Gender

[Eta Carinae]

You do realize most of what a person is is built when they're a child, right...?

Yes, I'm aware. And if kids are "built" differently, it can create conflict.

I could give you a dozen anecdotes about how kids deal better with this than adults. More than a dozen. It's just how life works; and mostly, if kids aren't accepting, they're following an adult's lead (one they respect). If there were no adults in a situation where a trans person were introduced, I have zero doubt the kid would be totally fine with them.

Yes, but we're referring to preschool children. How many preschool incidents have you experienced where a parent, guardian, or other adult presence hasn't become involved in some way? I agree with you, kids would most likely have no problem accepting them, but there would be no way to keep adults out of it.

Though, any of us blaming adults for this kind of thing is weak. Something infused into a brain through the entirety of one's childhood isn't easily abandoned :/

How is it any worse than not introducing it? Kids get bullied for the same shit now; at least with this program, someone's trying to stop that.

I suppose you're right there. As I said, I'm cisgender, so I'm not aware of what transgender people go through without programs like this.

 

[surskitty]

I suppose you're right there. As I said, I'm cisgendered, so I'm not aware of what transgendered (that might not be the right word, feel free to correct me) people go through without programs like this.

too tired to properly respond, but transgender is not a verb; don't add an -ed to the end

 

[Eta Carinae]

too tired to properly respond, but transgender is not a verb; don't add an -ed to the end

Thanks. Edited accordingly.

 

[mewtini]

Um... um... so let me try and figure out what the distinction between gender and sex is?

Gender is how a person feels about eirself, and isn't bound by female or male terminology?

And then sex is what they biologically are?

I feel really behind given that this post seems to ask such a simple question, but... I just hope this is properly placed.

Sorry if not.

 

[goldenquagsire]

Um... um... so let me try and figure out what the distinction between gender and sex is?

Gender is how a person feels about eirself, and isn't bound by female or male terminology?

And then sex is what they biologically are?

I feel really behind given that this post seems to ask such a simple question, but... I just hope this is properly placed.

Sorry if not.

You've pretty much got it. Gender is whatever you want it to be, sex is what's in your trousers. The possibilities of gender are endless, sex is pretty much limited to male, female or relatively rare cases of intersex individuals.

 

[Saith]

I'd just like to go back to pronouns (and maybe explain my own pronoun field?) because I didn't see it mentioned.
I don't like extra pronouns like sie and hir because, to me, it's just a method of othering. I realise that some people prefer them, and I'd respect that and use said pronouns, but to me it feels like, I don't know. Hey, so we cis people have our pronouns, now those chumps over there get to have these totally different ones just 'cause. Yay!
I don't really care whether people refer to me as male or female, but something about those other ones just get under my nails.
Anyway, sorry.

 

[Minish]

I'd just like to go back to pronouns (and maybe explain my own pronoun field?) because I didn't see it mentioned.
I don't like extra pronouns like sie and hir because, to me, it's just a method of othering. I realise that some people prefer them, and I'd respect that and use said pronouns, but to me it feels like, I don't know. Hey, so we cis people have our pronouns, now those chumps over there get to have these totally different ones just 'cause. Yay!
I don't really care whether people refer to me as male or female, but something about those other ones just get under my nails.
Anyway, sorry.

It's kind of odd that you feel that way, since it's only been cisgender people who have ever refused to use or recognise my pronouns! I'd like different ones because she/hers and he/his don't fit me rather than 'just 'cause'!

 

[Ether's Bane]

It's kind of odd that you feel that way, since it's only been cisgender people who have ever refused to use or recognise my pronouns! I'd like different ones because she/hers and he/his don't fit me rather than 'just 'cause'!

I think what he's trying to say is that:

1) He would use specific pronouns if other people request for them to be used, but...
2) if he were non-cisgender, he would not ask others to use a specific pronoun for him.

I agree with both, by the way.

On a sidenote, I was actually a tad nervous when typing this post. Cirrus, you may take that as a compliment, an insult, or anything in between. (That's what she said!)

 

[Minish]

I think what he's trying to say is that:

1) He would use specific pronouns if other people request for them to be used, but...
2) if he were non-cisgender, he would not ask others to use a specific pronoun for him.

I agree with both, by the way.

On a sidenote, I was actually a tad nervous when typing this post. Cirrus, you may take that as a compliment, an insult, or anything in between. (That's what she said!)

I'm sorry you felt that way! Really, I am completely surrounded in life by friends and family who don't understand my gender identity whatsoever, some who don't even try to respect it, so while maybe it doesn't get across, I do try to be understanding in this thread. :C Despite posts asking why I expect everyone to comply with me, I do not, and have never seen it take place in regards to my pronouns. Being denied them is really not new to me.

