banlist discussion

[1. Luftballon]

felt there was a need.

my proposed changes: strike = remove, bold = include.

2009 Banned Pokémon List
Approved by Kratos Aurion and Mudkip the HC.

Mew
Mewtwo
Wobbuffet
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Latias
Latios
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Deoxys (All formes)
Garchomp*
Dialga
Palkia
Special Rotom Forms (Cut, Wash, Heat, Fan, Frost)*
Manaphy
Giratina
Origin Giratina*
Sky Shaymin*
Regigigas (2-vs-2)*
Darkrai
Arceus
anything that's can't normally be brought on wi-fi.

Special Restricions: Pokémon with Platinum Version-exclusive moves (see the announcement for more information)*

*indicates newly banned Pokémon

These Pokémon have been removed from ban: Wynaut

If you would like to inquire as to why a Pokémon is banned or no longer banned, please feel free to do so.​

the special forms can't be brought on wifi anyway, and platinum's been out for a while now.

and, since this is discussion thread, yeah. might liven up this forum.

 

[Espeon]

Please do not make threads about forum revamp without permission of the league heads.

 

[Phoenixsong]

Ordinarily I'd agree, to a point, but this does need to be done and it would probably be helpful to get member input anyway. Might as well go ahead and use the thread to discuss it since it's already here, yanno?

As for the Platinum restrictions, yeah, that should've been removed. I thought I edited the post when I made the announcement saying they were allowed on English release, but I guess I overlooked it.

 

[Espeon]

Apologies Kratos, and to you too sreservoir. I'm still learning.
Well, now that this thread is here, we may as well use it. Can I ask that if you want to add or remove something to or from the ban list, we could justify why?

I think we should possibly assess the rotom formes separately? Most people would agree that Fan Rotom is less useful and powerful than Heat Rotom simply due to the difference between the signature moves Air Slash and Overheat.

 

[1. Luftballon]

the rotoms are due to inability to be brought on wifi; otherwise, rotom-a is basically a staple of OU.

and no apology necessary.

 

[Phoenixsong]

I don't have a problem with your current suggestions, as it's largely just clean-up work anyway. I would, however, like to take this time to ask if anyone has any other suggestions, corrections, objections, etc., or if the current list is enough as-is.

 

[Michi]

I think Garchomp being reintroduced would be an okay idea. Now that Garchomp has been removed, Smogon wants to try to move Salamence to Ubers. But both of them are easily beaten! I don't think there was much of a reason for Garchomp's move - Ice types can counter it easily, and Dragons fare well against it. I myself IV bred and EV trained a Garchomp the never beat any Weavile, and I have many pokemon with Ice moves that have never lost to a Garchomp.
I vote for Garchomp's removal from the list.

 

[Espeon]

Yeah but Garchomp can rip through teams if you have no dedicated counter plus, it's really not worth having a dedicated counter for it if you're trying to have a functional team which is abusing some weather set.

Also, if it has brightpowder in sandstorm, it's exceptionally hard to hit, even with a dedicated counter.

 

[1. Luftballon]

it was, iirc, specifically a yache berry swords dance set that was problematic, destroying just about anything not named skarmory or bronzong, and frying those with fire blast.

scarf glaceon is one of the best counters you'll find to it, with OHKO ice beam through yache, iirc, but it's not exactly popular outside of hail teams. and it requires you to come into swords dance or a physical attack, and fails against dragon dance sets if stealth rocks are up.

 

[Phoenixsong]

We considered banning only yache garchomp at first but decided that that was too difficult to police accurately.

The one thing about garchomp and other similar suspect/"uber" pokémon is that I really don't think they're as widely used over here as they are on say, Smogon. That's not to say that they aren't dangerous as all hell when used correctly, but I think the fact that this is a slightly more casual environment and that it focuses more on simpler Wi-Fi stuff than on a highly competitive Shoddy ladder, etc., means that you just don't see as many of the overused-overused things. A single really good pokémon or variant isn't very likely to overcentralize anything simply because people here prefer a greater variety of options (especially in the Crystal stuff) and it's not like everyone is going to use yachechomp given the opportunity. Some people, sure, but not everyone.

All that to say that, if no one objects, I don't have a problem with unbanning garchomp for the time being. If it turns out that it does cause trouble we can always adjust later.

