Gaza

[J.T.]

Okay... I'm honestly offended by the suggestion that Israel should never have been made. It's just - the way I've been raised, with most of my family being killed because they had no where to live that was Jewish land? No Jewish military, no place that would defend them without feeling... like they were taking care of a sick child or something, but instead doing so because it's their country, our country. Israel gives us a place to feel safe.

and this feeling is exactly the feeling Palestinians are feeling

Really, I'm not much interested in how we got it. I'm sure that'll annoy you or whatever, but how often is land acquired peacefully?

... how the fuck do you argue with complete apathy

Actually that's not even my point, I just don't care. It's so stupid. Everyone whining about the past. God, get over it. War will never be stopped if everyone keeps crying about 'they got the land this way' and 'they bombed us' bla bla. Jesus christ it never stops. That's why the Middle East is so fucked up, people just keep whining about the same shit for forever. Even if the shit is important or a big deal... god... get over it.

Obviously by this I don't mean what's going on right now, but what happened in the past. Key word being past.

Okay... I'm honestly offended by the suggestion that Israel should never have been made. It's just - the way I've been raised, with most of my family being killed because they had no where to live that was Jewish land? No Jewish military, no place that would defend them without feeling... like they were taking care of a sick child or something, but instead doing so because it's their country, our country. Israel gives us a place to feel safe.

ironyyyyy~

I would gladly leave. To me, land is just land, or more technically the laws and languages of that land. So if Israel wasn't quite as pleasant I'd opt for something better. Which, actually, I plan to do in the future anyhow.

no, excuse my language, but fuck that shit.

Just because you say "well you can just leave if you don't like us genociding your population" doesn't mean they actually can. Even if they can, why should they? Why should they back off and let you have what little they have left? For fuck's sake.

 

[Saith]

Sorry but judging by Whivit's reaction, I can honestly say that he is worse than citizens of Nazi Germany.

Hell, you seem to think that what your country is doing is justified. How can Genocide ever be justified? The thing is, though, that the citizens in Nazi Germany didn't actually agree with the Genocide. They were just to afraid of speaking out against the government, whereas Whivit actually thinks that the Palistinians should be 'removed'.

Oh the ironing!!!

 

[Mirry]

I have to say that before I read this thread I knew very little about this topic, but I'm glad that I've read it now. I didn't realize how many more people were being killed by the Israeli government than by Hamas. I think it's really awful what's going on, and I'm a bit horrified that my own government is backing Israel in all of this.

And I really don't think that, "If they don't like being killed/oppressed, they can just leave!" is a very good argument. "Hey homosexuals and blacks, if you don't like us killing you why don't you just go live in another country?" That's about how ridiculous Whivit's argument sounds to me.

 

[Mhaladie]

Alright. There are probably lot of different arguments I could make and a lot of things I could say about this whole thing, but there are just a few things right now.

It's just - the way I've been raised, with most of my family being killed because they had no where to live that was Jewish land? No Jewish military, no place that would defend them without feeling... like they were taking care of a sick child or something, but instead doing so because it's their country, our country. Israel gives us a place to feel safe.

As has already been said, I think Palestinians probably feel this same way.

I would gladly leave. To me, land is just land, or more technically the laws and languages of that land. So if Israel wasn't quite as pleasant I'd opt for something better. Which, actually, I plan to do in the future anyhow.

I think the key words here are "I would gladly leave", "to me, land is just land". A lot of people wouldn't feel that way, a lot of people wouldn't want to be forced out of where they live. And it's a bit ridiculous to say "well, if you don't like it you can leave". There's no reason why they should have to.

An action or a statement, to me, do not define a person.

Then I'm curious, what does define a person? I feel like the only way to define a person is by their actions and statements. If not by those, then how?

It's not that big a deal. Unless I'm someone you care deeply about, it shouldn't much bother you even if I think you're the most horrible person alive. Since I'm just a random person, what does it matter?

I do believe that someone just said that you are "worse than the citizens of Nazi Germany". (I don't agree at all, by the way. You seem rational and you've said that you definitely don't agree with what is being done, so.) I don't know you, maybe you're not bothered by that at all - I just know that I would be. Even if a random person said that I was racist, or anything, I'd be bothered. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Zuu]

I don't understand. If you're so apathetic about it then why did you come in here and call people anti-Semitics and terrorist-supporters @_@

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

God daaamn buttons being broken. x_x

and this feeling is exactly the feeling Palestinians are feeling

No shit. However, I'm sure this isn't an incredible deduction, perhaps they should find different land to own? Wtf is so great about Israel, really?

