Religion

[Zuu]

I wouldn't call it "originality".

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Nah, you're the thirteenth apostle in our poll.

 

[Sage Noctowl]

I said time as we know it. It's possible to say something existed before the Big Bang in the sense that the Big Bang did not cause the universe to spring into existence. Perhaps time existed in some way - perhaps the laws of physics did, too. My point is that it is utterly meaningless for us to discuss what caused the Big Bang because whatever preceded the Big Bang simply doesn't fit into any framework we currently have.

What I'd like you to explain is how any of this makes a deity necessary. Yes, the Big Bang is an unexplainable event the circumstances of which we know very little about. But none of that requires a deity. This is the same old god of the gaps argument that's been abused since religion first popped up: we don't understand something, therefore it must be the work of a deity. I'd have hoped we could leave that sort of thinking behind.

So, are we using the Big Bang theory, or not? If a singularity existed, it would have an infinite amount of energy/matter contained per volume, therefore having an infinite density. It would make no sense that time could have existed before it; if time did exist, then it would have been there, not-exploding, then suddenly exploding. With no outside forces to create a butterfly-like effect, spontaneous expulsion would not be very likely.
Secondly, under no circumstances did I say that a deity is necessary, it is just an earlier idea that could fit the model. For all we know, a wizard could have did it.

Christian, raised Christian.

That makes me original here, right?

Yeah, we're kind of a minority here

 

[opaltiger]

So, are we using the Big Bang theory, or not? If a singularity existed, it would have an infinite amount of energy/matter contained per volume, therefore having an infinite density. It would make no sense that time could have existed before it; if time did exist, then it would have been there, not-exploding, then suddenly exploding. With no outside forces to create a butterfly-like effect, spontaneous expulsion would not be very likely.

Two points:

1. The amount of matter/energy in the universe is not infinite.
2. Why would it not be very likely? I still think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. We know NOTHING about before the Big Bang. How do you know a spontaneous explosion would not be very likely? You keep trying to apply logic that works now. There is absolutely no guarantee the same or similar logic would work before the Big Bang.

 

[Sage Noctowl]

Two points:

1. The amount of matter/energy in the universe is not infinite.
2. Why would it not be very likely? I still think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. We know NOTHING about before the Big Bang. How do you know a spontaneous explosion would not be very likely? You keep trying to apply logic that works now. There is absolutely no guarantee the same or similar logic would work before the Big Bang.

1. I said contained per volume, as a singularity has negligent volume, and (finite number)/(infinitely small number) = infinity

2. So you're going to completely alter the ideas of logic with an explosion instead of using the idea of a deity? That sounds desperate (no offense meant, of course).

 

[opaltiger]

1. I said contained per volume, as a singularity has negligent volume, and (finite number)/(infinitely small number) = infinity

2. So you're going to completely alter the ideas of logic with an explosion instead of using the idea of a deity? That sounds desperate (no offense meant, of course).

1. That's bullshit. You said infinite matter earlier, and there's no such thing as negligible volume. The number was finite, no matter how small.

2. I would love to know why the idea of a deity is any more logical. You still haven't answered that. And I repeat: you cannot talk about what happened before the Big Bang. Yes, I'm going to ignore logic, because it is entirely likely logic doesn't work when you talk about that. Why is this so hard to understand?

And I'd like to ask you a question. You say the deity would necessarily have to be "outside the universe". What does that mean? How does that function? And if you say that's something we can't answer or comprehend, that's exactly the point I've been making about the cause of the Big Bang. A deity is entirely superfluous; all it does is push the matter back a step.

 

[Sage Noctowl]

1. That's bullshit. You said infinite matter earlier, and there's no such thing as negligible volume. The number was finite, no matter how small.

2. I would love to know why the idea of a deity is any more logical. You still haven't answered that. And I repeat: you cannot talk about what happened before the Big Bang. Yes, I'm going to ignore logic, because it is entirely likely logic doesn't work when you talk about that. Why is this so hard to understand?

And I'd like to ask you a question. You say the deity would necessarily have to be "outside the universe". What does that mean? How does that function? And if you say that's something we can't answer or comprehend, that's exactly the point I've been making about the cause of the Big Bang. A deity is entirely superfluous; all it does is push the matter back a step.

1.

an infinite amount of energy/matter contained per volume

If time nor space exist, then there is no space, and therefore no volume.

