Is it necessary for a trans* person to transition?

[Adriane]

Yes, which is why people need to stop blogging graphics like this without stopping to think of the implications. (I mean, what are "Eunuchs" doing there and does anyone even use that term anymore...?)

The trans* umbrella is broad, yes, but wow this graphic is pretty bad.

Incidentally, I had the misfortune to find this image being discussed on a radical feminist blog

I'm not sure what your implications are here, but radical feminists get a lot of unnecessary flack considering how varied the radical community is.

I do not consider it a "gross, freakish disease". (I wouldn't think that about any disease though, because it's a shitty thing to do) Although I don't understand why you think having a disease would supposedly erase your personhood. I consider it a medical condition rather than an identity because to me, it is a purely physical problem I have. My mind does not match up with my body. Forcibly trying to get someone who feels such disconnect with their body has shown to do more harm than good, but shit I tried. I really tried so hard to convince myself that I was a butch lesbian and that I could live happily like that, because Christ, who would want to put themselves through all the physical trauma that comes with being a transsexual. It certainly didn't work out for me and I ended up spending 9 months in a psych ward after I tried to mutilate and kill myself.

But you're a trans person. Cis people call trans people freaks and unnatural. Your intentions are great and all, but Hiikaru experiences real dysphoria from cis people. "Although I don't understand why you think having a disease would supposedly erase your personhood." is also a strawman.

Someone mentioned in this thread (I think it was Chal, but I'm too tired to check) that they "don't wish they were cis, but they wish being trans wasn't so difficult". And I guess that's where we both disagree, because even if being trans was widely accepted and nobody bothered you about it, I would still rather be cis. I hate every single possible thing about being a trans person so fucking much.

Yes, it was me. For a few years I considered myself a pre-transitioned MtF transsexual. I hated everything about being a guy. When I met someone who is MtF, that's when I first learned sex transitioning (specifically HRT) is an option. At some point along the road, I realised that by changing to the "opposite" sex and gender, it was like taking myself out of one box (that I hated) and putting myself in another. I had been policing my own gender. Yes, I felt "more" like a girl because I liked more things we consider girly than boyish. I hate my height and rugged appearance (which I still want to change). But I also feel I'm not doing myself any good by continuing to restrict myself with gender. I understand not everyone (trans* people especially) see gender as restricting and may even see it as empowering. But to me, it is a restriction. Because of my appearance and my voice, people automatically gender me as a guy and assume I behave in certain ways because of their assumption that I am a guy. And I'm sick of it. I'm sick of having to police my assigned gender or risk public ridicule, humiliation, or worse.

No, I don't wish I was cis. Just like I don't wish I was "straight".

 

[Byrus]

I'm not sure what your implications are here, but radical feminists get a lot of unnecessary flack considering how varied the radical community is.

I'm really confused by this...? Absolutely everything I've read by radfems goes against everything you've ever said, even the ones who aren't anti-trans.

And it was on a venomously anti-trans site called femonade, so yeah. Look it up and you'll see what I mean

 

[Adriane]

I'm really confused by this...? Absolutely everything I've read by radfems goes against everything you've ever said, even the ones who aren't anti-trans.

And it was on a venomously anti-trans site called femonade, so yeah. Look it up and you'll see what I mean

Liberal feminists blame the legal system, socialist feminists blame capitalism, radical feminists blame patriarchy. Being a radical feminist doesn't make you anti-trans. There are anti-trans radical feminists, yes. But this isn't p ↔ q here.

 

[Byrus]

I understand radfems blame patriarchy as the root cause of oppression, but literally everything I've ever read by them relies on biological essentialism to some degree (as in, women face sex based oppression), which you're heavily against. Just curious, do you know of any radfem orientated blogs that you can agree with?

I've looked through a lot of radfem blogs myself, because I like to hear the other side of things, and I have found a few that I feel are a safe space, so to speak. They're a rarity though, and the most popular radfem sites are all vehemently anti-trans. It's a shame.

 

[Adriane]

I understand radfems blame patriarchy as the root cause of oppression, but literally everything I've ever read by them relies on biological essentialism to some degree (as in, women face sex based oppression), which you're heavily against. Just curious, do you know of any radfem orientated blogs that you can agree with?

I'm a socialist feminist, so not particularly, no.

