Homosexuality

[Music Dragon]

Why you gotta be a creep about it? You know the meaning of that passage and you're purposefully misconstruing it. Don't try to say that's not true, you're smart enough to type correctly.

It sure is a good thing we get to purposefully misconstrue Bible passages, though - take a look at the letter linked to above.

 

[Pwnemon]

God didn't necessarily put integration into our minds. While he knew it would happen, as he is a sovereign god, he gave us free will.

 

[Music Dragon]

God didn't necessarily put integration into our minds. While he knew it would happen, as he is a sovereign god, he gave us free will.

Free will is not logically compatible with God being almighty and knowing the consequences of everything, including His supposed creation of the world and of life. I could elaborate, but frankly, I've had to explain this so many times, it's not even fun any more. It's like fighting off an endless horde of zombies that just get up and shuffle clumsily towards you even after you've shot their heads off with a shotgun.

 

[Aisling]

Just because I'm somewhat annoyed that not only did you not seem to read anything else but you totally took Music Dragon's joke literally, I'm going to get all huffy at you and ask you some questions >:I

Do you believe that homosexuality is a bad thing and possibly also that homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else? You sound like it but as mildly annoyed as I am I don't want to jump to conclusions. And if you do think this, why the hell should anyone who doesn't believe in this god have to listen to him when he doesn't even do anything about that whole evil in the world thing with his infinite godlike powers (which, by the way, would make him something of a douche I would think)? I'm honestly curious what a Christian's answer to this is and you're conveniently right here and stuff.

And also there should be some kind of Theism thread because usually when one of you guys shows up, ignores the entire thread and says something dumb it goes in the direction I'm trying to take it right now (sorry guys). Things might actually heat up in there instead of the same old thing happening in this thread over and over.

 

[Pwnemon]

Just because I'm somewhat annoyed that not only did you not seem to read anything else but you totally took Music Dragon's joke literally, I'm going to get all huffy at you and ask you some questions >:I

Do you believe that homosexuality is a bad thing and possibly also that homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else? You sound like it but as mildly annoyed as I am I don't want to jump to conclusions. And if you do think this, why the hell should anyone who doesn't believe in this god have to listen to him when he doesn't even do anything about that whole evil in the world thing with his infinite godlike powers (which, by the way, would make him something of a douche I would think)? I'm honestly curious what a Christian's answer to this is and you're conveniently right here and stuff.

And also there should be some kind of Theism thread because usually when one of you guys shows up, ignores the entire thread and says something dumb it goes in the direction I'm trying to take it right now (sorry guys). Things might actually heat up in there instead of the same old thing happening in this thread over and over.

Firstly, of course it wouldn't be logically compatible. That would be the point of there being a God. If we could understand it, it wouldn't be very godlike anymore.

Secondly, God created the world with no evil. But since he gave humans free will, we screwed it up. It's sort like a teen rebelling against a parent and doing drugs. God let us do what we wanted since he loved us enough to give us free will, but we have to suffer the consequences. Or, if you prefer, it's like kids playing four square and God is the ace, except instead of being a jerk and changing the rules when it suits him he actually has to stick himself with the original ones he made.

Thirdly, homos can have the same rights as anyone else. But like I said earlier, this includes the right to screw up, and they will eventually have to suffer the consequences.

 

[Flora]

Secondly, God created the world with no evil. But since he gave humans free will, we screwed it up. It's sort like a teen rebelling against a parent and doing drugs. God let us do what we wanted since he loved us enough to give us free will, but we have to suffer the consequences.

Wow, you make it seem like we humans created evil. Do keep in mind that all forms of Christianity (and Judaism) agree that it technically was all Satan's fault. Granted, people do horrible stuff sometimes, but as I said, Christianity says that it's Satan trying to convince you to do evil.

Thirdly, homos can have the same rights as anyone else.

You seem to have a problem with homos having the right to marry.

