Rape As Comedy--Should it be allowed?

[Saith]

So, in conclusion - you do get to tell someone they weren't raped if they weren't raped. Which is fairly obvious, really. I don't see why we're even discussing this. I mean, I realize that people being raped and then not being believed or getting any support is a major issue, but saying "you can never say a person wasn't raped" is a bit extreme, isn't it?

I tried to say basically this, but I couldn't word it better than 'but what if they weren't?'

And yeah, false accusations of rape do happen often enough to be an issue.

I think what Moo was saying though was that, if someone actually felt they were raped, then it's callous to say they weren't. Which I guess is fair enough.

I mean personally, if someone said they were raped, I'd believe them instantly. If they said they were raped by X, then I'd be inclined not to believe them. Not because I wouldn't like to deal with the knowledge or whatever, but because being accused of rape is one of the worst things that can happen to a man, and it's not something to ever take lightly.

 

[surskitty]

I mean personally, if someone said they were raped, I'd believe them instantly. If they said they were raped by X, then I'd be inclined not to believe them. Not because I wouldn't like to deal with the knowledge or whatever, but because being accused of rape is one of the worst things that can happen to a man, and it's not something to ever take lightly.

... you do realise that for every rape, there's, you know, a rapist, right? And usually it's someone the victim knows. And given that quite a lot of people have been raped, that implies there are a lot of rapists out there. I think the more conservative statistic I hear a lot is 1 in 60? Something like that; the statistics I hear for how many people are rapists do self-reporting (without ever using the word 'rape', because a lot of people will admit to, say, having sex with someone against their will, or having had sex with someone who was unconscious, and will then vehemently deny that it was rape; see also recent trial in New York City where two police officers got off for raping an unconscious woman who they had walked home because they thought she was drunk but conscious. Because that's clearly not rape either.) Odds are, you probably know a rapist.

I don't understand the mentality that being accused of rape is worse than, idk, being raped. How do you justify this to yourself?

 

[Music Dragon]

I don't understand the mentality that being accused of rape is worse than, idk, being raped. How do you justify this to yourself?

It doesn't have to be worse for it to be bad. Being accused when innocent is never a pleasant experience, and especially not when it's such a serious crime. If somebody claimed to have been raped by person X, I'd be inclined to believe them, since, you know, the average person doesn't just throw around allegations like that - but at the same time you have to be careful about pointing fingers before the facts are in.

 

[Firelord Alex]

Rape should never be joked about. It's like joking about 9/11 or animal abuse, but even worse. Imagine being forced to do something that would be painful for you and you would be absolutely defenseless. Then afterwards people would judge you, deny that it happened, and just give up on your case. I know there are people who get shut out by their families for being sexually assaulted.

It's just a terrible thing, and if a comedian ever decided to go that far, I'd change the channel or walk out of the room.

 

[Music Dragon]

Oh, come on. It's like joking about 9/11? If anything, people need to joke about 9/11 more, so you guys finally get over it. (Note: I'm assuming you're American because, well, you know. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I've only ever heard one sensible argument against rape jokes, which is that joking about it makes society's fucked-up view on rape even more fucked-up. I don't believe that applies to 9/11.

Although I guess you could regard 9/11 as a sort of metaphorical rape of the United States.

 

[Butterfree]

I see both sides of the "false accusation" issue, kind of. Specifically, hypothetically, if somebody did freely consent to sex with somebody, regret it the next morning and then accuse them of rape, then yes, it would be a false accusation because in fact she did consent.

However, to expend energy discussing this hypothetical is to lend credence to the idea that this is a real, commonplace scenario, which it is not. The fact people keep jumping up to bring up the possibility of false accusations is a dangerous indicator of how disturbingly willing people are to dismiss rape, compared to other crimes. When you think about it, it's absurd how people can't seem to talk about rape without bringing up how maybe it wasn't actually rape. If people are discussing murder, is anybody going to walk into the thread going "Well, I don't think it's murder when the person actually committed suicide and the family is just trying to frame one of their enemies!"? If people are discussing burglaries, are you going to start ranting about people committing insurance fraud by staging fake burglaries?

The fact people keep bringing up false accusations in discussions of rape propagates the very, very dangerous idea that a substantial number of rape accusations are lies and encourages people to be skeptical and dismissive of rape victims who dare to come forth and tell their stories. This is bad. False rape accusations are rare. Rape is a real, very serious, very widespread phenomenon. It is not something women make up to get back at men they regret sleeping with.

I don't have a source for this at the moment, but from what I've heard, the false report rate for rape is around the same as for other kinds of crime. The amount of discussion of false rape accusations is ridiculously disproportionate considering this. False accusations should never have been brought up in this thread in the first place; while it's reasonable for it to be considered if you're in a jury trying to determine whether a case has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt (just like with other crime), it is really not as relevant to the subject of actual rape as people seem to think.