 

[Michi]

That's all true, sreservoir and Espeon, but many teams now are running Weavile, Gyarados, or Starmie. All three can easily take out a Garchomp - Weavile's Ice Punch is garunteed to OHKO even a max Defense Garchomp if it isn't holding a Yache Berry, assuming the Weavile holds the standard Choice Band or Life Orb; Gyarados runs a powerful Ice Fang that also 2HKO's a max Defense Garchomp, even with o held item, while Gyarados can generally survive an attack and finish the Garchomp off quickly; and Starmie runs a great Ice Beam that 2HKO's even high Defense Garchomps. Even other pokemon capable of learning Ice type moves can OHKO it, like Gengar with Ice Beam or a Dusknoir running Ice Punch. Salamence can outrun any Garchomp without max Speed, and both other Dragon Pseudos can kill it if they live through an attack. Metagross and Tyranitar don't sweep it as quickly, but can beat it on occasion.

The only real obstacles one may face in a fight with Garchomp is the BrightPowder you mentioned, especially if said Garchomp also has Substitute, and Yache Berry. However, anything that uses Cloud Nine or changes the weather to Rain, Sunny Day, or Hail, effectively destroys the BrightPowder Garchomp. In any case, there are relatively few Garchomp making use of BrightPowder because many depend on Life Orb or a Choice item to boost attack enough for a sweep. The same is the case with the Yache Berry set, though it did gain popularity. Simple tricks like Theif or Knock Off are useful against any Garchomp or even any sweeper, because they all need their items to live up to their full potential. Commonly overlooked is the fact that there are two Dragons who carry Dragon attacks that can deal with Garchomp in two hits, sometimes one, if does not carry an Ice type attack, or if they can outspeed it.

On top of that, Garchomp does't handle attacks well. It as a decent HP stat, though it's almost never maxed out on any sets, but it has mediocre defensive stats. Any tank or physical wall can really dent it, if not kill it, especially if the Garchomp lacks a super effective, physical move.

Any Garchomp set can be easily countered, outpredicted, or even just stalled.

I'm just saying this to point out that it can easily be defeated by any prepared team, whether specifically designed against it or by total accident.
If it does end up causing too much of a problem, then by all means ban it. I would love, though, to see it come back. It is a challenging pokemon to face, but it isn't actually as godly as it's cracked up to be, in my opinion, aside from the Yache Garchomp - that is, admittedly, significantly harder to deal with and usually forms huge holes in teams, and sweeps those that are completely unprepared.

 

[1. Luftballon]

and the problem arises when garchomp runs yache. that said, I'd love to see garchomp unbanned. yache berry isn't much of a problem when you can run multiple ice moves anyway.

 

[Michi]

Agreed, sreservoir - I don't know how I managed to ignore the fact that you can easily murder it if you survive a single attack, assuming you have more Ice attacks than just Ice Shard.
That attack is, really, an epic fail in some cases. Weavile and some similar pokemon already outspeed most pokemon in their tiers, and have other good Ice moves.
I actually used YacheChomp before I got competitive - I used it in the Battle Tower by accident, I just thought Yache Berry would work well with Garchomp. :P

 

[1. Luftballon]

in battle tower, where stealth rock use isn't rampant, focus sash is probably better, actually, unless you're running into item clause. ice shard is not really an epic fail, though. it's great for revenge killing a scizor after a weak hp fire or something, actually.

 

[Michi]

That's true - I mostly run into problems with Ice Shard if I'm up against Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite. I always forget that there's an Ice Punch right below it on the screen, and that the other pokemon isn't fast enough to hit first. I have, a few times, managed to finish off a Scizor with Ice Shard.

 

[1. Luftballon]

speaking of scizor... I feel scizor overcentralizes the metagame. it makes me feel that any team I use that isn't liberally sprinkled with fire-type moves is inadequate. and occas swords dance scizor is probably every bit as dangerous as garchomp, with the Same Great Base Attack, and almost-equal defenses, with a less-common weakness to boot. its lower speed is offset by its access to both bullet punch and quick attack, and its ability to use agility if it wants to waste a moveslot.

(maybe it's just that I have too many ice-types on my teams.)

 

[Michi]

I find that Dusknoir can defeat Scizor if used correctly, thanks to Fire Punch, and Infernape (common on many teams, though I hate it) eliminates Scizor with Flare Blitz or Fire Punch. Scizor is a powerful threat, though, but I don't think it will be a massive problem if YacheChomp is cleared (not that many people will use it), because a YacheChomp with Fire Blast is just another Scizor counter added to the list. Magnezone can defeat it on occasion too, but very rarely because Bullet Punch smashes Magnezone.
Overall, it was definitely my strongest pokemon on my best competitive teams, but it's not enough of a threat to be banned or to even worry about if you include Infernape, Garchomp (assuming it is unbanned), or another pokemon with a decent Fire move.