 

[Saith]

Just gonna say that one interpretation of the Leviticus quote thingy is that, due to Judaism being sexist, being gay is considered an insult.

Basically, a man owns his wife, so if he shags a guy, he's insulting him. Because he's dominating his fellow Jew. So it's more of a 'being gay is bad because asserting your authority on a guy, so your treating him like a slave or a woman. This is bad because you should be nice to jews'.
Christianity ran with it.

It's sort like a teen rebelling against a parent and doing drugs. God let us do what we wanted since he loved us enough to give us free will, but we have to suffer the consequences.

Soooooooo God is like that chavvy mum in a tracksuit two sizes smaller than her, even if she wasn't pregnant again, arguing with the dad who's 'wigga'ing with his crew, over a cigarette, while their two year old boy with pierced ears is playing in the middle of the road?

Or, ummmm, if I lock my dog in my kitchen when I've been cooking Christmas dinner four six hours and then kick it when I'm shocked that it ruined the food?

Firstly, of course it wouldn't be logically compatible. That would be the point of there being a God. If we could understand it, it wouldn't be very godlike anymore.

That's retarded, by the way. God's incompatible with free will, therefore he must exist?
Seriously, logic isn't a 'thing'. It's a thought process. It's the action of validating or figuring out one concept using another proven concept.
A god couldn't defy logic, because

instead of being a jerk and changing the rules when it suits him he actually has to stick himself with the original ones he made.

I couldn't have put it better myself.
I would type more more, but I wasn't planning to type more than a line, and oh my god 'who's line is it anyway' is on Dave, awesome.

 

[Aisling]

Secondly, God created the world with no evil. But since he gave humans free will, we screwed it up. It's sort like a teen rebelling against a parent and doing drugs. God let us do what we wanted since he loved us enough to give us free will, but we have to suffer the consequences. Or, if you prefer, it's like kids playing four square and God is the ace, except instead of being a jerk and changing the rules when it suits him he actually has to stick himself with the original ones he made.

I was referring to the hundreds of children who are starving, practically born with AIDS, innocent children who are allowed to be raised by abusive and/or neglectful parents... Big businesses whose activities affect people who are entirely unrelated to them at all... Not just douchebags who get themselves hurt. Care to explain why he lets that go on, while still remaining something worth being worshipped? If I believed a god existed at all I sure wouldn't worship the one who allows children to starve and be beaten while having the capability to stop it.

But if you're just saying that the first humans who did evil brought evil into the world and fucked it up for everybody else and god can't intervene without taking away our free will or whatever... Why do you want to believe in something like that? Is it not horrible thinking you were born to face consequences for something you didn't even do? You don't have to believe that's true just because you grew up being told that, you know. Use that free will of yours.

 

[Saith]

To be fair, you can't choose to believe in something. You can choose to act on a belief, but you can't decide whether to actually believe or not.
I guess religion is kinda like sexuality, in that sense~

 

[Aisling]

To be fair, you can't choose to believe in something. You can choose to act on a belief, but you can't decide whether to actually believe or not.
I guess religion is kinda like sexuality, in that sense~

Really? You can't?
I've heard people may be genetically/psychologically inclined to believe in something, but I don't see why you can't just change your mind in the religion department. I've grown up in a pretty conservative, Christian family. I was never particularly interested in attending church but the idea of god appealed to me at the time, and I would pray and listen to Adventures in Odyssey and everything. I became an atheist about a year or two ago once I realized it was all BS. All I had to really do was just think about it. I'm quite sure I chose to abandon the religion my family tried to feed me that I once willingly ate up.

this is why we need a theism thread for when stuff like this comes up but I don't like starting threads

 

[Adriane]

To be fair, you can't choose to believe in something. You can choose to act on a belief, but you can't decide whether to actually believe or not.
I guess religion is kinda like sexuality, in that sense~

I used to be a Bible-thumping close-minded conservative fundamentalist Christian. I'm pretty sure I chose to abandon my faith.

