Altruism or Selfishness? Which drives us?

[Mirry]

Selfishness is not an imperfection. It's something that everybody has in them, otherwise, we'd all be dead. :P

 

[Dragon_night]

I debating wether or not all human behavor and actions are selfish. And I don't think so.

Well then, give me a list of actions humans do, so I can prove one way or an other they are selfish.

I think you're overglorifying my use of love in this instance. Why would you do something for yourself if you didn't care about yourself?

Even being suicidal. You're convinced you're doing yourself a favor by killing yourself.

You don't have to like yourself to make yourself feel good. You just simply want something for yourself, I can't see how I would involve liking yourself :/

 

[Deretto]

You don't have to like yourself to make yourself feel good. You just simply want something for yourself, I can't see how I would involve liking yourself :/

... for yourself in hopes of gaining something. I don't see why you'd naturally do something for someone you didn't like. The same goes for yourself.

 

[Dragon_night]

... for yourself in hopes of gaining something. I don't see why you'd naturally do something for someone you didn't like. The same goes for yourself.

Hmmm. I'm trying to think of how to put this in the right words.

It's hard to describe why my point is right, but I find an even harder time finding out a way to describe it from your point of view. But hell, sense I keep bringing up that we're subconsciously thinking stuff, that could easily be the reason. My outer thoughts don't like me, but inside, I have an instinct to love myself, and that's what drives me on.

 

[Hawkfish]

Well then, give me a list of actions humans do, so I can prove one way or an other they are selfish.

You could make connections to anything. I could find something unselfish about anything as well. You would probably say 'it feels good' on everything I could post. And I'm not going to waste my time. You still have not proved every thing has a root to selfishness.

1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

In order for everything to be based on selfishness everything is either (a) regardless of others or (b) or only caring for oneself or (c) both.

 

[Mirry]

If you can boil everything you do down to "it feels good", then, yes, everything can be boiled down to selfishness. Which is Dragon_night's point. o.o If that's not a good enough explanation for you, then I don't know what is.

Everything that people do is done out of caring for oneself. So yeah, that's why I think everything is based in selfishness. Perhaps that doesn't seem like a particularly jolly thing, but, that's only because you're attaching negative connotations to the word "selfish". :P

 

[Dragon_night]

You could make connections to anything. I could find something unselfish about anything as well. You would probably say 'it feels good' on everything I could post. And I'm not going to waste my time. You still have not proved every thing has a root to selfishness.

Ah yes. I agree with you on everything in this quote, and by the time this debate is over, I hope you can see things my way, or at least partly.

In order for everything to be based on selfishness everything is either (a) regardless of others or (b) or only caring for oneself or (c) both.

Ah yes, but you see, before we as human ever got civilized, the only bonds that we shared were for our own selfishness. Only for the one's self. And usually, it was upon instinct that they wanted to reproduce. Now, upon thinking of it, I can agree that not everything we do is our of selfishness, but a small percent out of our actions can be instinct. Though, I don't think that will be a path we'll go through in here.

But as I said, before it was just instinct, and as humans evolved, it changed to greed. The wanting of this over the other. And that was all primitive humans were about. They may have cared for their young, but that was out of the selfishness of wanting their genes passed on. So, greed is the root of humans actions (instinct is not included because it's not out choice to follow it).

Then, as we grew, that greed stemmed out into more emotions. Happiness being one. You want to be happy. Sadness as another, from not getting what you want; and anger as well.

And out of emotions, our actions come, influenced by them. If you're happy, then you feel as though you want to share it with others, so you can all gain more happiness together. If you are angry, you might do something to someone to calm that anger, and to make you're self feel good.

Not sure it that is clear enough, but greed and selfishness is the root of emotion, and therefor the root of action (not including instinct, which could also be called 'the split decision').

 

[Mirry]

There are a lot of different emotions and motivations, but in essence, one can boil things down to, not "good" or "bad", but "good for me" or "bad for me". I suppose there are some cases where things could be both good and bad for you, but then you just have to decide if the good outweighs the bad.

We want to do things that are "good for me". It's in our nature, as animals, so that we can survive. We might like to think we're "better" than all other animals, because we're a bit cleverer -- we try to convince ourselves of how special we are by saying well, we're selfless, we do selfless things, unlike all those other animals; so we're special. But really we AREN'T doing selfless things. In the end we're doing things that are "good for me", but with a bit of self-deception we can persuade ourselves we do things because we're "good, conscientious creatures". Not that being selfish makes us bad or immoral -- indeed it doesn't -- but most people think it does.

 

[opaltiger]

I think people need to stop interpreting selfishness as conscious. No, I am not saying everything you do is a calculated move to your own advantage. I am saying that, in 99% of cases, your actions benefit you in some way or another; by definition, this cannot be altruistic. True altruism is either exceedingly rare or just downright non-existent, because no matter what the action - even if you, for example, take a bullet for someone - there will always be some benefit to you, no matter how tiny.

edit: and yes I skipped most of the thread in the hopes of preventing misconceptions.

