Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

[voltianqueen]

Re: Christianity

I come from a Baptist family. I was never really taught much about it, other than God made everything, Jesus died for you, etc. so I just took it and said "okay!" So yeah, I kinda believed, I guess, but I always had this weird doubt about it... I tried very hard to get with God when I was 10/11, it started dying off at 12, then sometime after that, I started thinking about it and I was like..what? Then I found TCoD o_o

So yeah, I dunno what to call myself now. I think that there MAY be something out there, but I don't think it's this awesome-something that made us and cares about us and stuff. Or it's not there at all. I don't really want to bother...

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Christianity

Nope. Several of us, including me, weren't raised in any religion at all. NWT even mentioned it.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: Christianity

Right, I guess I'd better post.

I was raised with no mention of religion. I cannot recall a single instance in my childhood when either of my parents talked about religion at all. I can't remember what I thought of the subject when I was younger; I'm fairly sure I was aware religion existed, but didn't really take it seriously, and didn't realise other people took it as seriously as they did.

And this, really, is the difference between religious indoctrination and "atheist indoctrination". I'm not an atheist because my parents raised me to be an atheist. I'm an atheist because my parents didn't raise me one way or the other; you can't possibly claim I was indoctrinated by their non-action. It is an indisputable fact, and one far too often ignored, that atheism is very obviously the default position.

 

[Pwnemon]

Re: Christianity

Right, I guess I'd better post.

I was raised with no mention of religion. I cannot recall a single instance in my childhood when either of my parents talked about religion at all. I can't remember what I thought of the subject when I was younger; I'm fairly sure I was aware religion existed, but didn't really take it seriously, and didn't realise other people took it as seriously as they did.

And this, really, is the difference between religious indoctrination and "atheist indoctrination". I'm not an atheist because my parents raised me to be an atheist. I'm an atheist because my parents didn't raise me one way or the other; you can't possibly claim I was indoctrinated by their non-action. It is an indisputable fact, and one far too often ignored, that atheism is very obviously the default position.

...On the other hand, it's impossible to argue that atheist indoctrination cannot exist, because it obviously can.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: Christianity

...On the other hand, it's impossible to argue that atheist indoctrination cannot exist, because it obviously can.

I'm not arguing that it cannot exist, I'm arguing that it, for the most part, does not exist.

 

[Minish]

Re: Christianity

Right, I guess I'd better post.

I was raised with no mention of religion. I cannot recall a single instance in my childhood when either of my parents talked about religion at all. I can't remember what I thought of the subject when I was younger; I'm fairly sure I was aware religion existed, but didn't really take it seriously, and didn't realise other people took it as seriously as they did.

And this, really, is the difference between religious indoctrination and "atheist indoctrination". I'm not an atheist because my parents raised me to be an atheist. I'm an atheist because my parents didn't raise me one way or the other; you can't possibly claim I was indoctrinated by their non-action. It is an indisputable fact, and one far too often ignored, that atheism is very obviously the default position.

This completely fits with my own experience. In fact, I think it's the situation of a huge amount of people in both the UK and Europe as a whole (and maybe something that is alien to most Americans).

And it's why, despite not being an atheist (or, really, being typically religious), I think absolute secularism is the way forward for humanity. Vague atheism should always be the default position.

On the topic of Christianity, I basically have major problems with it. Definitely one of my least favourite religions!

 

[Phantom]

Re: Christianity

Atheism is not a doctrine! Atheism isn't a philosophy, it's not a religion, like I said the term shouldn't even exist!

Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma.

Might I suggest you read There Is No God and You Know It
by Sam Harris

 

[Aobaru]

Re: Christianity

...Is everyone on this entire site a former Catholic now-agnostic/atheist?

Former Protestant, now agnostic.

Why am I agnostic? Because I see no proof either way; that is, no proof for either theism or atheism. And it is virtually impossible to prove the existence or nonexistence of a deity. Show me some definitive proof (preferably photographic) and I'll gladly subscribe to your religion. Until then, my theory on it all is that people create God in their own mind to explain what they don't, or can't, understand.