 

[Saith]

... you do realise that for every rape, there's, you know, a rapist, right?

Gee, really?
No look, if someone told they'd been raped at some point in her life, then yeah, I'd probably believe her.
But if, say, she said she'd been raped my best friend? No. Fuck off, of course I wouldn't believe her. But then, I wouldn't believe someone who told me that said best friend blew up their car or kicked their dog.

I don't understand the mentality that being accused of rape is worse than, idk, being raped. How do you justify this to yourself?

Well having gone through rape, and having a number of friends who've been falsely accused, I guess I can compare them. I'm not pretending that makes me an authority on it or whatever, and this all just me and doesn't apply to everyone, but... Well I kind of got over my rape. Like, after being raped, the only long term effects were caused by my own mind, if that makes sense? Obviously it was caused by my rapist, but afterwards, no one was forcing anything on me. Eventually I just kind of outgrew it.

A rape charge, however, sticks. If you're accused of rape, that's it. You're done. It doesn't matter if it's false, it doesn't matter if you're found innocent, it doesn't matter if the girl confesses to lying about it. It's there forever. Everybody you know will always have an inkling that maybe, just maybe, you actually did it. You have to tell any potential partner that you're a possible sex offender. You have a black smudge on your record that sticks when you apply to university and for jobs.
And I mean, this is assuming you're not convicted. If you don't have a rock-solid alibi (all of my friends do [it's me]), it becomes a sort of an OJ Simpson thing, where the Jury and everybody thinks he did it, but possibly not beyond reasonable doubt, but everybody hates him afterwards 'cause it's obvious that he did it etc.
This doesn't happen with other crimes because, when it comes to rape, it's almost always your word against hers. With other crimes there'll be concrete evidence either way, along with proof that a crime actually took place.

Lots of stuff.

Well I mean, you can't base your opinion of society on a conversation where an obvious troll spouts out some random bullshit specifically to rouse a lot of anger, can you?

 

[Butterfree]

Well I mean, you can't base your opinion of society on a conversation where an obvious troll spouts out some random bullshit specifically to rouse a lot of anger, can you?

What are you talking about? I'm not generalizing from an isolated incident. Have you not seen how people go "but false accusations!" at nearly every discussion of rape where it is suggested rape victims ought to be taken seriously?

 

[Eloi]

What are you talking about? I'm not generalizing from an isolated incident. Have you not seen how people go "but false accusations!" at nearly every discussion of rape where it is suggested rape victims ought to be taken seriously?

Maybe they do it because rape is sad/horrible, and they don't want to live in a world where such horrible things happen to 1/3rd of people potentially. I suppose similar thinking goes into holocaust denial (11-17 million innocent people didn't die due to someone's mad conspiracies! The alleged killing is the conspiracy!) and other conspiracy theories for JFK, 9/11, etc. (They were grand conspiracies! Not just some random sad thing that no one could've saw coming by nobodies that had massive impact!)

 

[Saith]

What are you talking about? I'm not generalizing from an isolated incident. Have you not seen how people go "but false accusations!" at nearly every discussion of rape where it is suggested rape victims ought to be taken seriously?

At specific cases of rape, no. I've never seen someone talk about false accusations or accuse a girl of false accusations when she claims to have been raped.

However, in a discussion about all rape, then yes. It's bound to come up. It's bound to come up in the same way that if you talk about all murder, the thought of framing someone for murder will also come up. I don't understand what you mean? In a discussion about any crime, if you're talking in generalities and not about a specific event, then chances are the topic's going to turn to whether it's possible to falsify it.
In fact, when a specific someone dies or someone has something stolen from them, it's much much more likely for someone to ask whether there was a mistake/the witness was unreliable/there wasn't a body etc. See: Every single conspiracy, detective novel, action film and buddy-cop TV show. So, you know, about 50% of our media.

e: Your analogy from earlier doesn't stand by the way. For almost every crime there is physical evidence that the crime actually took place. For rape, for realistic rape at least, there is almost no evidence at all that there even was a rape, let alone that a certain person did it. I mean, how do you prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that a husband raped his wife? It'd be hard enough to prove they'd even had sex, but the only source for it being rape would come from the wife, and so it'd be his word against hers. In that position, there is at least a teeny-weeny bit of reasonable doubt. The reason people bring up false accusations is because, well, if people are being convicted then system is necessarily on the side of the woman, in that situation. I honestly can't think of a way to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a rape even happened, other than testimony. And that really can't stand on its own, I'm sorry.

 

[Eloi]

At specific cases of rape, no. I've never seen someone talk about false accusations or accuse a girl of false accusations when she claims to have been raped.

