Point one is about the only vaguely relevant answer. And it's not particularly unique to Christianity.
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Theism, Religion and Lack thereof
- Thread starter Aisling
- Start date
Point one is about the only vaguely relevant answer. And it's not particularly unique to Christianity.
Sage Noctowl
Because Awesome-me = 2 times the awesome
You mean you chose to be a Christian without an inkling of knowledge of other religions? You had to make some conscious decision -- otherwise you were just brainwashed into Christianity. Such is the vicious cycle.
Phantom
Uh, I didn't do it.
Pwnemon also seems to be annoying me TES, so don't feel left out. And TES I wouldn't even call him sophic.
Alas, ignorance is bliss, truly it is.
The wisest person must admit that he is wrong because no man knows all things, as was said by Socrates,
A lesson I believe young Pwnemon should learn.
Also Sage, in respect to your response to my post, in which you said,
Also remember that the Chrisitian church is one of methaphors and symbols. Consider you are an an Christian born during the middle ages. You believe the Church is the upmost authority on topics of God and his word, and that the Pope himself is God's steward on Earth. Imagine that text twisted, turn it into a parable of sorts. The "matters" being sin; "court" being judgement; "while you are still with him on the way" being alive, or frankly put your life with the Holy Ghost; the "judge" could mean God; the "officer" being "the devil"; "prison" being either purgatory or hell. Then add the last line, with some tweaking and...
Settle your sins quickly with the one who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still walk with the Spirit in life, or you may be handed over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the devil, and you may be thrown into hell. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Take out a few words replace them to fit your meaning, that is what has happened to the Bible over the centuries of its existence.
(BTW the devil being the officer fits because was not Lucifer a member of the Gods archangels?)
Also another version could be...
"Settle matters quickly with your the devil who tempts you. Do it while you are still with the LORD on the way, or the LORD may hand you over to judgement, and the judgement may hand you over to the the devil, and you may be thrown into hell. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Satan is commonly referred to as "the adversary the judge is God, as he is often referred, the officer, Satan once again, who will be your jailor in hell.
I'v not only seen the context, I looked deeper.
Alas, ignorance is bliss, truly it is.
The wisest person must admit that he is wrong because no man knows all things, as was said by Socrates,
A lesson I believe young Pwnemon should learn.
Also Sage, in respect to your response to my post, in which you said,
Also remember that the Chrisitian church is one of methaphors and symbols. Consider you are an an Christian born during the middle ages. You believe the Church is the upmost authority on topics of God and his word, and that the Pope himself is God's steward on Earth. Imagine that text twisted, turn it into a parable of sorts. The "matters" being sin; "court" being judgement; "while you are still with him on the way" being alive, or frankly put your life with the Holy Ghost; the "judge" could mean God; the "officer" being "the devil"; "prison" being either purgatory or hell. Then add the last line, with some tweaking and...
Settle your sins quickly with the one who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still walk with the Spirit in life, or you may be handed over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the devil, and you may be thrown into hell. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Take out a few words replace them to fit your meaning, that is what has happened to the Bible over the centuries of its existence.
(BTW the devil being the officer fits because was not Lucifer a member of the Gods archangels?)
Also another version could be...
"Settle matters quickly with your the devil who tempts you. Do it while you are still with the LORD on the way, or the LORD may hand you over to judgement, and the judgement may hand you over to the the devil, and you may be thrown into hell. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Satan is commonly referred to as "the adversary the judge is God, as he is often referred, the officer, Satan once again, who will be your jailor in hell.
I'v not only seen the context, I looked deeper.
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Sage Noctowl
Because Awesome-me = 2 times the awesome
Teh Ebil Snorlax
izombie, uzombie, weallzombie
Pwnemon
will remain confined to the pokemon topics
Either way, Charizard2K has some points, but he missed one thing.
Back before around sixteenth or seventeenth century Christianity, and people such as George Whitfield (sp) and Martin Luther and other such people, the common people had no Bible. Plus they were all printed in Latin so even had you had a bible you would have no clue how to read it because only preachers knew Latin. This basically enslaved people to whatever the preachers wanted. So if a preacher had read that passage he could twist and warp it however he wanted. The basis of indulgences.