 

[#1 bro]

Re: Christianity

It is an indisputable fact, and one far too often ignored, that atheism is very obviously the default position.

hmmm I don't know, if atheism is the default position then why did early civilizations start worshiping the sun when they had nothing else to worship? people really like the idea of looking to a higher power and I might take a shot in the dark and guess that you had a fairly easy/sheltered childhood if you never found the need to do so. personally, I believed in reincarnation before anyone had ever told me about it, to share an example from my own life.

as for me, my parents took me to church every Sunday but neither of them I think actually believe very strongly and I don't remember ever talking about religion at home. even though I went to church, I can't recall a time where I ever believed in God. I think I always considered the things they taught us in church to just be stories although I'm not entirely sure. by first grade, though, I definitely didn't believe in him.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Re: Christianity

hmmm I don't know, if atheism is the default position then why did early civilizations start worshiping the sun when they had nothing else to worship? people really like the idea of looking to a higher power and I might take a shot in the dark and guess that you had a fairly easy/sheltered childhood if you never found the need to do so. personally, I believed in reincarnation before anyone had ever told me about it, to share an example from my own life.

as for me, my parents took me to church every Sunday but neither of them I think actually believe very strongly and I don't remember ever talking about religion at home. even though I went to church, I can't recall a time where I ever believed in God. I think I always considered the things they taught us in church to just be stories although I'm not entirely sure. by first grade, though, I definitely didn't believe in him.

He's not saying atheist is a social default position, he's saying that atheism is the personal default position; everyone is born atheist.

 

[#1 bro]

Re: Christianity

He's not saying atheist is a social default position, he's saying that atheism is the personal default position; everyone is born atheist.

huh? what I was trying to say was that maybe even if everyone is technically born atheist, i don't think atheism is necessarily the "default" in the sense that "everyone would be atheist if it weren't for societal pressures and the fact that they are exposed to religion at a young age". personally, I think that even if someone lived alone for their entire life in a cave, apart from the rest of society, they might eventually decide on their own that there is a higher power.

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Christianity

Former Protestant, now agnostic.

Why am I agnostic? Because I see no proof either way; that is, no proof for either theism or atheism. And it is virtually impossible to prove the existence or nonexistence of a deity. Show me some definitive proof (preferably photographic) and I'll gladly subscribe to your religion. Until then, my theory on it all is that people create God in their own mind to explain what they don't, or can't, understand.

That is atheism. We don't believe that there is no God; we just assume, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that there isn't, the exact same way we assume there are no unicorns or leprechauns - which, as far as I can tell, is exactly what you're doing. By your definitions, we're agnostic. By our definition (which I would argue makes more sense, since atheists by your definition are almost nonexistent and this leaves room for agnosticism to be defined more usefully as the actual refusal to assume either way), you're an atheist. Either way our only disagreement is the words we're using.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Re: Christianity

huh? what I was trying to say was that maybe even if everyone is technically born atheist, i don't think atheism is necessarily the "default" in the sense that "everyone would be atheist if it weren't for societal pressures and the fact that they are exposed to religion at a young age". personally, I think that even if someone lived alone for their entire life in a cave, apart from the rest of society, they might eventually decide on their own that there is a higher power.

If everyone is born atheist, then atheism is the default. If someone starts out with an absence of belief and then eventually decides that there is a higher power, they are still atheist by default and became theistic later.

No one is using your definition of "default" because that's not what default means. We're just saying everyone is born atheist. Of course everyone's going to developed their own beliefs as they grow and learn, no one is saying that's not true.

 

[Aobaru]

Re: Christianity

That is atheism. We don't believe that there is no God; we just assume, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that there isn't, the exact same way we assume there are no unicorns or leprechauns - which, as far as I can tell, is exactly what you're doing.

I see what you're saying, but the difference is that I don't assume there is no God. You don't assume something when there is no evidence either way. Do I think it's more likely that there isn't a God? Yes. However, I do not deny the possibility.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: Christianity

I see what you're saying, but the difference is that I don't assume there is no God. You don't assume something when there is no evidence either way. Do I think it's more likely that there isn't a God? Yes. However, I do not deny the possibility.