However, in a discussion about all rape, then yes. It's bound to come up. It's bound to come up in the same way that if you talk about all murder, the thought of framing someone for murder will also come up. I don't understand what you mean? In a discussion about any crime, if you're talking in generalities and not about a specific event, then chances are the topic's going to turn to whether it's possible to falsify it.
In fact, when a specific someone dies or someone has something stolen from them, it's much much more likely for someone to ask whether there was a mistake/the witness was unreliable/there wasn't a body etc. See: Every single conspiracy, detective novel, action film and buddy-cop TV show. So, you know, about 50% of our media.

e: Your analogy from earlier doesn't stand by the way. For almost every crime there is physical evidence that the crime actually took place. For rape, for realistic rape at least, there is almost no evidence at all that there even was a rape, let alone that a certain person did it. I mean, how do you prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that a husband raped his wife? It'd be hard enough to prove they'd even had sex, but the only source for it being rape would come from the wife, and so it'd be his word against hers. In that position, there is at least a teeny-weeny bit of reasonable doubt. The reason people bring up false accusations is because, well, if people are being convicted then system is necessarily on the side of the woman, in that situation. I honestly can't think of a way to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a rape even happened, other than testimony. And that really can't stand on its own, I'm sorry.

What, psychologists and polygraphs aren't able to point to a verdict on these matters anymore or something?

 

[Zero Moment]

What, psychologists and polygraphs aren't able to point to a verdict on these matters anymore or something?

Well, people can lie to psychologists, and polygraphs aren't foolproof.

 

[Eloi]

Well, people can lie to psychologists, and polygraphs aren't foolproof.

Its not easy to lie to psychologists. Seriously, I've tried, it just doesn't work. Its hard faking a polygraph too.

But anyway, people can fake material evidence and screw with physical tests results too, so your point is moot.

 

[shy ♡]

Its not easy to lie to psychologists. Seriously, I've tried, it just doesn't work. Its hard faking a polygraph too.

But anyway, people can fake material evidence and screw with physical tests results too, so your point is moot.

Uhm, I've lied to psychologists and psychiatrists multiple times, they're just normal people.

 

[Eloi]

Uhm, I've lied to psychologists and psychiatrists multiple times, they're just normal people.

Well you can lie to them, they are just better trained to detect when you are. Its not a walk in the park, at least.

 

[ultraviolet]

Well you can lie to them, they are just better trained to detect when you are. Its not a walk in the park, at least.

not really, I used to lie to my psychologist, too. this just kinda goes to show that anecdotal evidence means very little in discussions like this.

 

[Saith]

What, psychologists and polygraphs aren't able to point to a verdict on these matters anymore or something?

Psychology is hardly an empirical study, and there's a reason that polygraphs aren't seen fit to be used as evidence ever.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Butterfree, while I see where you're coming from, I don't think the "false accusation" problem is necessarily something that is tied to discussions on rape, rather it is tied to discussions on any scenario where conviction for a crime (or even suspicion to some extent) has the possibility to seriously, permanently affect someone's life.

Points about false accusations and wrongful imprisonment come up at least as much, if not more, in discussions about the death penalty because of the serious impact a false accusation or wrongful conviction will have on the life of anyone who receives one or both. If you are falsely accused or wrongfully convicted of rape, then that is a serious black mark on your record that will never, ever leave and that can never, ever be relieved. If you are convicted of any non-sexual crime, it goes on your criminal record. If you are convicted of a sexual crime, it goes on your record, you go on a special list just for people who have committed sexual crimes, everyone you will ever have to deal with for the rest of your life will be told about what you did and no matter your level of remorse, no matter the extraneous circumstances, no matter how much you've changed, no matter what amends you've made and, most importantly, no matter whether or not you actually did it, that will always, always follow you, more than any other crime you could possibly be falsely accused of committing.

Similarly, if you are wrongfully convicted of a crime that carries the death penalty, that carries consequences of the highest magnitude. I think it may be exclusively these two cases where the problem of false accusations and wrongful convictions are an important thing to discuss, not because there are more false accusations of rape or crimes that carry the death penalty than other crimes but because the consequences of these crimes are so grave and eternally damaging that it is even more important than normal to make sure that only the real criminals get put away. Of course there are people who actually do believe that there's less rape than there is, of course there are people who believe a wife can't be raped by her husband, of course there are the "she was asking for it" people but just because they are using the issue of false accusation and wrongful conviction to support their twisted points doesn't make the issue of false accusation and wrongful conviction any less important when discussing crimes that carry consequences far beyond ordinary crimes.

Well you can lie to them, they are just better trained to detect when you are. Its not a walk in the park, at least.

Pffft, I lie to my psychologist all the time. She's convinced that I've learned how to cope with all my mental problems but actually doesn't even know half of them.

 

[Firelord Alex]

Yesterday I was watching a live stream and the guy was telling a story about his time with a girl. He told us he was planning on having sex with her, but long story short he farted twice and it wouldn't happen.

What made me disgusted was the whole time the fans in the chatroom were hooting, hollering, and cheering about rape and that he should rape here. If there was ever a time for this picture, it would be now.