 

[Saith]

I guess I worded it wrong, but I meant that, if you actually do believe something, you can't choose not to believe it.

...

That's even worse.

What I mean is that, if someone told me they were giving away free stuff at the something store, I would believe them or wouldn't believe them. If, from that, I was sceptical, deciding they couldn't be trusted, I wouldn't be able to force myself to believe they were telling the truth. I could go down to the something store to check it out, but until the someone is proved right, I wouldn't believe them.

...

Or I'll put it this way, I don't believe in the Christian god. I want to believe in him, I think it'll give me, if not purpose, at least contentment to know that everything is planned, or I'll be forgiven for all my sins, or whatever. But I can't believe in him. I tried to pray to him, I succeeded multiple times. Hell, I even finished with an 'Amen', but in the end, I still don't believe in him.

Asking someone if they want to believe in god is pointless, because it's not a matter of want. If this world was perfect, but I still had a lot of evidence against god, I still wouldn't believe in him, even though the incentive is an afterlife.

Once again, my post is too long. (Also I use too many comas).

 

[Aisling]

I get what you're saying about the store thing. However, if you were presented with proof or a solid argument for the fact that they were giving free things away at the store, would you change your belief in what that person told you earlier? Being presented with a better argument is what made me change my mind about my religion, because once I let myself sit down and think about it (because I had been presented with better arguments before, of course, but shut them out, as the faithful are wont to do) I realized I agreed with it. That's what I was trying to do a few posts ago, present a different argument for this guy to sit down and consider.

So is this going back to the genetically/psychologically inclined thing, I guess? Was I just not inclined to believe, so I was able to reverse it when I was presented with what I was supposed to believe, or something? Are some people unable to escape whatever religion they were first told to believe, or unable to not believe in any religion period (since there's cases of people changing their religion, but still being religious) once they were first told of religion? I would like to think not...

I mean, there's a difference between being skeptical about being told the store was giving away free things, and that there's big invisible man in some other dimension who made rules we need to obey because he made us and loves us, or that unicorns and dragons exist. One is verifiable, the other is not. Why would you be more skeptical and less willing to reconsider the latter than the former?

Sorry if my post was rambley, I sort of just typed things as I thought of them. Some of those questions may or may not be rhetorical and may or may not be counter-questions specifically for you, like... yeah.

edit: I sort of realized my first paragraph implies that you can prove god cannot exist and that would be the "better argument". You can't prove he doesn't exist, but you can't prove that he does either. Same with unicorns and dragons and Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Children might believe in those but eventually grow out of it. Why not religion? What sets it apart?

 

[Tangle]

I neither believe in 'God' nor disbelieve in 'God'. I was raised Christian, but for a few years have been questioning it. Some questions just linger there. I believe in equal rights for all, no matter what orientation, race, etc. I see nothing wrong with homosexuals. I believe they are born gay, as straight people are born straight. Why would they choose to be gay, when they know they will be bashed, possibly shunned from their families or beaten up? I know I wouldn't want to choose something that I know would get me bashed in some way or another.
Sorry to get in the middle of your conversation, Alraunne and Saith. ^^;
This may be a bit of a ramble, I have a headache and can't think straight.

 

[Aisling]

That's a good argument too. While that's a good point, I don't think it should really matter whether it was a choice or not, either. There's nothing wrong with to begin with so it doesn't really make a difference how you got to that point, right?
I'm not sure if that makes it a less viable argument in its defense or not, but when the judgment of wrong or right is dependent on whether it was a choice or not, it makes it sound more like a birth defect or something, or it can be construed that way, at least. "Don't hold it against him, he can't help it!"

 

[Saith]

Wow, I think I either sounded much more intelligent than I am, or much less intelligent than I am.

I didn't mean anything to do with genetics, or hell, anything I can be bothered to get into at 4am.

I just made a small, bitchy statement with nothing to back it up with, because I was trying to be blunt. And therefore cool. Trying to grab some cred, like, innit.