... how the fuck do you argue with complete apathy

Haha, I'm at least halfway apathetic towards... most of this. Then again, I'm a generally apathetic person.

But anyhow, how 'bout you don't.

ironyyyyy~

Not quite, considering my next point "Obviously by this I don't mean what's going on right now, but what happened in the past. Key word being past". Since if Israel were destroyed, it would affect now.

But, even if it is ironic, why is it okay to bitch about how sad the Hamas's life is but not what happened to the Jews?

no, excuse my language, but fuck that shit.

Just because you say "well you can just leave if you don't like us genociding your population" doesn't mean they actually can. Even if they can, why should they? Why should they back off and let you have what little they have left? For fuck's sake.

That's why I never said 'you can just leave'. Try reading more carefully next time.

Now, I'm not completely sure about this, but don't the Palestinians have the option of leaving?

See, to me it seems like I asked if they had the option of leaving. Hmm. That seems a tad different to 'lol gtfo my country', but perhaps that's just me. Or maybe you didn't even read my post.

Also, perhaps this was unclear, but I actually meant that about before the war started. Like when they were just bombing us.

And why? Because their land sucks? What good has stubbornness ever brought? But you're right, it's better to die holding onto your land than leave and become peaceful. Land is, after all, sacred. Ooooooooh.

--

Sorry but judging by Whivit's reaction, I can honestly say that he is worse than citizens of Nazi Germany.

LOL.

Just wondering if you actually read any of my posts.

Hell, you seem to think that what your country is doing is justified. How can Genocide ever be justified? The thing is, though, that the citizens in Nazi Germany didn't actually agree with the Genocide. They were just to afraid of speaking out against the government, whereas Whivit actually thinks that the Palistinians should be 'removed'.

Correction: not all the citizens in Nazi Germany agreed with it. Some certainly did. Saying all of them didn't agree is just shoving 'em into a box; a country never shares just one opinion.

And, again, did you bother reading any of my posts, or just the quoted responses?

--

I have to say that before I read this thread I knew very little about this topic, but I'm glad that I've read it now. I didn't realize how many more people were being killed by the Israeli government than by Hamas. I think it's really awful what's going on, and I'm a bit horrified that my own government is backing Israel in all of this.

Seriously? Do some research outside this thread, please. Just. Please.

And I really don't think that, "If they don't like being killed/oppressed, they can just leave!" is a very good argument. "Hey homosexuals and blacks, if you don't like us killing you why don't you just go live in another country?" That's about how ridiculous Whivit's argument sounds to me.

Not even responding to this anymore.

--

I think the key words here are "I would gladly leave", "to me, land is just land". A lot of people wouldn't feel that way, a lot of people wouldn't want to be forced out of where they live. And it's a bit ridiculous to say "well, if you don't like it you can leave". There's no reason why they should have to.

Which is why I said it that way. Obviously different people have different opinions. Thus, individuality. However I feel that living in a sucky place should at least make people more willing to leave.

Also, I never said 'if you don't like it you can just leave'. Do you people have dyslexia or something?

And they don't have to, as far as I'm concerned, but a good reason for them to want to is that Israel doesn't want them there. And Israel is bigger. Just makes sense.

Then I'm curious, what does define a person? I feel like the only way to define a person is by their actions and statements. If not by those, then how?

A person is defined by their beliefs, their history and their personality. Their actions certainly help to define them but are not their entirety, nor even their base.

I do believe that someone just said that you are "worse than the citizens of Nazi Germany". (I don't agree at all, by the way. You seem rational and you've said that you definitely don't agree with what is being done, so.) I don't know you, maybe you're not bothered by that at all - I just know that I would be. Even if a random person said that I was racist, or anything, I'd be bothered. But maybe that's just me.

I guess most people would be... it just seems dumb to me. Getting worked up over something someone said, when you don't even know that person?

Honestly, though, names have very little affect on me even if they come from people I do care about (which is... a very small amount, when I think about it). It's just the whole act of name calling is ridiculous. Think of it this way: the person you're 'insulting' is probably not what you're saying they are. Even if they are, name-calling is rather low, so you're in fact lowering yourself by doing so. So, while the person you tried to insult shouldn't care about what you said, you have instead degraded yourself. ... That's how I see it, anyhow.