You're making several important mistakes here. First is the assumption that the nonexistence of god requires proof. This is nonsense; you cannot prove that something doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on those who claim god does exist. Saying "there's no evidence either way" is nonsensical, because atheism isn't based on the fact that there is evidence proving god doesn't exist - it is based on the fact that there is no evidence proving he does exist. Atheism takes the default and most logical position, i.e. that it is ridiculous to assume something does exist when there is absolutely no evidence to support this claim.

The second mistake is that you think atheists deny the possibility of god's existence. We (or at least I) don't. Being an atheist says nothing about whether or not I think god might exist - all it says is that I, personally, have no reason to think he does. I am perfectly aware of the fact that there is a possibility of god's existence, I just happen to think that possibility is extremely unlikely.

Now I'd like to challenge your claim that you don't assume god exists or doesn't exist. In theory this is all very well and good, but in practice I think you'll find you do, actually, assume god doesn't exist. This is similar to the point that agnosticism (as it is so unfortunately misconceived) is actually atheism. Let's try break it down:

1. You don't assume one way or the other about the question of god's existence.
2. Therefore you do not assume god exists.
3. Therefore you do not lead your life in line with the belief of god's existence.
4. Therefore you do not have a belief in god.
5. Therefore you are an atheist.

I would argue that any position apart from a straight forward, unequivocal "god exists" is atheism. What I'm trying to say is, all the objections you're raising - they're not objections. No atheist denies the possibility that god exists. You say you don't make assumptions - by the simple act of not assuming god exists (and I'm guessing you don't, since you haven't mentioned observing any religious practices etc.) you are assuming he doesn't. Because otherwise you would observe religious practices. You see what I'm saying? If you assume god exists, there are certain things you have to do - rules to live by, that sort of thing - but if you assume he doesn't, you don't have to do anything special. It's not like you have to go and follow rules of atheism; simply by not assuming god exists, you are assuming he doesn't.

Atheism is by no means one end of the scale; it is not an equivalent to theism. It is the absence of theism. That is all, pure and simple; unless you believe in a god, you are an atheist.

 

[Phantom]

Re: Christianity

No atheist denies the possibility that god exists.

I do. There are two kinds of atheists, those who deny completely (strong/hard atheists), and those who think the possiblilty of a God is very very unlikely (basic/weak atheists).

I say there is no God, and there is no possibility of one. I see no proof, therefore there is no possibility. Though this is my opinion, I "classify" myself with the strong atheist category.

I find it difficult to explain at the moment, but this site seems to explain it decently.

 

[Aobaru]

Re: Christianity

So where would agnosticism fit in? Would it be a synonym for atheism?

I understand we're getting into semantics here... but I disagree with your point that "unless you believe in a god, you are an atheist" because that implies only two courses of action: belief or non-belief in a god. There are those, including myself, who would not feel comfortable taking either side.

 

[1. Luftballon]

Re: Christianity

if you're actually actively denying it, that's pretty much the same actively believing, no?

So where would agnosticism fit in? Would it be a synonym for atheism?

I understand we're getting into semantics here... but I disagree with your point that "unless you believe in a god, you are an atheist" because that implies only two courses of action: belief or non-belief in a god. There are those, including myself, who would not feel comfortable taking either side.

there are two courses of action: believing unsupportable proposition x, and not believing unsupportable proposition x.

rethink your logic.

 

[Jason-Kun]

Re: Christianity

So where would agnosticism fit in? Would it be a synonym for atheism?

No, because Agnositics think it's impossible to know whether or not god exists, which is why it's possible to be an Agnostic Theist or an Agnostic Atheist. Atheism on its own on the other hand doesn't leave room for a possibility of a god.

 

[1. Luftballon]

Re: Christianity

if there are people who believe a god is provable, they are either insane or brainwashed. or something like that. agnosticism is kind of useless.