 

[Byrus]

OK, one last thing before I turn in for the night

Yes, it was me. For a few years I considered myself a pre-transitioned MtF transsexual. I hated everything about being a guy. When I met someone who is MtF, that's when I first learned sex transitioning (specifically HRT) is an option. At some point along the road, I realised that by changing to the "opposite" sex and gender, it was like taking myself out of one box (that I hated) and putting myself in another. I had been policing my own gender. Yes, I felt "more" like a girl because I liked more things we consider girly than boyish. I hate my height and rugged appearance (which I still want to change). But I also feel I'm not doing myself any good by continuing to restrict myself with gender. I understand not everyone (trans* people especially) see gender as restricting and may even see it as empowering. But to me, it is a restriction. Because of my appearance and my voice, people automatically gender me as a guy and assume I behave in certain ways because of their assumption that I am a guy. And I'm sick of it. I'm sick of having to police my assigned gender or risk public ridicule, humiliation, or worse.

No, I don't wish I was cis. Just like I don't wish I was "straight".

If we lived in a world where there were no gender roles or pressure put on men or women to act or dress a certain way, would you mind then if people thought of you as a guy? Or would you still be trans*?

 

[Adriane]

OK, one last thing before I turn in for the night

If we lived in a world where there were no gender roles or pressure put on men or women to act or dress a certain way, would you mind then if people thought of you as a guy? Or would you still be trans*?

I don't think that's so easily answered. I think in a society that worked that way, gender wouldn't exist at all. Otherwise, I couldn't tell unless I knew what it felt like.

 

[Hiikaru]

Yes, which is why people need to stop blogging graphics like this without stopping to think of the implications. (I mean, what are "Eunuchs" doing there and does anyone even use that term anymore...?)

Incidentally, I had the misfortune to find this image being discussed on a radical feminist blog


I decided against responding to your full post because I didn't want to cause further upset, but I want to respond to this part to clarify my view of transsexualism as a medical condition.

I do not consider it a "gross, freakish disease". (I wouldn't think that about any disease though, because it's a shitty thing to do) Although I don't understand why you think having a disease would supposedly erase your personhood. I consider it a medical condition rather than an identity because to me, it is a purely physical problem I have. My mind does not match up with my body. Forcibly trying to get someone who feels such disconnect with their body has shown to do more harm than good, but shit I tried. I really tried so hard to convince myself that I was just a butch lesbian and that I could live happily like that, because Christ, who would want to put themselves through all the trauma that comes with being a transsexual. It certainly didn't work out for me and I ended up spending 9 months in a psych ward after I tried to mutilate and kill myself.

Someone mentioned in this thread (I think it was Chal, but I'm too tired to check) that they "don't wish they were cis, but they wish being trans wasn't so difficult". And I guess that's where we both disagree, because even if being trans was widely accepted and nobody bothered you about it, I would still rather be cis. I hate every single possible thing about being a trans person so fucking much. Even if society accepted me, I would still have to get painful surgeries to actually feel like my body belonged to me. I do appreciate the advancements in trans surgeries and I'm glad they're there, but I'd certainly rather have been born with the right body instead of having to go through all that. If they weren't there, I probably would have killed myself already.

So again, I do not consider it a "freakish disease", but I do consider it an extremely horrible condition that has caused me intense grief and pain. I do not want to consider it apart of my identity because I want to be seen as a man, not a trans man. I would only consider the trans part relevant when I'm discussing my medical history with a doctor or if I was in a relationship. "A man with transsexual history", yeah, that sounds ok.

I don't care if someone wants to refer to it as a identity, that's their own business, but I hope this clears things up regarding my own thoughts on the medical condition aspect.

I realize this probably turned into more of a rant and a vent, sorry.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say, posting in this thread has really burnt me out

That does help clear some things up, so thank you for replying!

I don't think having a disease erases a personhood! It's okay if someone has a disease or a problem, that's not their fault! That's just the way it comes across as what other people think if they're deciding that my dysphoria and gender are just a disease to be fixed! (cis people, and trans* people policing my identity and saying it can't be an identity.) Which feels reaaaaaally incredibly creepy for me since there's lots of other stuff going on with my experiences of it besides just it being a thing to be fixed! So then that's kind of like erasure of all of the other stuff even though it's important for me.