It might be that he wouldn't want to use them himself, but I don't really see how he can see it as okay to make statements like that about alternative pronouns as if we who want them used are unenlightened fools who just don't ~realise~ how othering they are. I just find it a lot more unpleasant being forced into binary pronouns which I don't feel comfortable with.

 

[Saith]

I think what he's trying to say is that:

1) He would use specific pronouns if other people request for them to be used, but...

Yup. That's what I said alright.

2) if he were non-cisgender, he would not ask others to use a specific pronoun for him.

I am transgender. :) I have a dick but I kinda wish I didn't.
And that's what I meant, yeah. Call me 'he' if you want, it's cool, I understand. It makes more sense to me than xie or hir or whatever. I just don't like them because they sort of box me out, you know? They segregate me from the rest of humanity and whatever the shit, like. I understand there're the genderqueer who don't fit into the binary, but I'm not one of them. I totally fit into the 'she' side of the binary. Except for the whole having a dick thing. Ideally I'd be a girl and that'd be it. In a perfect world, I'd be able to blend perfectly as a cis-chick and have no one any the wiser. Ah well! :)

 

[Hiikaru]

Yup. That's what I said alright.


I am transgender. :) I have a dick but I kinda wish I didn't.
And that's what I meant, yeah. Call me 'he' if you want, it's cool, I understand. It makes more sense to me than xie or hir or whatever. I just don't like them because they sort of box me out, you know? They segregate me from the rest of humanity and whatever the shit, like. I understand there're the genderqueer who don't fit into the binary, but I'm not one of them. I totally fit into the 'she' side of the binary. Except for the whole having a dick thing. Ideally I'd be a girl and that'd be it. In a perfect world, I'd be able to blend perfectly as a cis-chick and have no one any the wiser. Ah well! :)

Well, of course someone who wants to be a she shouldn't have to be called one of the alternate pronouns - that would be mean and othering! You're the same as any other girl if that's how you feel like you are, and no one should be allowed to put you in a group with people who identify as something other than a boy or a girl just because of that.

But do you really think it can possibly be othering to people who are honestly truly more comfortable with alternate pronouns? No one is putting them into a group and saying "here, you have to be this" - in fact, a lot of people would be happy just to shut them up and call them by binary pronouns. If you're not he or she, then being called one of those is just hard and feels weird or icky or wrong, and so it's not othering to be called something else. It's pretty much the opposite of othering, it's just letting them be who they are.

Alternate pronouns are not trying to oppress people who do identify with in the binary, they're just trying to make the world a more comfortable place for those who are not a he or a she. No one is saying that cisgender people need to be called them (why did someone even think so???) or that transgender people need to be called them! Or if someone is then it's a mean someone who needs to stop saying it.

It's understandable if you're worried you'd be stuffed into a "not-girl" box, since you don't want to be in that box, but alternate pronouns just aren't there for putting you in that box, and no one who uses alternate pronouns is going to try and force you to be called one as well. Someone might use a neutral one if they forget your preferred pronoun(s), but then you can just correct them and everything will be okay.

 

[Ether's Bane]

Just curious - do any of you honestly think that the non-cisgender people who prefer to use "he" or "she" rather than their own pronouns are actually hindering the chances of non-cisgender acceptance in mainstream society and the like? Because while I don't, I could see why some might think that.

 

[Hiikaru]

Just curious - do any of you honestly think that the non-cisgender people who prefer to use "he" or "she" rather than their own pronouns are actually hindering the chances of non-cisgender acceptance in mainstream society and the like? Because while I don't, I could see why some might think that.

No!

I mean, the more people who use alternate pronouns, the more people there are who have a reason to tell others about it - but if someone even knows about them to begin with, ey can raise awareness even if ey doesn't use an alternate pronoun for emself! But if someone doesn't raise awareness, that's not hindering acceptance, it's just not really assisting in particular. If you thought it was hindering not to use an alternate pronoun for yourself, you'd have to think every cis person who was happy with eir original set of pronouns was hindering acceptance just by being talked about sometimes.

But even if it did kind of hinder awareness, you can't force someone to use a pronoun ey's not happy with! You'd just have to try harder yourself!

 

[shy ♡]

Useful trans-etiquette 101.

 

[RosesBones]

Useful trans-etiquette 101.

This is incredibly useful, and affirms some things I had been thinking. Thank you so much for the link. :)

 

[Saith]

Useful trans-etiquette 101.

That's... Actually pretty good, yeah.

 

[Phantom]

...

*wonders why that wasn't posted a looong time ago*

 

[Minish]

I'm fairly sure it's what we've all been saying all along, just with a fancier layout...

 

[Phantom]

Yeah was just wondering why it wasn't posted in the first place... save the bandwith.

 

[ultraviolet]

presumably because Pathos only just came across it?? why else would it have not been posted