The fact that I don't care about what they say always leads to amusement if it's live. >>;

Sorry if I uh, lost my place somewhere. I blame it (again) on buttons being broken. Multiquooooooooote...

 

[Zuu]

No shit. However, I'm sure this isn't an incredible deduction, perhaps they should find different land to own? Wtf is so great about Israel, really?

the fact that it was their land first
wtf "find different land"

And why? Because their land sucks? What good has stubbornness ever brought? But you're right, it's better to die holding onto your land than leave and become peaceful. Land is, after all, sacred. Ooooooooh.

wow you're a hypocrite kinda :|

Seriously? Do some research outside this thread, please. Just. Please.

miss I don't know how big my own country is in comparison to the land we stole it from

Not even responding to this anymore.

good job

Which is why I said it that way. Obviously different people have different opinions. Thus, individuality. However I feel that living in a sucky place should at least make people more willing to leave.

Israel is pretty much the people making it shit for them.

Also, I never said 'if you don't like it you can just leave'. Do you people have dyslexia or something?

However I feel that living in a sucky place should at least make people more willing to leave.

And they don't have to, as far as I'm concerned, but a good reason for them to want to is that Israel doesn't want them there. And Israel is bigger. Just makes sense.

"lol read my posts"

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

the fact that it was their land first
wtf "find different land"

Wow you're like a child. "Omg he hit me first" "no he hit me" "waaaaa ;;"

wow you're a hypocrite kinda :|

About many things, yes (everyone is), but not about this. Sorry.

miss I don't know how big my own country is in comparison to the land we stole it from

I... already apologized for that?

good job

Thank you.

Israel is pretty much the people making it shit for them.

Repetitive much? Yes, Israel's a big bully. I don't see how that changes what I said.

However I feel that living in a sucky place should at least make people more willing to leave.

And they don't have to, as far as I'm concerned, but a good reason for them to want to is that Israel doesn't want them there. And Israel is bigger. Just makes sense.

"lol read my posts"

I take it that, indeed, you failed to read my posts.

 

[Zuu]

You used "If they don't like it, they can leave" as an example.

Does that say "If they don't like it, they WILL leave"?

can you note the difference?

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

I didn't actually use those words... but I can see how you'd get that meaning.

Actually, I want to state again that I meant this about before the war was started, just in case that wasn't clear. Since clearly they're not going anywhere now.

Anyhow the difference, to me, would simply be that they don't have to. The alternative is clearly unpleasant... eh.

Hm. I think the difference would really lie in the fact that to me, land is just land and there's no reason for them not to leave. <<; Really - if the Jews were given another place to live that was ours, I'd be fine with that.

I see where you're coming from (or more technically Hamas is coming from), though. I just see land as more of as a, uh... commodity, I guess.

 

[Mirry]

Seriously? Do some research outside this thread, please. Just. Please.

I guess I'm the only one who noticed that there ARE links to websites outside of this thread within the thread. I looked at those websites. Evidence shows that you didn't. Anyway, how much research have you done? You've referred to "the way you were raised" but I haven't heard you talk of much outside of that. Apologies for reading something and drawing a conclusion based off it~

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

Yes, but that would be a rather limited amount of research.

Also, just because I only mentioned one thing doesn't mean I only DID one thing. o_O;; Uh, yes, I was raised with certain beliefs... AND can do research.

And I did look at the websites, though there weren't that many of them and they tended to be one-sided.

 

[Saith]

And I did look at the websites, though there weren't that many of them and they tended to be one-sided.

The statistics that Hitler was evil are quite one-sided. (He was, but I'm just saying that sometimes, things may look biased whereas they actually tell the truth. The truth is determined by statistics.) *Whistles*


But, wait, even before the war, how would they have been able to move out? It's not like the majority can afford to move to another country.

Basically, all I've gained from this thread is that a guy called Israel kicked a small guy called Palistine in the crotch. Palestine told the teacher, so Israel decided to bomb the school.

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

The statistics that Hitler was evil are quite one-sided. (He was, but I'm just saying that sometimes, things may look biased whereas they actually tell the truth. The truth is determined by statistics.) *Whistles*

Haha. I really don't want to get all philosophical, but evil? Really? No one is evil. Evil is fictional. Hitler thought he was doing good for his country and even the world; whether we think this is true doesn't matter. Many people did.

I think that in order for someone to be evil, they have to intend harm. I mean, Hitler certainly intended harm towards the Jews and gays and everyone he didn't like, but it wasn't just because of hatred or something. He actually thought he was doing good, however crazy he was.

