Voting USA 2012?

[Tarvos]

Why don't you just keep voting Lib Dems?

[goldenquagsire]

Originally Posted by Tarvos

Why don't you just keep voting Lib Dems?

they don't really represent my views tbh. :P

although really it depends on the individual candidate! if the Labour candidate standing for MP in my constituency is a known shit but the Lib Dem (or even, god forbid, a Green or independent) candidate is a better alternative then I'd go for them.

[Dannichu]

Originally Posted by goldenquagsire

I like to think that the Lib Dems did what they did for the greater good. They scarified their integrity and honour (and any chances of re-election) in order to mitigate as best as they could against the worst excesses of a Conservative government. For example, Lib Dems regularly cockblock Tory policies such as the new surveillance laws, and because they're members of a coalition government they can actually throw a spanner in the works, whereas if the Conservatives controlled a minority government then they could do willy nilly without any meaningful opposition.

Mmm, and in fairness, the LibDems did try the vote reform. Which failed (in no small part because the Tories and Labour threw their full weight into telling everyone that it would cost more money than has ever existed), but my family and I were watching coverage of the French election that's taking place at the moment and being envious of their system (which isn't perfect, but is much better than ours).

How socially conservative the UK Conservative party is at the moment is difficult to judge but kind of hilarious to watch. Cameron keeps trying to shake the Tories' image as 'the nasty party' by going on record with statements like "I don't support marriage equality in spite of being a conservative, I support marriage equality because I'm a conservative", and then two-thirds of Tory MPs freak the hell out.

[Tarvos]

The French have Le Pen though. I mean, next to Sarkozy.

[Dannichu]

Aah, Marine Le Pen. Slightly less mental than her father.
(she only wants to bring back capital punishment, rather than deny the Holocaust happened)

Still, I think their system is preferable to ours.

ETA (literally in the couple of hours that've passed between me posting this):

Originally Posted by Dannichu

the Tories wrecking the NHS after campaigning with promises like this just proves that they're the scumbags they've always been)

The scummiest scumbags.

[goldenquagsire]

Originally Posted by Dannichu

The scummiest scumbags.

okay that is just fucking ridiculous.

Andrew Lansley, [is] proposing that its staff be paid less if they work in poorer parts of the country.

Official documents reveal that the only exemption backed by the Department of Health would be for highly paid managers

The department, according to a submission to the NHS pay review body, believes special arrangements would be necessary for this new cohort of executives to "attract and retain high-calibre leaders and staff responsible for transforming delivery".

lansley can't be serious about this, he is actually just being a gigantic fucking troll. I really wish there was some way this was just a hoax. ;_;

[Tailsy]

Marine Le Pen might be a little cray cray, but you can't deny the the Front National had a hella catchy campaign tune.

tous tous ensemble avec marine le pen!!

[Sunflower]

Originally Posted by ...

The thing is, Obama is not a good choice. He's the lesser of the two evils. In presidential elections, I'd vote for him because I have no choice; any third party candidate I pick is going to lose, but I would not be happy about voting for him.

“Yes, Obama duped young people by not doing every single thing they want. So now, they’ll all vote Republican. It’s like when I want some bread, I won’t settle for half a loaf. Instead, I will have a muffin made of broken glass” - Stephen Colbert

One thing I'm really tired of is not-Americans criticizing Obama because he's not progressive by "European standards." That's because he literally can't be. The American political system is one with only two actual parties (third parties are guaranteed to lose, pretty much) and a very strong conservative base, especially since Reagan fucked everything up. And if you make any move too sudden the idiocy WILL boil over and we’ll be set back even further. The fact that even Obama’s relatively moderate campaign has pissed them off is proof of that. Obama can’t just say or do whatever he wants, because he's got to deal with a Congress that can and will blow off his attempts to move America out of the shithole it's stuck in.

