2011 London Riots

[Tarvos]

London's been besieged with riots and people looting stores all over the place. Some people like the one who wrote this Telegraph article believe it's just youth reacting to their shit socioeconomical climate.

While poverty and crime are strongly related, no doubt - these weren't the works of poverty-stricken students. These were chavs looting for plasma TV's and trainers. These are the products of a shit consumerist society where we have been taught to want everything - and if we aren't policed, we won't buy it. This is scum doing what scum do.

Disgusting.

 

[Saith]

Boy, I sure do love my police state.

 

[Dannichu]

London's been besieged with riots and people looting stores all over the place. Some people like the one who wrote this Telegraph article believe it's just youth reacting to their shit socioeconomical climate.

While poverty and crime are strongly related, no doubt - these weren't the works of poverty-stricken students. These were chavs looting for plasma TV's and trainers. These are the products of a shit consumerist society where we have been taught to want everything - and if we aren't policed, we won't buy it. This is scum doing what scum do.

Disgusting.

I don't understand. You say that bleeding-heart liberals are defending the scum by saying it's a reaction to the society in which they've been brought up, and then claim yourself that the consumerist society is at least partially to blame for what's going on.

This makes me feel a little better.
And this.
And this!
This
This
This

And hundreds more. Obviously the riots are a bad thing, and I majorly hope that the complicated underlying causes get fully examined in the coming months, but it's really bringing out the best in a lot of people.

 

[Tarvos]

It's because I'm not a commie. These people who rioted were scum. I don't think looting is an excuse if what you're looting is luxury goods. If they were poor and looting food, I could get into that.

But this is just people brought up with zero boundaries.

 

[Dannichu]

Here's a map of the London riots superimposed on a map showing the deprivation index. Almost all the riots happened in the poorest areas of London, where cuts have been made, youth centres have been closed, unemployment is sky-high and schools are poor. I'm not defending the people who've been out looting, but labelling everybody scum isn't going to help anything.

 

[Tarvos]

I know the areas. But they are not that poor. This is mindless violence with no ideology behind it and they're like I said, not looting for food or money.

They're looting for the luxury goods the consumerist society tells them to have. They think they're entitled to such a thing and if they aren't given it then they'll smash the place up to get it - and the police are standing back.

Yes, sure, there is a time and place to realise these are shithole areas of London, but they didn't do this because they are frustrated about not having a job. Because if they did, they wouldn't be sitting at home playing tons of xBox and having no boundaries because the parents did not raise them properly. I am sorry, but this is respectless behaviour towards anyone.

Poverty is a real problem, I agree with you, but these riots, despite what the left wing will claim, are not about poverty. They're instead about failed education (which is everywhere) and spending cuts on social youth programmes. We don't solve this with money. We solve it by teaching these chavs respect, teaching them to get a job and teaching them that to be a part of society you must put in your share of the work, just like everyone else does. And that is just a question of raising with moral conscience.

Which clearly hasn't been done.

 

[Saith]

It's because I'm not a commie. These people who rioted were scum. I don't think looting is an excuse if what you're looting is luxury goods. If they were poor and looting food, I could get into that.

But this is just people brought up with zero boundaries.

Yeah, totally. You know, those people during Hurricane Katrina? The obese ones? Oh, they were totally faking it! Look at how fat they were!

Look mate, this has been coming for such a long long time. When an entire section of society is shat upon constantly and consistently, it's entirely understandable for them to lash back.

