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Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

But how do you know that Jesus actually said that? How do you know the writers of the Gospels didn't add those bits in to make him seem larger than life?

And well done on ignoring my other points. I could almost respect how much you cling to your rhetoric in the face of logic if not for how sad and pathetic it was.
 
Teh Ebil Snorlax I bloody love you. So straightforward!

Hmm Pwnemon I also believe that people once thought the Earth was flat? Oh, and that the system moved around the Earth? If I were to go into an intelectual discussion in the present believeing that I would be kicked out and ridiculed for the rest of my life.

To quote from An Atheist Manefesto because I lack the word skills.

"If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. "


"There Is No God And You Know It", Sam Harris
 
Well how can you trust any historical book? How do you know that the Black Plague wasn't really a mass murdering group of terrorists killing people all across Europe?

To your other points I can't respond mostly because I'm Christian, although I can say that according to the Torah God inspired all the people to write the Torah.

EDIT at ninja: He did something to stop it, send Jesus to Earth to save us.
 
So your logic is that God inspired people to write the Torah. And your evidence for this? The Torah.

This is called circular logic.

As for trusting any historical book, most accurate historical books are backed up by evidence. There are literally millions of sources of evidence saying that the Black Plague happened but the only "evidence" that God exists is the Bible.

Also, your religion should play no part in your ability to respond to my points on other religions. I'm atheist, for Christ's sake, and I can talk about other religions. Once again, you deliberately avoid confronting the possibility that your worldview may be flawed. Pathetic.
 
We know the Black Plague happened because there is this disease that exists, it's called Bubonic Plague. Plus 30% to 60% of an entire continent's population don't just go poof, it doesn't work that way.


How do you know that the Torah is the inspired works of God and not insane ramblings? Have you read the entire Bible including the Old Testament? It is sad that many Christians are so uneducated in their own religion, did you know that 12% of Christians when polled believed that Noah's wife was Joan of Arc?

Could you name the books of the Pentateuch? Have you ever heard of Indulgences?

Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever.
 
Books of the Pentateuch: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

I don't know what an indulgence is, it's not in the bible.

Twelve percent of Christians are no doubt just culturally raised Christians who call themselves that without really caring in actuality, I've heard many such stories about that type of thing.

I have not read the entire Bible but have read many parts of the Bible. Having come from a "very religious" family, have YOU? Because you seem to find yourself incredibly knowledgable in the indulgences that do not exist.
 
Some people are Christians just by name, don't read the bible, and probably couldn't name the four gospels. I don't really know how they are Christians, though. They just don't want to be part of a minority, I guess.
(Oh, and an indulgence would be money donated to the church so that you can be forgiven of sins, more of a moral duty, rather than doing it out of kindness, right?)
 
Pwnemon said:
I don't know what an indulgence is, it's not in the bible.
Click to expand...

If I'm understanding what Charizard is saying correctly, indulgences were basically when people paid priests money for forgiveness of whatever sins they committed. Complete with price lists! Cheated on your wife? God forgives you for ten shekels. Cheating on her with a man is five extra. Couldn't find any Biblical support for that definition of indulgence, but I could find a few references to the word used in other contexts.

I... guess like Sage Noctowl said it could be seen as a kind of moral duty, but really, it was done historically because the church was running low on cash. Good number of Christians didn't like that idea, and indulgences were basically the big thing that got Martin Luther started on the road to Protestantism, assuming I remembered his protests properly.

Pwnemon said:
Twelve percent of Christians are no doubt just culturally raised Christians who call themselves that without really caring in actuality, I've heard many such stories about that type of thing.
Click to expand...

And 79% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Also, this is dangerously close to a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Pwnemon said:
I have not read the entire Bible but have read many parts of the Bible. Having come from a "very religious" family, have YOU?
Click to expand...

My mom's an agnostic, my dad is a very moderate Christian, and I was never brought to church or taught about religion. I haven't read the entire Bible, but like you, I've read a good few parts of it.

Pwnemon said:
Because you seem to find yourself incredibly knowledgable in the indulgences that do not exist.
Click to expand...

hurr because the only way to know about indulgences is by reading the Bible.
 
No, my point was that the only way to learn about indulgences was to NOT read the bible.

I said twelve percent because he did.
 
I said twelve percent because he did.
Click to expand...

I am not a "he".