It makes lots of sense if someone just wishes they were born cis and in the right body! It's a lot of struggling and horror to go through that no one should have to! That's definitely a valid thing to wish! At the same time, though, it's really terrifying for me to think about being born cis! (pretending I could even be cis in any meaningful way in a binary society when I'm non-binary.) I really, really don't like thinking about what it would be like to never feel or experience a gender (or at least not in the same way at all) from never having had it questioned to cause those feelings; having those feelings of having a clear experience-able gender is just such an integral part of feeling like I exist and that I'm me! I can't really feel like I exist without also having gender feelings since they're just there, so it just ends up kind of creepy to imagine, like maybe I'd be a robot. People who don't experience that aren't robots, but since gender identity feels pretty much "glued" to me existing at all, then it seems like if my gender identity were taken away, me existing would be taken away, too! So then if that happened I guess I'd just be an empty shell or a robot. Or that's what scares me, anyway.

No one else has to feel that way or be afraid of being a robot. Other people definitely don't have to have it be important to their identity! But maybe that's a little bit clearer explanation for you or for someone else who's wondering how it makes sense as an identity! It's really really tricky to explain.

Also, I kind of feel like being trans* has been really important to learning about how badly things can hurt and how people can't just get over them, and so sensitivity is really important! I don't know that I'd really get that at all if I were cis, so that's kind of scary, too.

 

[Minish]

They're a rarity though, and the most popular radfem sites are all vehemently anti-trans. It's a shame.

The difference is that the problem lots of radfems have with trans-ness these days is that i) femininity, traditionally female roles, etc. are all awful, therefore the idea of someone trying desperately to be accepted carrying it/them out is no good; ii) after a radfem revolution, trans-ness would not exist: therefore, unproductive. Rather than the historical 'woman-born women are the only ones who can truly understand patriarchy as the oppressed!!!' argument of early radfeminism!

There are lots of pretty-okay-with-trans* radfems now; I know writers at I Blame the Patriarchy have written a bit about how being anti-trans* is pretty ridiculous, usually along the lines of 'female-ness is extremely variant' sort of arguments, buuuuut they still seem pretty uninformed and kind of critical of the debate itself, in a sort of 'I'm tired of this whole bother so just stop!!'-Phantom-esque reaction. I think especially non-binary & 'unconventional' trans* identities (e.g. femme transmen who don't care enough about surgery to pursue it forever) are even more of a troublesome question than ultra-femme transwomen, so radfems tend to try to completely ignore it - but they still tend to recognise that it's still a complex issue, at least?

I tend to like lots of what radical feminists say, so I've always been keen on trying to find some that are okay. I definitely hold far too many bad associations with them to forget, but I still don't feel that radfeminism is too far lost to not work with trans*-ness.

 

[Cerberus87]

Yes, which is why people need to stop blogging graphics like this without stopping to think of the implications. (I mean, what are "Eunuchs" doing there and does anyone even use that term anymore...?)

Incidentally, I had the misfortune to find this image being discussed on a radical feminist blog

I personally think the trans* umbrella is rather offensive to transsexual people. It groups together A LOT of things that are completely unrelated to each other. Heck, most transsexual people don't defy the binary, in fact, staying within the binary is what they want the most, except they'd like to stay in the opposite side of it.

It's also the reason why I use LGBT instead of QUILTBAG. No offense to asexual people, but their cause is difficult to reconcile with the rest.

I decided against responding to your full post because I didn't want to cause further upset, but I want to respond to this part to clarify my view of transsexualism as a medical condition.

I do not consider it a "gross, freakish disease". (I wouldn't think that about any disease though, because it's a shitty thing to do) Although I don't understand why you think having a disease would supposedly erase your personhood. I consider it a medical condition rather than an identity because to me, it is a purely physical problem I have. My mind does not match up with my body. Forcibly trying to get someone who feels such disconnect with their body has shown to do more harm than good, but shit I tried. I really tried so hard to convince myself that I was just a butch lesbian and that I could live happily like that, because Christ, who would want to put themselves through all the trauma that comes with being a transsexual. It certainly didn't work out for me and I ended up spending 9 months in a psych ward after I tried to mutilate and kill myself.