It starts with fears and suspicions. 'The government doesn't care', 'we, the poor, don't matter', 'the rich have all the power' and 'the police are merely a tool to oppress us'. These are all things that most people who suffer them don't vocalize. Maybe they aren't willing to or maybe they simply can't.
But then, when say, an innocent man is shot to death by the police during a protest, all these fears are suddenly realised, all these suspicions are brought bubbling to the surface.
No one there is choosing to riot. The very thought that you can choose to riot is incredibly condescending. It's an uncontrollable act of rage, and in a situation like this, where the country had it coming for such a long time, since Thatcher really, it's not going to stop. Sure, there'll be repression, depression and/or oppression, but it's shown the poor, working-class youth just how much power we wield. Suddenly, we can do something. We've been brought up, hell, even trained to believe that we're worthless, that we'll never amount to anything, that we have no purpose and that we're basically born as criminals. We've been trained to believe that we have no power at all, and now we've seen this? Now we'eve done this?

There really is no going back. Britain has to either become even more fascist, or embrace the 'revolution'.


I realise I sound like I'm supporting/condoning the riots, which I'm not. However, I feel for them, and I feel the same frustration, and I believe that if this anger was directed somewhere useful - at the state, for example, rather than the neighbours - it'd inevitably be an act of good.

 

[goldenquagsire]

with all due respect Tavros, you're a foreigner. you don't understand what the situation really is like in this country. successive governments, both Tory and Labour, have undermined the employment prospects for milions of people. not through immigration policies, which just meant that jobs that nobody wanted to do were being filled up, but through the wholesale pillage of our industry on the pretext of modernisation (funny how Germany with its world-leading economy has significant industry even into the 21st century). now the UK is reliant on some bullshit 'knowledge economy', which got us stuck into this recession.

there's so much anger and discontent in the UK at the moment. to blame these riots on Xboxes is just ignorant. sadly, I don't feel optimistic. unless the middle class turn on the coalition as well, I doubt anything will change.

as an aside, it's funny that phobia of the working class is the last acceptable prejudice. I'm sure the OP wouldn't dream of referring to the Brixton rioters of 1981 as niggers or the Stonewall rioters as poofs.

 

[Tailsy]

I think if someone says 'Britain', 'the UK', or uses the Union Jack in a graphic one more time I am going to start tearing into people's flesh. The riots haven't crossed the borders. Shut up and use the correct terminology.

Either way, while I sympathise with the original sentiment of the riots I sincerely doubt that stealing electronics is going to end in anything remotely approaching change. I also really can't stand the ridiculous calling for reinstating the National Service or shooting all the rioters in the eye or whatever it is people think will solve their problems.

 

[Valerunner]

I think if someone says 'Britain', 'the UK', or uses the Union Jack in a graphic one more time I am going to start tearing into people's flesh. The riots haven't crossed the borders. Shut up and use the correct terminology.

Exactly. Wales and Scotland have been peaceful during these riots. By the way, the riot vans lined up in the streets are Welsh. :)

Also, these are hoodlums cashing in on a troubled city. There's a protest that went wrong, so police focus on it. So they take to looting while the police are busy. Then other criminals in other cities think the riot-looting works, and copy it.

 

[Tarvos]

See my problem is not the rioting. My problem is that instead of rioting for a cause they are wantonly destroying without thinking. They don't feel aggrieved at their poverty. They just think they should always have what they want and if they aren't given it then they'll take it, with the police turning half a blind eye as well.

My problem is that if you're rioting and looting, for a cause, such as poverty, then don't steal iPads, steal food, steal clothing, steal medicine.

 

[Saith]

with the police turning half a blind eye as well.

What, hence the 16000 of them in London, now?
Look, the police can deal with peaceful protests, okay. They can bully the protesters, they can make them move on - that's what they're trained to do - but not every cop can handle a riot. This is why, when someone strikes back, it takes five of them in full riot gear to beat the shit out of a sixteen year old girl.

My problem is that if you're rioting and looting, for a cause, such as poverty, then don't steal iPads, steal food, steal clothing, steal medicine.

Why? In practice, they're exactly the same. They're still destroying businesses and hurting people.
They're not doing this out of necessity, of course they're not. However, what can they really... Do? They've gone through life with no say in anything - hell, a lot of them can't even vote, and now that they're older they're realizing that the governments have been raping the economy, making most of our employment in the Public Sector. Britain is basically one big office building, and well... The majority of the working class isn't suited for a job like this, while the police is being given so much power.
So now that this has come to the forefront, now that this is a known fact rather than an idle fear, the only way to protest is to, well, riot.