Back before around sixteenth or seventeenth century Christianity, and people such as George Whitfield (sp) and Martin Luther and other such people, the common people had no Bible. Plus they were all printed in Latin so even had you had a bible you would have no clue how to read it because only preachers knew Latin. This basically enslaved people to whatever the preachers wanted. So if a preacher had read that passage he could twist and warp it however he wanted. The basis of indulgences.
hopeandjoy
yan ya yan ya yaa iii yaaa
- Pronoun
- she/her
actually, pre-renaissance italy (which is what I'm sure you're referring to) held the church with most educational rights, like learning to read and making it even more difficult for common people. but isn't this similar to today? you've mentioned yourself that you haven't actually fully read the bible, so do you rely on what other people tell you of Christianity (like a local priest, or your parents or something)?Pwnemon said:
I don't know if I could feel comfortable basing my morals on a book that I haven't read.
Phantom
Uh, I didn't do it.
I will say it once and only this once more... I am female, thank you.
What part of I made that up don't you get? I was showing it as an example about how things can become so twisted when taken from perspective or even by changing a few words.
Also have you read that entire chapter? It happens to be the chapter containing the sermon containing the Beatitudes. Lets go further back shall we?
Matthew 5:22-26
But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna.Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
Note the different wording by the way, taken from my personal Bible. (New American)
Just think of how that can be twisted further!
Tarvos
helt plötsligt blev det tyst
The lack of curiosity amongst religious folk is entirely disturbing.
You want to know what I think? I wasn't raised religiously, my parents didn't think that was a good idea, but they still encouraged me to read about religion. So they gave me books to read. I remember I got a children's bible from my grandmother (who wasn't even in the church anymore at that point). I got Greek/Roman mythology from school. Various other stories. When I was twelve my grandmother (other side) died and she was Catholic. So I tried praying. Nothing happened. I didn't feel better. She didn't come back. I was *forced* to accept that death is utterly final. I wanted things to be better. But nobody listens when you pray inside your head. Nobody can hear you. It's just an internal monologue. There's nobody there.
But that didn't shake my faith or belief or anything. I didn't really know whatever I believed. But here's the thing - even back then I realised I was seeing two facets of the same coin. Two different stories, telling me essentially the same thing - it doesn't matter what story you stick on creation, what fiction you believe that got you here. They are stories, inside our head, and prayer is nothing but the realisation of stories as that internal monologue. But you can only read different stories if you are curious. If you want to know more. Basically, those set in conservative ways of thought....they don't want to know. They don't want their skirt to hold, thumb to suck to be destroyed by someone who says life isn't like they imagined it to be.
Being able to admit you are wrong takes strength of character. The fool that believeth his wounds are not infected when pus drips over the edges of the blooded rims is as much ignorant as he that believes his stories are real when something contradicting him stares that in the face. To be curious, to be able to admit what you are saying is not invariably correct, and to want to know more are what really constitute virtues. I didn't pray for my grandmother to come back because if I didn't I would be reprimanded by God. I am a structured person, so losing her was a blow to the thought of what I held sacred at that point, but I overcame that too. New structures appear when old ones die. Situations change. They force an adaptation.
Tolkien (a Catholic, may I add) said it best when:
"The great wide world is all about you. You can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence it out".
If you really want to be moral, you should be curious about what morality is. About how you attain morality. And not just hold the greater skirts of those who trod paths before you and presented you with their idea of morality on a silver platter, in finished palatable bits to behold. Humans are fallible. Their logic contains errors. It is up to you to discern what is false and what is not, but you can't do it by using the definition of what is false from something that is false. It returns garbage, always.
I understand not many people are capable of this. They choose to believe things that are wrong, either out of resignation to their fate, because they don't want to face reality and run away, or because it serves some other superficial purpose in their lives. Those who believe they are right and that this belief is somehow set in stone should not be trusted. I trust my beliefs in so far as that I have seen evidence for them to be correct but if God walks down and says to me that all I have believed these years is utterly wrong, I'll shake his hand and say: "I know now that it is. But the evidence did not point that way before you came down here. If you had wanted me to believe in you, you should have made this clearer to me. You are God, you know how you would appeal to me". And if God rejected that reasoning I could never be friends with him.