Someone mentioned in this thread (I think it was Chal, but I'm too tired to check) that they "don't wish they were cis, but they wish being trans wasn't so difficult". And I guess that's where we both disagree, because even if being trans was widely accepted and nobody bothered you about it, I would still rather be cis. I hate every single possible thing about being a trans person so fucking much. Even if society accepted me, I would still have to get painful surgeries to actually feel like my body belonged to me. I do appreciate the advancements in trans surgeries and I'm glad they're there, but I'd certainly rather have been born with the right body instead of having to go through all that. If they weren't there, I probably would have killed myself already.

So again, I do not consider it a "freakish disease", but I do consider it an extremely horrible condition that has caused me intense grief and pain. I do not want to consider it apart of my identity because I want to be seen as a man, not a trans man. I would only consider the trans part relevant when I'm discussing my medical history with a doctor or if I was in a relationship. "A man with transsexual history", yeah, that sounds ok.

I don't care if someone wants to refer to it as a identity, that's their own business, but I hope this clears things up regarding my own thoughts on the medical condition aspect.

I realize this probably turned into more of a rant and a vent, sorry.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say, posting in this thread has really burnt me out

It's not "wrong" to be transsexual, it's a condition and a very interesting one since the mind doesn't need fixing, it's the body that needs to be redefined.

The rest of the post I fully agree with. I have the feeling that Byrus' opinion is shared by most of the transsexual community. Because then, what's the point of even transitioning? No one in their right mind would want to be born with a body which was the opposite gender of their mind. No one. It brings so much grief and pain, and there's the need to go through HT, psychological treatment, surgery, it's a large road ahead of someone who was born transsexual, when nature could've been gentler to the person and made them born cis.

The way I say it, it may sound like cis people are "better", but that's not the case. Cis people only had the "luck" of being born with compatible mind and body, but it doesn't make them any better than trans people.

 

[Minish]

It's also the reason why I use LGBT instead of QUILTBAG. No offense to asexual people, but their cause is difficult to reconcile with the rest.

Why do you feel like LGB and T people share the same 'causes'? Don't you feel that they're vastly different too, with really different issues? A huge reason that the LGBT community tends to snub and forget about T people is because of this idea that they're too different to fit with general LGBT identity; better just to forget about them and leave them to their own thing, right?

T people have real reason to loathe the 'LGBT' movement for its treatment towards them, by the way. At least with QUILTBAG, it's harder to forget that there's more than just gay, lesbian and bisexual people.

Also: asexual people are a gender or sexual minority, so yes, they do fit.



Cerberus, you are waaay behind. We've just been discussing why some trans* people don't feel the need to go through masses of psychiatry and surger You've just basically dismissed a lot of the trans* people in this thread as not being 'in their right mind', way to go.

Nobody is saying or thinking that cis people are better... ?_?

 

[Cerberus87]

Cerberus, you are waaay behind. We've just been discussing why some trans* people don't feel the need to go through masses of psychiatry and surger You've just basically dismissed a lot of the trans* people in this thread as not being 'in their right mind', way to go.

Nobody is saying or thinking that cis people are better... ?_?

Trans* and transsexual are not the same thing. The former encompasses lots of people who experience gender in a much different way from transsexual people. If you're trans* but consider yourself third gender or even agender, why would you need to transition unless you want it? Also, transition would be a completely different thing which might not even involve surgical transition. You might be third gender and completely fine with your womanly body.

But transsexual people (a branch of trans*) do need to transition. It's not a matter of "needing" to transition. They are going to want to transition at some point. If you have the mind of a woman, you won't want to have fur growing all over your body, beard growing all week, deep voice, excess of testosterone running through your body. You might learn to tolerate it and live a life with your current body, but will it be your true desire? If you don't experience dysphoria, are you really transsexual? There are many transsexual people who only transition when they're more than 40 or 50-years-old.

And, trust me, NO ONE will give you female documents if you still look like a male. Gender is very important legally, there are a myriad of laws applied differently if you're male or female. Laws against domestic violence are ALWAYS weighed in favour of females, for example, as a means of compensating the historical mysoginism in Western society and protecting the physically weaker person (the woman). So yes, it's definitely important to transition. I don't know if you need reassignment surgery to be able to change your gender in documents, though.

Of course, there might be exceptions to that, but every rule has exceptions, even the simplest ones.