Also, I'm loving the vibe I'm getting here that 'the peasant rabble are too dumb to have opinions! Us educated people know what's best for them, hurrhum.'

I don't think it's comparable to, say, what occurred after Hurricane Katrina.

It is if you realize that this riot didn't just come out of the blue. I know the propaganda the BBC is spewing is basically 'COPYCAT COPYCAT YOB THUG RIOTS EVIL NASTY YOUNG-PEOPLE UNEDUCATED COPYCAT', and it's probably the most transparent I've seen them about their political agenda, but these riots didn't just happen. They've been brewing for years due to the socioeconomic problems that plague the working class.
'Course, by the reactions I'm seeing on Facebook, we're going to delve further into Fascism. What is it that Marx said about the Petit-Bourgeois?

Shut up and use the correct terminology.

But... It is correct. It's in the UK. That's because, uh, England is in the UK.

 

[Phantom]

Also not all police are trained to deal with riots. At least here. They have to go through special training.

 

[Saith]

the riots are taking place in the milky way galaxy. why is being imprecise important? :B

If something big happens in England, it effects all of Britain. These riots don't effect France or Italy or America or Libya or whatever, but they do (will) effect Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland. Therefore they (will) effect Britain, not just England.

Besides, are we really going to get into a fucking nationalism debate here? Seriously?

 

[Adriane]

I think it's more how the international media pretends England == the UK and the UK == England.

 

[Valerunner]

An interesting note: the British Turk communities in London are proudly defending their city, as well as the Sikh and other immigrant communities. Meanwhile the English Defense League threw stones at three black people on a bus, unrelated to the riots.

 

[Saith]

Meanwhile the English Defense League threw stones at three black people on a bus, unrelated to the riots.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that they were the only people tin-canned yesterday, there.

 

[Harlequin]

The situation is a really bad one and something needs to be done to address the underlying problems that actually caused the riots. I don't think that rioting is the answer to anyone's problems, but if it gets someone to actually listen and examine the legitimate problems that exist then at least it won't have been for nothing.

I don't think it's entirely fair to call all of the looters and rioters scum.

 

[Tailsy]

Yeah, echoing what Saith said about the riots being in England, which is in the UK and sort of affecting all of the UK. I know there's this whole deal with Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England being their own countries but I refer to it as the UK because it's the independent state that represents all of them.

It doesn't, actually. The UK is nicknamed 'The Divided Kingdom' for a reason - Scotland, Wales, and NI actually operate quite differently from England and we aren't a part of this shit whatsoever. Other than isolated incidents of people on the internet going 'LOL RIOT MORE', the top story in Scotland this week is 'it is raining a lot, sad face'.

I find it intensely irritating when people implicate my country in something it is certainly not a part of. We are not the same, and we really don't fall under one umbrella. It's not hard to say 'England' instead of 'the UK' or 'Britain'.

 

[Dannichu]

It is if you realize that this riot didn't just come out of the blue. I know the propaganda the BBC is spewing is basically 'COPYCAT COPYCAT YOB THUG RIOTS EVIL NASTY YOUNG-PEOPLE UNEDUCATED COPYCAT', and it's probably the most transparent I've seen them about their political agenda, but these riots didn't just happen. They've been brewing for years due to the socioeconomic problems that plague the working class.

Really? Most of the news I've seen comdemns the riots and talks in detail about how terrible and violent they are, but it's always mentioned that the underlying causes for such behaviour should be properly examined and aren't simple. One report I watched yesterday made Cameron's whole "if you're old enough to commit a crime, you're old enough to be punished for it" thing look silly (sillier) next to commentary saying that these people are disenfranchised and this is an inevitable result of years of deprivation that should have been seen coming miles off.