2. It's hard to understand because you're trying to use logic to dismiss logic.
When did I ever say the deity would be outside of the universe?
Although, that is what I believe, but I never said that.
Anyways, God may be in a different section of a multiverse, of which a connection would be obtained by passing linearly through a different dimension. Yes, I am aware that this idea is even more insane than the last one. However, it seems that this may not be a manner of believability.

 

[opaltiger]

1.
If time nor space exist, then there is no space, and therefore no volume.

But... space DID exist. It was merely very small.

2. It's hard to understand because you're trying to use logic to dismiss logic.

I am using logic to dismiss logic before the Big Bang.

When did I ever say the deity would be outside of the universe?
Although, that is what I believe, but I never said that.

Sorry, that was Saith.

Anyways, God may be in a different section of a multiverse, of which a connection would be obtained by passing linearly through a different dimension. Yes, I am aware that this idea is even more insane than the last one. However, it seems that this may not be a manner of believability.

Oh, come on. Now you're just reaching. You seriously find this easier to accept than the idea - for example - that the Big Bang had no cause?

 

[Sage Noctowl]

I didn't say it was easier to accept, but of an equal nature.
Isn't singularity used to mean a single no-dimensional point?

 

[Zuu]

I always thought it referred to a gravitational singularity...?

 

[opaltiger]

I didn't say it was easier to accept, but of an equal nature.

You propose a multiverse, I propose a single universe. Not quite?

Isn't singularity used to mean a single no-dimensional point?

It is a singularity in the sense that, extrapolating back far enough, the density and temperature of the universe are both infinite. That doesn't mean they were literally infinite, however. We have no idea what actually happened at that singularity, because that's where general relativity (which is much used in explaining the early progression of the Big Bang) breaks down. Presumably space did exist, however, because otherwise there'd be no way for matter to exist. Or perhaps everything just popped into existence at that point.

 

[Phantom]

I had a taught that a deity was a unnescessary solutionto a seemingly nescessary question. Man could not find a proper solution to the creation of the universe, so it became decided (at least in the God of Abraham) that it must be in the hands of a god that we have no way of fully understanding, a god we deem nescessary to be the solution when there is one.

I can say in my personal opinion that know one knows for sure if the universe was created, or an accident.

Sadly though I think Big Bang theorists do the same thing that religion does, they make a solution that is not all together provable. Which is why I think that it becomes such a fuss. They both want to see who's unproved solution is better. The only thing the Big Bang has is that it is considered a theory rather than a truth. This is just my opinion on the topic.

The difference between it being a SOLUTION and not an ANSWER. A solution is an explaination, and answer is the truth.



I think that made more sense in my brain.

 

[Minish]

tbh I don't believe that if there are deities, they had anything to do with the Big Bang. My idea of deities didn't and couldn't exist before humans existed, and perhaps not even until humans thought them up. They're only personifications of divinity, made into a more human-like form so we can relate to it.

I know this isn't an idea that works for everyone. But I do believe there is some underlying current, some thing, that runs alongside the world that we just can't understand. Gods are only our way of trying to make it easier to understand (by the way, I'm talking about traditional gods or spirits, like gods of justice, gods of fertility, etc., rather than the ones of odd monotheistic religions that kind of make no actual sense at all)

The whole idea of an omnipotent god that created everything is just rather bizarre to me. In the end even the deities I believe in are still just human creations made to relate to the force of nature, or the universe, or whatever -- there's a reason humanity keeps going back to it. Maybe not even nature, but just concepts, things science tends to not explain; love, goodness, evilness etc.

Yeah, that's all pretty rambly stuff. I'm sure I don't have the actual answer.

By the way, I know next to nothing about awesome complicated sciencey stuff but as far as I can tell, the Big Bang is what happened.

 

[Sage Noctowl]

How would humans have created actual deities instead of deities of their mind?

 

[1. Luftballon]

by defining actual deities as deities of their own mind.

 

[Zuu]

How would humans have created actual deities instead of deities of their mind?

first, we need to define "deity".

beyond that, they exist in the mind - and that is more than enough for many people. concepts have power.

 

[Sage Noctowl]

first, we need to define "deity".

beyond that, they exist in the mind - and that is more than enough for many people. concepts have power.

So the big bang never existed before people thought it up?

 

[Minish]

So the big bang never existed before people thought it up?

No, the Big Bang actually happened.

 

[Zuu]

So the big bang never existed before people thought it up?

... how did you even deduce that from my post? you seem to be grasping at straws.

 

[ZimD]

So the big bang never existed before people thought it up?

lolwut