 

[Minish]

Trans* and transsexual are not the same thing. The former encompasses lots of people who experience gender in a much different way from transsexual people. If you're trans* but consider yourself third gender or even agender, why would you need to transition unless you want it? Also, transition would be a completely different thing which might not even involve surgical transition. You might be third gender and completely fine with your womanly body.

Okay! That's cool, then. But is there much point in saying all this? I think pretty much everyone agrees with you, so who are you presenting your arguments to? I stiiill feel like you're being a bit too forceful with the 'transsexual people will feel this way', too! :V There are looooots of passing privileges, you're totally right! Which is why there are binary trans people whose main desires for transitioning are only along those lines, rather than some innate hatred of body hair or something.

p.s. a third gender person's body can't be 'womanly'! please don't call a certain type of body that.

Laws against domestic violence are ALWAYS weighed in favour of females, for example, as a means of compensating the historical mysoginism in Western society

Uh that'd be nice but no.

 

[surskitty]

It's also the reason why I use LGBT instead of QUILTBAG. No offense to asexual people, but their cause is difficult to reconcile with the rest.

Yes, because heteronormativity is never an issue at all! I have rather a lot of relatives whose idea of my worth is determined by who I'm dating. ... since I'm not dating anyone, they avoid having conversations with me for reasons I don't want to unpack because they're assholes. Widening acceptance of the LGB bit goes along a little with getting them to fuck off. Expecting me to be in a romantic and probably sexual relationship with someone is mildly less gross than the status quo.

Mostly I would like people to fuck off on the subject if and/or who I'm dating, though, because it's none of their business, and I would wager most LGB people would prefer other people not have strong opinions about it, too.

You might as well complain about the T there since most supposedly-LGBT groups at best forget about trans* people and frequently throw them under the metaphorical bus.

 

[Ether's Bane]

Hey all, I'd like to pose a question (mostly aimed at the non-cis community of TCoD, but if you are cis and have some sort of knowledge about this, feel free to weigh in as well).

I'm doing a report/slideshow for college, and my topic is "why it is wrong for parents to choose the gender in which their child will be raised".

Anyone wanna help me out?

 

[sovram]

Hey all, I'd like to pose a question (mostly aimed at the non-cis community of TCoD, but if you are cis and have some sort of knowledge about this, feel free to weigh in as well).

I'm doing a report/slideshow for college, and my topic is "why it is wrong for parents to choose the gender in which their child will be raised".

Anyone wanna help me out?

Um ... because anyone who thinks otherwise is a chauvinist pig. Yeah.

 

[Ether's Bane]

Um ... because anyone who thinks otherwise is a chauvinist pig. Yeah.

I know that, but are there any more specific reasons?

 

[Murkrow]

inb4 I get told I'm a terrible person for asking a question, but what are parents supposed to do then?
A baby can't communicate with its parents. Should they use the pronoun "they" until the baby is old enough to talk?

Don't most parents not do that? Are you calling most parents in the world chauvinistic pigs? I'm legitimately confused here.

 

[shy ♡]

Honestly I think telling people they should refer to babies as 'they' is probably too extreme - it's maybe the most correct, but I don't think it's really... ever gonna happen. The easiest solution, really, is just to not assume that whatever a baby is assigned at birth means anything other than what you're calling it for now. Because it's a baby, you know, it doesn't really say anything for itself. So until it tells you what it wants, call it whatever - and because it's often easiest to call it he or she, that's what most people do, not correctly but whatever, whatever. As long as you're 100% fine with the baby then saying (when it... can) hey, I don't like 'he', I like x/y/z pronouns, it's not that big an issue.

The main reason gendering babies is a problem is because it's traumatizing to the person when they then transition. But if the parents (and everyone else) don't make a fuss about it at all? It's not that much an issue.

I agree with sovram though - it is more of a symptom of the problem.

Note, there is also the issue of 'they' not being a non-gender; you're still assigning the baby a gender when you assign it a different pronoun. You're assigning it a non-binary gender. So you can't really raise the baby in a blank state; no matter what, it's gonna have a gender assigned to it. There is really no 'empty' gender to give a person until they decide for themselves, unless you refer to it as... idk... not-person. Chair. ???

 

[sovram]

There is really no 'empty' gender to give a person until they decide for themselves, unless you refer to it as... idk... not-person. Chair. ???

Human, perhaps? That's how I see myself.