No, my point was that the only way to learn about indulgences was to NOT read the bible.
Click to expand...


Any European History class will teach you of Indulgences.

Because you seem to find yourself incredibly knowledgable in the indulgences that do not exist.
Click to expand...

They do, look it up before looking stupid.

have not read the entire Bible but have read many parts of the Bible. Having come from a "very religious" family, have YOU?
Click to expand...

Yes, I have. Twice as I do recall. I went to Private Catholic school since I was in kindergarten. (Graduated from a school of the LaSallian rite, taught by Christian Brothers) (graduated in 2009) One being college prep. Which meant I took a minimum of two theology classes a year, in high school, aside from a life of religion. Two relatives are priests, my grandfather is a respected member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and one of my best friends is joining the priesthood. I was an alter server for twelve years, received four of the seven sacraments. I also took a theology class in college as well as three philisophy classes..... I've also taken a World Religions course (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Judaism) and a class on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I've even met a Cardinal and was able to speak with him for a prolonged period of time.

And I'm an Atheist.

Indulgences were "get out of hell free cards" .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence yes wikipedia, but it can give you an idea...

don't know what an indulgence is, it's not in the bible.
Click to expand...

Actually, it is.

But first, this is proved by The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states, "An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).

A mention of something similar in the Bible

Matthew 5:26
Truly, I say to you, you will never get out (of Hell) until you have paid the last penny.



Am I qualified to speak of these things now?
 
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Um... Are you sure it's in the Bible? I pulled up bible.cc, but I couldn't find anything about indulgences. Is it different wording?
 
It isn't directly mentioned, but it is considered a "holy act" in the Catholic Church according to the Bibles teachings of sins and forgiveness.

See my previous post.

Apologies for the edit, you must also know that historically these Indulgences were abused greatly.

Also Pwnemon, if Indulgences don't exist because they aren't in the Bible, what about the Crusades? The Inquisition? Witch Burning? Did none of these happen or never existed?
 
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For the record, I've read the Bible seven times. Six when I was Catholic and once since becoming atheist.

Also, I continue to feel a strange mix amusement and pity at your continued ignoring of my posts, Pwnemon. I'd almost call you a sophist if your rhetoric was even half-convincing.
 
I ignore your posts because they're mostly bashings with maybe one or two sentences worth responding to, which I do.
 
Only if you count "bashings" as "points that disgree with your worldview".

Look, if you just admitted that you can't answer our points, it'd be very sporting and mature of you and we'd all have a lot more respect for you as a person. But as it is, you simply ignore any of our points that contradict you and shovel on the rhetoric. And when you try to do that, we're going to call you out on it.

Rhetoric works when you're trying to convince an ignorant audience, not when you're trying to convince an opponent.
 
Charizard2K said:
A mention of something similar in the Bible

Matthew 5:26
Truly, I say to you, you will never get out (of Hell) until you have paid the last penny.
Click to expand...

Context, please.

Matthew 5:25-26

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Charizard: I think he meant that he thought that they didn't do anything, not that the church hadn't sold them.
 
What I am genuinely curious about is what makes Christians feel their religion is any less ridiculous than [your choice of religion here]?

"Because most of the country/continent/world is Christian!" is not a valid answer. Christianity was confined to the Eurasia area until imperialism literally forced the religion on the rest of the world. If an entire population has the choice between converting or dying, either choice results in a Christian population. Southwestern natives converted, or they were killed. Spanish and Portugese conquest wiped aboriginal Central and South America so that only people of European decent remained.

In places like Japan, Christianity was never particularly welcome -- they had just assumed it was some new Indian fad. It still remains a minority religion today with 1-2% of Japanese claiming the faith.
 
I was not going to give the excuse that you gave as an example excuse, anyways, if you had just asked the question.
One: I agree with the rules and tenents of this religion, and find it to make sense morally.
Two: Christianity acknowleges that people are inherently evil, and promises forgiveness of sins to those that just have faith.
Three: I don't accept the idea of dying, getting amnesia, and rebirthing, I find it pretty much like just dying and a new person taking your place, but with the same spirit.
Four: Nature should be respected, but I don't really think that it is composed of spirits.
One of these days, though, I'm going to spend more time learning about other religions.
 
You haven't answered the question at all. All you've said really is that "I believe Christianity is less ridiculous that other religions because I am Christian."
 
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