Yeah, he's not perfect. Yeah, he's done a few things that weren't terribly great, but you know what? Considering America's batshit political climate he's accomplished a lot by being a long-term, pragmatic thinker and not just jumping in and trying to punch the conservatives in the face right off the bat. Against massive opposition he's slowly, but surely fixing the worst economic crisis this country has had since the Great Depression. He's been the first president who succeeded at even starting to fix our horribly fucked-up healthcare system (and we've been trying for over a hundred years). He got rid of DADT, declared DOMA unconstitutional and added a shit-ton of LGBT protections to both the US and NATO. He saved the US auto industry from tanking and, as well as other actions, saved hundreds of thousands of jobs. And you're seriously going to tell me he's a bad choice because oh no he's less than absolute perfection and made the occasional disappointing decision? The good faaaaaaar outweighs the bad here.

I'm also really fucking sick of Europeans lecturing Americans on issues of institutionalized racism but that's another story.

[Dannichu]

Originally Posted by Sunflower

“Yes, Obama duped young people by not doing every single thing they want. So now, they’ll all vote Republican. It’s like when I want some bread, I won’t settle for half a loaf. Instead, I will have a muffin made of broken glass” - Stephen Colbert

One thing I'm really tired of is not-Americans criticizing Obama because he's not progressive by "European standards." That's because he literally can't be. The American political system is one with only two actual parties (third parties are guaranteed to lose, pretty much) and a very strong conservative base, especially since Reagan fucked everything up. And if you make any move too sudden the idiocy WILL boil over and we’ll be set back even further. The fact that even Obama’s relatively moderate campaign has pissed them off is proof of that. Obama can’t just say or do whatever he wants, because he's got to deal with a Congress that can and will blow off his attempts to move America out of the shithole it's stuck in.

Yeah, he's not perfect. Yeah, he's done a few things that weren't terribly great, but you know what? Considering America's batshit political climate he's accomplished a lot by being a long-term, pragmatic thinker and not just jumping in and trying to punch the conservatives in the face right off the bat. Against massive opposition he's slowly, but surely fixing the worst economic crisis this country has had since the Great Depression. He's been the first president who succeeded at even starting to fix our horribly fucked-up healthcare system (and we've been trying for over a hundred years). He got rid of DADT, declared DOMA unconstitutional and added a shit-ton of LGBT protections to both the US and NATO. He saved the US auto industry from tanking and, as well as other actions, saved hundreds of thousands of jobs. And you're seriously going to tell me he's a bad choice because oh no he's less than absolute perfection and made the occasional disappointing decision? The good faaaaaaar outweighs the bad here.

I'm also really fucking sick of Europeans lecturing Americans on issues of institutionalized racism but that's another story.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I think Europeans should really be allowed to criticise some of the things American politicians do when it affects them - nobody in Europe wanted the war in Iraq, the European politicians that dragged their countries into it did so because America asked them to. The world isn't a collection of independent countries, and what happens in one affects what happens elsewhere. Lots of people in the UK and nearly everyone in mainland Europe has been watching the recent French election, not because they want to be up-to-date on world affairs, but because what happens in France affects what happens in Europe and the Eurozone, and what happens there will certianly affect the UK and further-reaching places.

Please note that at the moment, very few people are pointing at Britain's politicians and saying what shining beacons of progressiveness, joy or intelligence they are.

Perhaps I've watched too much West Wing, but I don't think it's a bad thing to constantly demand perfection from politicains, least of all the most powerful man in the world. Yes, he's done an awful lot of good things, but I hope he didn't become president so everyone would congratulate him. If nothing else, you've got to admire the far-right for their sticking to their goals - they want no abortions under any circumstances, only abstenance in schools, they don't want gays to have any legal rights at all - whereas liberals are more happy to say "Well, DADT got repealed and Obama's basically filled his LGBT-rights quota now, so we'll leave him alone about gay marriage and gay adoption and trans* rights and...". He's done a lot of good things, but if you elected him, you should definitely demand more.

(and I think my little rant there is the first time a European's done anything resembling criticising Obama in the whole thread, though I could be wrong)

[hopeandjoy]

But Dannichu, he can't do those things. Forget about begin elected again, he would never be able to pass the necessary legislation because the Rebuplicans control Congress. He currently can't do jack shit, even if he didn't care about the media and elections.

[opaltiger]

Originally Posted by hopeandjoy

But Dannichu, he can't do those things. Forget about begin elected again, he would never be able to pass the necessary legislation because the Rebuplicans control Congress. He currently can't do jack shit, even if he didn't care about the media and elections.

