015, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

I mentioned to Zhorken a while ago that Polkadot Bow might be better, since the only way to get Polkadot Bows in Gen II was to trade over a Jigglypuff, which is now Fairy.
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Old 02-08-2015, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion Box

Teeny weeny pink polkadot bowkini?
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