 

[Hawkfish]

@ Dragon_ night
I could already see how you see it. , I'm just have a different belief. I just don't think every things root is 'selfish' not even most of it. But, yes some is selfish and maybe a noticeable chunk. I just believe all things we do is so simple. I believe all emotions share equal importance in actions. If your sad you cry you want comfort. If you love somebody you kiss them. If you are angry you break a lamp.

And I don't believe there is true root of all actions. It like "The meaning of life" what meaning? It's just life to me but, to another it's more.

You do what you do because it's who you are. Not all people are the same.

And I don't believe everything is run on feeling good nor is it a non existed factor. If anything, your beliefs also share a good size chunk on what you do. . The selfish only care for oneself. I don't believe most people are like that. Nor do I think they are all or most are selfless.

And about 'only taking care of children because of passing on their genes'. How come people adopt?

 

[Dragon_night]

I think people need to stop interpreting selfishness as conscious. No, I am not saying everything you do is a calculated move to your own advantage. I am saying that, in 99% of cases, your actions benefit you in some way or another; by definition, this cannot be altruistic. True altruism is either exceedingly rare or just downright non-existent, because no matter what the action - even if you, for example, take a bullet for someone - there will always be some benefit to you, no matter how tiny.

edit: and yes I skipped most of the thread in the hopes of preventing misconceptions

I think opaltiger just summed up the argument I was about to make for you :/

And about 'only taking care of children because of passing on their genes'. How come people adopt?

To have what they think is the joy of having a kid. Many mothers and fathers want kids, so therefor it's selfish. I was only talking back when we were primitive.

 

[Mirry]

I think people need to stop interpreting selfishness as conscious. No, I am not saying everything you do is a calculated move to your own advantage. I am saying that, in 99% of cases, your actions benefit you in some way or another; by definition, this cannot be altruistic. True altruism is either exceedingly rare or just downright non-existent, because no matter what the action - even if you, for example, take a bullet for someone - there will always be some benefit to you, no matter how tiny.

edit: and yes I skipped most of the thread in the hopes of preventing misconceptions.

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking, but expressing it better than I could have. XD

And about 'only taking care of children because of passing on their genes'. How come people adopt?

Maybe people adopt because they want a child to love them? Maybe they will enjoy the praise they will receive for having done such a noble deed as adopting a child? Maybe they receive pleasure from raising a child, even if it does not contain their own genes?


Perhaps this article would be useful to read: Objectivist ethics.

"Just as the pleasure-pain mechanism of man's body is an automatic indicator of his body's welfare or injury, a barometer of its basic alternative, life or death - so the emotional mechanism of man's consciousness is geared to perform the same function, as a barometer that registers the same alternative by means of two basic emotions: joy or suffering."

 

[Hawkfish]

Because there is a benefit does not mean it's selfish. It's selfish when that is the only reason. The importance is what the mass reason for your action is. Saving someone life is not selfish. Since you have to care about the person to do so. And caring is not selfish. Just because it feels good does not mean it's selfish. Selfishness is regardless to others.

 

[opaltiger]

Because there is a benefit does not mean it's selfish.

It does in an evolutionary sense.

It's selfish when that is the only reason.

I disagree! Your selfishness can easily benefit others; this doesn't stop it from being selfishness, let alone make it altruism. Besides, if your motive is selfish, the consequences are irrelevant.

 

[opaltiger]

This post would have been marginally less ridiculous if you hadn't managed to mangle "knowingly" in the first sentence. Let us not even speak of the multitude of double negatives and lesser grammatical mistakes.

 

[Mirry]

May I ask if you knowly do a positive deed, in which in doing so you're aware the the negative effect after will be much more severe, such as death, then the greedy service you've just done for your self to create jacosity, is not the reward not worth the cost? The point in doing such would be none for greediness. If you continue to argue about such, may I add that if death is the cost of such a deed, you would no longer be able to obtain jacosity from creating more supposly greed-driven acts know to most as selfless. Obviously, if this was the cause no such thing would occur, yet we do know, though rare, it does. Would you please explain this occurance to me then?

If, for example, you sacrifice yourself to save somebody else's life, death isn't the greater punishment. That person whose life you're saving must mean a lot to you, and the thought of living without that person must seem like a horrible, horrible punishment. Therefore, you decide that dying is better than living without that person, and you sacrifice yourself.

Selfish motive.

 

[Deretto]

If, for example, you sacrifice yourself to save somebody else's life, death isn't the greater punishment. That person whose life you're saving must mean a lot to you, and the thought of living without that person must seem like a horrible, horrible punishment. Therefore, you decide that dying is better than living without that person, and you sacrifice yourself.

Selfish motive.

You make martyrdom sound like suicide. O.o;;; And when you take a bullet, you don't necessarily have to die. You can survive from a wound you know. I'm sure most people hope to survive when doing this. Course that isn't always the case.

 

[opaltiger]

You make martyrdom sound like suicide. O.o;;; And when you take a bullet, you don't necessarily have to die. You can survive from a wound you know. I'm sure most people hope to survive when doing this. Course that isn't always the case.

Well, sure, but the argument still stands. o.o

 

[Deretto]

Well, sure, but the argument still stands. o.o

I know. I'm just being nitpicky about his wording.

 

[Mirry]

Heh, I'm not exactly sure what about my wording you're objecting to, but, I'm female. ;)