You want to know the irony in my life. I'm an atheist. I'm in a long-term relationship with a Jewish girl (not very religious). But her life and customs are markedly different from my own. She doesn't follow Christmas traditions and she doesn't understand that you get chocolate for Easter, simply because she never celebrated. But it's different. I went to Pesach with her last year and it was great - not because I believe in Judaism. But because I was curious about how they live their lives. Everyone has their own version of the truth. You must understand that only curiosity about the differences between our truths can resolve what truth actually is. By hammering your beliefs in stone you lose every rational edge.
You want to know what I think? I wasn't raised religiously, my parents didn't think that was a good idea, but they still encouraged me to read about religion. So they gave me books to read. I remember I got a children's bible from my grandmother (who wasn't even in the church anymore at that point). I got Greek/Roman mythology from school. Various other stories. When I was twelve my grandmother (other side) died and she was Catholic. So I tried praying. Nothing happened. I didn't feel better. She didn't come back. I was *forced* to accept that death is utterly final. I wanted things to be better. But nobody listens when you pray inside your head. Nobody can hear you. It's just an internal monologue. There's nobody there.
But that didn't shake my faith or belief or anything. I didn't really know whatever I believed. But here's the thing - even back then I realised I was seeing two facets of the same coin. Two different stories, telling me essentially the same thing - it doesn't matter what story you stick on creation, what fiction you believe that got you here. They are stories, inside our head, and prayer is nothing but the realisation of stories as that internal monologue. But you can only read different stories if you are curious. If you want to know more. Basically, those set in conservative ways of thought....they don't want to know. They don't want their skirt to hold, thumb to suck to be destroyed by someone who says life isn't like they imagined it to be.
Being able to admit you are wrong takes strength of character. The fool that believeth his wounds are not infected when pus drips over the edges of the blooded rims is as much ignorant as he that believes his stories are real when something contradicting him stares that in the face. To be curious, to be able to admit what you are saying is not invariably correct, and to want to know more are what really constitute virtues. I didn't pray for my grandmother to come back because if I didn't I would be reprimanded by God. I am a structured person, so losing her was a blow to the thought of what I held sacred at that point, but I overcame that too. New structures appear when old ones die. Situations change. They force an adaptation.
Tolkien (a Catholic, may I add) said it best when:
"The great wide world is all about you. You can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence it out".
If you really want to be moral, you should be curious about what morality is. About how you attain morality. And not just hold the greater skirts of those who trod paths before you and presented you with their idea of morality on a silver platter, in finished palatable bits to behold. Humans are fallible. Their logic contains errors. It is up to you to discern what is false and what is not, but you can't do it by using the definition of what is false from something that is false. It returns garbage, always.
I understand not many people are capable of this. They choose to believe things that are wrong, either out of resignation to their fate, because they don't want to face reality and run away, or because it serves some other superficial purpose in their lives. Those who believe they are right and that this belief is somehow set in stone should not be trusted. I trust my beliefs in so far as that I have seen evidence for them to be correct but if God walks down and says to me that all I have believed these years is utterly wrong, I'll shake his hand and say: "I know now that it is. But the evidence did not point that way before you came down here. If you had wanted me to believe in you, you should have made this clearer to me. You are God, you know how you would appeal to me". And if God rejected that reasoning I could never be friends with him.
You want to know the irony in my life. I'm an atheist. I'm in a long-term relationship with a Jewish girl (not very religious). But her life and customs are markedly different from my own. She doesn't follow Christmas traditions and she doesn't understand that you get chocolate for Easter, simply because she never celebrated. But it's different. I went to Pesach with her last year and it was great - not because I believe in Judaism. But because I was curious about how they live their lives. Everyone has their own version of the truth. You must understand that only curiosity about the differences between our truths can resolve what truth actually is. By hammering your beliefs in stone you lose every rational edge.
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Minish
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- Pronoun
- they
Brilliant post, Watershed.
The lack of curiosity instilled in people of, particularly, Abrahamic faiths has alway been disturbing to me as well. I can deal with Christians most of the time, as long as they aren't actively preaching or proselytising at me. But the fact that the Bible is seen as the most important thing in the world, that everything anyone needs to know about the world is in there, makes me feel really uncomfortable and I can't understand why there are people who don't question it even in this day and age.
The lack of curiosity instilled in people of, particularly, Abrahamic faiths has alway been disturbing to me as well. I can deal with Christians most of the time, as long as they aren't actively preaching or proselytising at me. But the fact that the Bible is seen as the most important thing in the world, that everything anyone needs to know about the world is in there, makes me feel really uncomfortable and I can't understand why there are people who don't question it even in this day and age.