I just meant that if you believe something, you can't choose to not believe it. And vice-versa.
Seriously, wasn't meant to be something that can be argued against. I thought it was fact. :S

If the someone gave me a receipt that showed that he bought stuff for £0.00 from the something store, then I would believe him, just like if I wrested the receipt from him that showed that the stuff was not free, in fact it was bought for a tenner, it would prove me right.

The fact is, I converted from Christianity for a really stupid insignificant reason (my Jehovah's Witness friend wasn't allowed in assembly or something, can't really remember. Or it might have been something about me finding out there wasn't a mosquito heaven, I dunno). Everybody's level of evidence to prove whether god exists or not is different. If he hasn't been disproven to you, then you believe in him. If he hasn't been proven to you, you can't choose not to believe in him because you do believe in him. Goes the same way for atheists. Because no one has dis/proven god yet, there's no concrete evidence for his existence or his non-existence.

If I was given definite proof of his existence, I would have no choice but to believe. If it was proven that he didn't exist, I would have no choice but to disbelieve.

I reiterate, I don't believe in the Christian god. I want to, but I can't. I can't choose to believe, and I didn't choose to not believe. Something that I can't quite remember happened, and I didn't believe in god. I thought through it, Christianity wasn't the right option.

Basically, I couldn't unthink it.


(Also, realllllly off topic discussion that always happens in this sort of thread. I'm pretty sure everyone's too scared to necro the old topic, or to start a new one. Sucks.)

e: ^^^Also those two posts are agreed with. If it was proven to be genetic, people would try to get the gene snipped out or something. I mean, they allow circumcision, right?

And we don't own the thread~

 

[Tangle]

No, it doesn't make a difference. Also, whether a person is gay or not is their personal business. There is no need for us to know, or really care. They want to get married, be recognized like heterosexual couples are, let them. And good point Saith.

 

[opaltiger]

I neither believe in 'God' nor disbelieve in 'God'.

This seems as good a time as any to say it,

No one disbelieves in god. If you've made the jump to not believing in god, that's it - you're there, you're an atheist. Maybe you're questioning, unsure, but really; that's all there is to it, Once you stop believing in god, I don't think you can really start again, not unless you deceive yourself,

 

[Aisling]

Sorry if I got really into it, Saith, I just like thinking "out loud" and your post really made me think. ;o In case you started writing before I went on an editing spree of my last post, you can scroll up there and reply to that if you like (mostly like why do we not believe in Santa Claus anymore, etc). If you don't really want to discuss it, that's cool. Maybe our conversation will make other people think. It's one of those things we'd need more input for to make the best judgment...

 

[Saith]

edit: I sort of realized my first paragraph implies that you can prove god cannot exist and that would be the "better argument". You can't prove he doesn't exist, but you can't prove that he does either. Same with unicorns and dragons and Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Children might believe in those but eventually grow out of it. Why not religion? What sets it apart?

You can prove those can't exist.

You can neither prove nor disprove god.
If you're taught to believe in god, taught things that point towards the existence of god, taught things that favour the Christian beliefs, then you believe in god. You can't disprove god, but you can disprove arguments for god.

So, for example, imagine a Jenga tower, each block representing an argument for (or against) god. The tower itself represents your belief. Once you remove enough blocks, the tower collapses. If you've reached the point at which your belief in him has been destroyed, you can't choose to continue believing.

Honestly, I think we agree, but you think we're debating something deeper than semantics (or I think we're just arguing semantics, when we're obviously not).

All I'm saying is that if you believe, then you can't optionally change your belief, because if you've reached the point where you don't think there's a god, then choice doesn't come into it.

Once you stop believing in god, I don't think you can really start again, not unless you deceive yourself,

Or find the light or something?

e: No, I love arguing, I was just saying that it wasn't all that well thought out when I said it. And yeah, I ramble, too.

e2: Christ, it's 5am, gotta get up at 8.