To be honest I find the whole concept of evil really miniscules a topic, makes it all black and white. Meh.

Statistics don't show evil. They show results. They don't even show truths; statistics are often messed up by the person/people taking them or even completely made up. And even if they somehow come out perfect, it isn't the truth - it's one part of the truth. Unfortunately, the world is not one-dimensional.

But, wait, even before the war, how would they have been able to move out? It's not like the majority can afford to move to another country.

They would probably have an easier time of that if they stopped bombing people. Generally, it's easier to befriend others when you're not actively trying to kill them.

And they wouldn't really have to go that far. They could move to anywhere near them. Even inside Israel.

My point is actually more towards this: if they stopped bombing us, they could live with us.

Basically, all I've gained from this thread is that a guy called Israel kicked a small guy called Palistine in the crotch. Palestine told the teacher, so Israel decided to bomb the school.

Ah... reduce everything to playground terms. Nice. And when, exactly, did Palestine 'tell' anyone? As far as I could tell, what happened was the Hamas bombed someone, Israel had a shit fit and responded by killing everyone. I don't recall any telling until after that started.

Also, please don't reduce an entire country to one person. Even in the metaphorical.

 

[Saith]

Haha. I really don't want to get all philosophical, but evil? Really? No one is evil. Evil is fictional. Hitler thought he was doing good for his country and even the world; whether we think this is true doesn't matter. Many people did.

I think that in order for someone to be evil, they have to intend harm. I mean, Hitler certainly intended harm towards the Jews and gays and everyone he didn't like, but it wasn't just because of hatred or something. He actually thought he was doing good, however crazy he was.

That's true, but still~

To be honest I find the whole concept of evil really miniscules a topic, makes it all black and white. Meh.

I guess, but it was only a disclaimer... I just didn't want people to think I agreed with Hitler...

They show results. They don't even show truths; statistics are often messed up by the person/people taking them or even completely made up. And even if they somehow come out perfect, it isn't the truth - it's one part of the truth. Unfortunately, the world is not one-dimensional.

True, but at the moment, everything else is opinion, so these are the only 'solid' facts there are. So therefore, thiings will be based upon them.

They would probably have an easier time of that if they stopped bombing people. Generally, it's easier to befriend others when you're not actively trying to kill them.

Mmhmm, but you were saying, repeatedly, that they coulda moved out before the war, or before the bombings.

And they wouldn't really have to go that far. They could move to anywhere near them. Even inside Israel.

But don't Israelis (is that the plural? 'Isralites' is so archaic...) hate the Palistinians? Isn't that the whole point? Religious differences? I'm not entirely sure why the two nations hate each other so much (apart from the whole land thing, but I meant before that) but, wasn't it something to do with the Palistinians seperating from Moses, or something? Meh, I know nothing about that, though, so I'm just talkin' outa my ass... Point is, religion is one of the number one causes of war, and in a religious state, if you follow a different religion, it's bound to cause trouble.

My point is actually more towards this: if they stopped bombing us, they could live with us.

See above~

Ah... reduce everything to playground terms. Nice.

Thanks. I try.

And when, exactly, did Palestine 'tell' anyone? As far as I could tell, what happened was the Hamas bombed someone, Israel had a shit fit and responded by killing everyone. I don't recall any telling until after that started.

The telling was the bombing... You could even change it to 'Palistine kicks Israel back', if you really really want to...

Also, please don't reduce an entire country to one person. Even in the metaphorical.

Sure thing, bub...

I just like metaphors...

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

I guess, but it was only a disclaimer... I just didn't want people to think I agreed with Hitler...

... I think people will generally assume that you don't agree with Hitler.

Mmhmm, but you were saying, repeatedly, that they coulda moved out before the war, or before the bombings.

I was only repeating it because people kept repeatedly mis-quoting me. <<;

But don't Israelis (is that the plural? 'Isralites' is so archaic...) hate the Palistinians? Isn't that the whole point? Religious differences? I'm not entirely sure why the two nations hate each other so much (apart from the whole land thing, but I meant before that) but, wasn't it something to do with the Palistinians seperating from Moses, or something? Meh, I know nothing about that, though, so I'm just talkin' outa my ass... Point is, religion is one of the number one causes of war, and in a religious state, if you follow a different religion, it's bound to cause trouble.

Is every British person racist?