Sage Noctowl
Because Awesome-me = 2 times the awesome
The question is, what other alternate way is there to get morality? I'd rather live a probable lie than to come to the belief that there is nothing, nothing keeping us from straying. If a person does wrong things throughout their life (unless you're a moral skeptic), and that perrson never gets caught or punished, and dies, where is the fairness in that? Why should we follow them if we could easily get away with anything, and hurt others?
- Pronoun
- he/him
Because we are social animals. Mutual altruism is a stable strategy - if one individual decides to abandon morals and hurt other members of society, that individual will be shunned. Morality existed a long time before religion.
Minish
*
- Pronoun
- they
But this makes no sense. You're saying that you want to believe there's a hell because these people deserve to be punished - but believing it doesn't make it true. If you're following a lie, and are aware of it, then where does this leave you? I'd rather live the Christian lie too, it would be wonderful to think that after life, bad people get punished and good people end up in heaven. But I don't believe it, as much as I'd want it to be true.
Why does morality have to be linked with religion? I've never gotten that. I am a good person because I believe in being a good person. I believe that it's a just, honourable way to live. It gives meaning to my life to be good and to do good. Why can't you be the same? Why do you have to believe that there's a punishment waiting for those who do bad to do good yourself? Because that means you're just doing good to avoid punishment, right?
Phantom
Uh, I didn't do it.
We are all atheists in respects to Zeus and Thor. Their faith that their people had for deities were as strong as any faith or belief now with the God of Abraham. How could people with such faith toss away this faith and instead worship another? Proof that faith is fleeting.
I believe that religion, especially this blind faith, is dangerous. Millions have died in religious conflict, in the name of their respective gods. Isn't killing still killing whether or not it is in the name of a deity? Is it still wrong to believe that killing is bad? Should I walk over to my neighbor who is Muslim and shoot him, and when the police question me I say it was because he was a non believer? It sounds wrong because it is. Yet millions have died in the same conflict for the sake of faith and religion. The Crusades, the Spanish Conquistadores, the Inquisition, the French Wars of Religion, Protestants vs. Catholics, Thirty Years War, Taipeng Rebellion, the Islamic notion of Jihad, the Jewish Milkhemet Mitzvah, the Christian Milites Christi, the Holocaust,the Reconquista, and many more.
There have been 123 wars considered to be purely religious, 66 of them involving Islam. That doesn't include the numerous conflicts, such as Terrorism and the issues between the warring tribes in Iraq, or the issues in Ireland and Northern Ireland.
I believe that religion, especially this blind faith, is dangerous. Millions have died in religious conflict, in the name of their respective gods. Isn't killing still killing whether or not it is in the name of a deity? Is it still wrong to believe that killing is bad? Should I walk over to my neighbor who is Muslim and shoot him, and when the police question me I say it was because he was a non believer? It sounds wrong because it is. Yet millions have died in the same conflict for the sake of faith and religion. The Crusades, the Spanish Conquistadores, the Inquisition, the French Wars of Religion, Protestants vs. Catholics, Thirty Years War, Taipeng Rebellion, the Islamic notion of Jihad, the Jewish Milkhemet Mitzvah, the Christian Milites Christi, the Holocaust,the Reconquista, and many more.
There have been 123 wars considered to be purely religious, 66 of them involving Islam. That doesn't include the numerous conflicts, such as Terrorism and the issues between the warring tribes in Iraq, or the issues in Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Minish
*
- Pronoun
- they
Christianisation was hardly just everyone just tossing away their faith for another...!
Religion isn't the root of all evil - it's what religion is used for that is bad and causes war. Terrorism is not a wholly religious issue, what about political terrorism?
To be honest, I think a world that had never had religion would just have found another excuse like it.
Phantom
Uh, I didn't do it.
Please explain.
No it wasn't just that, it was that, or they were forced or killed to do so.
I did not say that it was the "root of all evil". Not only is it what religion is used for, it's what the religious believe that is the problem. No, there are some good things religion has brought, the ideals of self meditation being one of them.
Also I mentioned terrorism in terms of the Taliban and other religious forms of terrorism. I love how you picked terrorism out of all those issues.
Pwnemon
will remain confined to the pokemon topics
Dang you laid on the straw men thick and heavy. "IF I ONLY HAD A BRAIN!"