That doesn't mean liberals shouldn't stop pushing Obama. Maybe then come the next elections he will be able to do something. And even now, there's a symbolic value in, say, the (Democrat-controlled) Senate passing a bill, even if it gets voted down in the House.

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Originally Posted by Sunflower

*snip*

I think Danni and opal have made perfectly eloquent points against what you're saying, so I think I'll just round it off by pointing out that the person you're quoting is Cuban and lives in Florida.

[Tarvos]

Obama is the best president the US have had in a long time. I think the only one that was equally good that I can remember (and even he did some stupid things) was Bill Clinton.

But that said, if Obama was a candidate in my country, I still wouldn't vote for him. Anything overly right-leaning is a no in my book. But there's a world of difference between ideologically disagreeing with someone and judging the results of a president's tenure - and on the whole Obama is just a whole, whole lot better than Bush is. I consider Obama a pretty good, sane, rational president and I'm much more comfortable with the US with him in charge than I am with Bush, even though I still disagree on a myriad of issues.

But the thing is, the political system in the US just needs an overhaul. It's outdated and doesn't allow large minority groups to express their real desires and tries too hard to condense them into two main things. Plurality has its own problems of course (see: Dutch elections) but it would allow for a better and fairer playground.

By the way, just because Obama's tenure on the whole is satisfactory doesn't mean there's no room to criticise him and still want better. You should always demand perfection. Demanding perfection is how you achieve better results.

[Dannichu]

Originally Posted by Tarvos

I consider Obama a pretty good, sane, rational president and I'm much more comfortable with the US with him in charge than I am with Bush, even though I still disagree on a myriad of issues.

I remember the day Bush was elected despite not having any idea who he was before then; I got home from primary school to find my dad listening to the radio with the gravest face I'd ever seen him wear. I asked what was up and he said "the most powerful man on earth is a madman".

[Dragoon]

Originally Posted by hopeandjoy

But Dannichu, he can't do those things. Forget about begin elected again, he would never be able to pass the necessary legislation because the Rebuplicans control Congress. He currently can't do jack shit, even if he didn't care about the media and elections.

As soon as he proposes a bill to help people, the Republicans and Media practically scream "COMMUNISM!" and immediately the bill loses favor.

Also, a fun fact: Republicans, due to their constant crusade against womens rights to birth control, lost a major percentage of female voters. Huzzah, I say!

[Polymetric Sesquialtera]

anyone heard of the amendment one debacle in north carolina?

seeing as how I live here, seeing as how you can't drive down the street without seeing signs saying "vote against amendment one", seeing as how two of my best friends own said signs - it's a very big deal

[goldenquagsire]

Originally Posted by Dannichu

I remember the day Bush was elected despite not having any idea who he was before then; I got home from primary school to find my dad listening to the radio with the gravest face I'd ever seen him wear. I asked what was up and he said "the most powerful man on earth is a madman".

i dont like this attitude


pretened that george bush and the republicans are mad. that just deligitimatises them as targets. make people tink their mad. then they're not as threatening...

now think they're rational actors. bush acts in his own intetrests. isn't that far, far more worrying. people who have convinced themselves that their actions are right. that is far more scary than just a madman.

al quiadia is more scary when hes a human enemy with rational motives and with a extreme way of achieving these objectives. not when hes a rich guy who wants more money and knows how to get it,

[goldenquagsire]

also remember. bush had a debree from yale. he aint stupid. bro knows what hes doing. reducing his intelligence makes him stronger. like gandalf!

[Tarvos]

Bush *is* mad, and if we can get it into people's heads that he is, we should be able to grotesquely ignore anything he does and never vote for the cunt again.

The GOP is full of blithering senile ancient conservative dummies. That should be understood.

[onthetable]

Originally Posted by Teh Ebil Snorlax

I think Danni and opal have made perfectly eloquent points against what you're saying, so I think I'll just round it off by pointing out that the person you're quoting is Cuban and lives in Florida.

I'm not quite sure how this is relevant. .-. Are you talking about their point about Europeans talking about the US?