 

[Bluberry Bat]

A 'Counter' is described as a Pokémon that can -safely- switch into what it's meant to.. well, counter. Weavile cannot switch into anything except a Swords Dance and since anyone in their right minds is going to run 'Chomp without a Yache if they plan on using Swords Dance, it has no OHKO against it meaning it becomes a moot point. Gyarados can switch into an Earthquake, but its Ice Fang with only 65 BP and lack of STAB will fail to OHKO a standard Chomp even lacking Yache if unboosted, It then falls to Stone Edge. (And no, miss-hax cannot be factored in. Besides this, without any Dragon Dances up as is assumed in a 'counter' switch in, Gyara will never be as fast as Chomp leaving it at its mercy.) Starmie is not common, and more often than not runs a bulky Recover set - however this cannot stand up to Chomp's power. And even if it runs a full offence set, it lacks the power to OHKO and will easily be quaked into oblivion.
Besides this, any reasonable player will switch Chomp out of any immediate danger and try to wear down any 'counters' you may have - and even if you catch it with its pants down with Yache it will be nearly guaranteed to require at -least- two 'counters' to take down. In addition even unboosted its defensive stats are outrageous for what its meant to do, it can survive most any hit without a problem. Calling it 'defensively weak' is honestly sounding more like a biased oversight. It cannot be stalled, as even the best, resistant walls get taken down by a reasonably boosted 'Chomp, and sitting in front of it with a Skarmory or similar is basically giving it time to set up a full +6. And predictability was never a problem here, everyone knows -what- its going to do, but when it's statistically impossible to reasonably handle this in 90% of situations is the problem spot. So this still means every team requires no less than two Ice-carrying liable counters, and that 'Chomp can essentially clock its worth at a 2:1 ration of Pokémon on a team. It's called over-centralising and it's why it's uber in the first place.
The reason Salamence is not as bad is 1: It doesn't have Swords Dance, meaning it will lack the pure power buff and needs more setup time. And 2: It has more solid, exploitable weaknesses from being slower and sporting a Rock weakness, as well as overall lower defences.

As for the ban list, I suggest leaving Skymin and Gira-O up there for posterity, it's perfectly possible to hack to allow the formes on wifi. The same goes for Rotom, in fact, but there's really no reason to have them a solid ban.

 

[Michi]

A Starmie with max Sp. Attack easily 2HKO's a max Sp. Defense Garchomp, and 3HKO's one with a Yache Berry. That said, I haven't ever seen a Garchomp with a max Sp. Defense stat. A Garchomp with average Sp. Defense is easily OHKO'd by a Starmie's Ice Beam, especially if IV's and EV's in Sp. Attack are higher.
Gyarados is slower than Garchomp, but it's Intimidate severely weakens Garchomps ability to KO it. Not that it isn't still easy for Garchomp, but Ice Fang on a Gyarados is still a good threat to any Garchomp. A Gyarados trained in attack 2HKO's the absolute sturdiest Garchomps, which hardly exist. Any other, it OHKO's or 2HKO's, and 3HKO's at worst with a Yache berry.
That all being said, yes those pokemon are likely to lose if the Garchomp has Yache Berry. However, not all Garchomps even have it. I'm willing to bet that half or less of them, before their ban from OU, actually had a Yache Berry - while it's extremely useful, Choice items and Life Orbs make Garchomp's moves seem to be on steroids. They are better on Garchomp when you want to sweep, because Yache BErry is only good once. Any other pokemon in the battle would be facing a Garchomp with no item.

 

[1. Luftballon]

skill link standard utility cloyster 2hkos with icicle spear, while requiring at least two +2 outrages or stone edges to kill, effectively a 3hko, with its lowest-def common set. scarf glaceon safely switches into +0 outrage, or, with minimal defense investment, +0 stone edge, outspeeds, and ohkos with ice beam through yache, unless garchomp has significant defensive investment, in which case either it won't be able to 2hko glaceon or will be horribly slow.

the cloyster is generally dead weight unless the enemy has a garchomp, but glaceon is dangerous to most things not resistant to ice or highly defensive.