Most of Jews in Israel aren't even orthodox, so it'd be rather ridiculous for them to hates the Palestinians for religious reasons. Aside from that, Israel isn't just made up of Jews, there are a lot of other ethnicities.

While I won't deny that people are racist, the same can be said about anywhere. It's not more common here than anywhere else, not even towards the Palestinians or Arabs or anyone. The people that are racist are low-lifes and... well... not very well liked. (My sister's school is made up mostly of racist people. She really hates it there.)

The telling was the bombing... You could even change it to 'Palistine kicks Israel back', if you really really want to...

I think bombing someone and telling on someone are just a bit different.

 

[Saith]

... I think people will generally assume that you don't agree with Hitler.

I don't know, it happens, man... It happens.

I was only repeating it because people kept repeatedly mis-quoting me. <<;

The point is, they didn't bomb people before the war, yet they still, probably wouldn't have been able to move away...

Is every British person racist?

Just ignorant.

Also: Never refer to me as British. Please. It's sort of, like, something I hate. So please, just don't. :D

Most of Jews in Israel aren't even orthodox, so it'd be rather ridiculous for them to hates the Palestinians for religious reasons. Aside from that, Israel isn't just made up of Jews, there are a lot of other ethnicities.

Yeah, I assumed so, it's just that grudges lie deep, sorta like how most Welsh people at least pretend to hate the English, just because it's a bit of a national thing that nobody else really understands.

While I won't deny that people are racist, the same can be said about anywhere. It's not more common here than anywhere else, not even towards the Palestinians or Arabs or anyone. The people that are racist are low-lifes and... well... not very well liked. (My sister's school is made up mostly of racist people. She really hates it there.)

Well, I figured the public probably wouldn't be, but the really racist people tend to be higher up in Governments (all over the world), so I guess I made an unfair evaluation that the Israeli government is racist towards the Palistines. All that bad are belong to me.

I think bombing someone and telling on someone are just a bit different.

True, that, but it was a very crappy metaphor, so meh.

 

[Harlequin]

whivit you can't say "we need israel to be safe (see: holocaust)" and then say "get over the past" because, um ...

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

The thing is: even if Palestine decided to give up whatever they have left and moved, they couldn't go anywhere because no one wants them. Going inside Israel? Please. Have you seen what happens in places where Israelis and Palestinians live together?
Again, look at Hevron.
Sure, makes great glass (seriously, top stuff), but apart from that.
What happened: Palestnians were living their normal lives in Hevron, not bothering anyone. Israel thinks 'hmm we should expand a bit more' and send some settlers there.
What they did was this: in apartment buildings, they'd move to the top floors, so that Palestinians had to go on the lower levels, and gradually work their way down to make everyone leave. Then, (and this still happens) they'd gather rubbish (left-overs of food, chicken bones, etc) and dump it out the window on the people passing down on the street.
Palestinians have had to stretch chicken wire over their marketplace to protect themselves from the filth people throw at them from the buildings. Seriously, that's just fucking disgusting.
Reminder that these were people who had done nothing.
So yes, Palestinians moving into Israel would work even better.

And to use your thought process: if you stop oppressing them, maybe they'll stop firing rockets at you.

The main point being that Palestine should not be forced to leave the country they live in because Israel feels like taking over the whole place. Again, you said they could just find other land. Where? Do you want them to go and steal land as well so we can continue this game for ever?
I think the best thing would just to make Israel move back to its original borders (where the country was more or less equally divided), send humanitarian aid to Palestine and try to build and cement a peaceful relationship between the two countries.

Also when you say Palestine 'bombs' you it conjures up images of Palestinian planes flying over Israel to bomb the country as opposed to a group of people firing crappy rockets.

Sorry I can't answer everything but I have to leave in a minute so I'm rushing this a little.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

No shit. However, I'm sure this isn't an incredible deduction, perhaps they should find different land to own? Wtf is so great about Israel, really?

And why? Because their land sucks? What good has stubbornness ever brought? But you're right, it's better to die holding onto your land than leave and become peaceful. Land is, after all, sacred. Ooooooooh.

Uh, their land is actually sacred. Jerusalem, which is considered a Holy City by Islam, Christianity and Judaism, resides there. It's the main reason the Jewish felt they were entitled to the land in the first place.

And they don't have to, as far as I'm concerned, but a good reason for them to want to is that Israel doesn't want them there. And Israel is bigger. Just makes sense.

What? Why should the Palestinians leave because their land was stolen and now they're being bullied by the bigger guy who stole it?