Altruism or Selfishness? Which drives us?

[Icalasari]

Yeah. An off-topic debate was starting to form in a debate thread, so I though I would make a thread on that.

So, are nearly all of our actions, in the end, only done to help further ourselves, whether as an individual or as a species, or is mandkind kinder than we though, able to perform acts without it coming down to greed nearly all the time?

In my opinion, well, yes, our reasons are usually greedy, even if we do not know it. And before anybody religious comes in to debate that using stuff from the Bible/Torah/Qu'uran (sp?), well, guess what? I bet alot of your good actions are being fueled by greed. Does, "Life after death in eternal bliss instead of being sent to a flaming pit called Hell" ring a bell?

 

[Dragon_night]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

Yep. I'd say greed is always at the end of it.

Giving your lunch to someone selflessly, is still in it's own way greedy. Be it to make yourself feel better, or to try and gain a new friend, not matter what, greed is at the bottom of it. No matter what age, sex or whatever, it's greed.

 

[Hawkfish]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

I believe it depends on the person. I drive on kindness. I could care less about me. I just like to see people happy even if they hate me. If I could I'd give money to charity.

 

[Icalasari]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

^ Yeah, but if you like to see people happy, then wouldn't making them happy be furthering your cause? Wouldn't it then be in your own interest to MAKE others happy, as you like you doing that?

 

[Dragon_night]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

Yeah, but if you like to see people happy, then wouldn't making them happy be furthering your cause? Wouldn't it then be in your own interest to MAKE others happy, as you like you doing that?

See, three posts in and we solve it already. So far, I can't think of a single situation that doesn't involve greed :/

 

[Hawkfish]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

^ Yeah, but if you like to see people happy, then wouldn't making them happy be furthering your cause? Wouldn't it then be in your own interest to MAKE others happy, as you like you doing that?

I don't see this as 'greed'. Greed is by def is "a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed
^ by deffintion if you don't believe me^

I gain no money nor is it excessive.

 

[Dragon_night]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

I don't see this as 'greed'. Greed is by def is "a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greed
^ by deffintion if you don't believe me^

I gain no money nor is it excessive.

But you gain something. What if giving money to whoever only made you say, or guilty, would you still do it?

And if you didn't give money, would you feel bad or guilty. Maybe you're only giving money so you don't feel guilty.

And for you definition, I'm pretty sure it's not full on greed we're talking about. The greed we're talking about is just wanting something for our actions.

 

[The Quicker Picker-Upper]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

See, three posts in and we solve it already. So far, I can't think of a single situation that doesn't involve greed :/

Pulling over on the side of a road to help some random guy you never met that you'll probably never see again fix his car, despite the fact it's obvious he has nothing to reward you with.

That's actually a fairly common sight where I live...
Kindness is a form of motivation for some people. I've helped people I honestly don't like knowing I have nothing to gain. Greed is, however, a more common motivator.

Yeah, but if you like to see people happy, then wouldn't making them happy be furthering your cause? Wouldn't it then be in your own interest to MAKE others happy, as you like you doing that?

If greed is motivation and motivation is greed, then greed is not a bad thing, and it loses all meaning. Greed is self-motivation regardless of the negative effects it may (and likely will) have on other people. It is possible for kindness to have it's roots in greed, but that would be more politeness than true kindness.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

I think the words you're looking for are altruism and selfishness (hint: the answer is selfishness).

 

[Dragon_night]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

If greed is motivation and motivation is greed, then greed is not a bad thing, and it loses all meaning. Greed is self-motivation regardless of the negative effects it may (and likely will) have. It is possible for kindness to have it's roots in greed, but that would be more politeness than true kindness.

Well then, lets say there's a scale of greed. Gaining the satisfaction of kindness is on one side, and wanting something for yourself and only yourself is on the other side. Either way it's still greed :/ You even said yourself Kindness has roots in greed.

And who said greed was bad?

Edit: Okay, I'll go with opaltiger. Selfishness sounds right.

 

[Hawkfish]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

But you gain something. What if giving money to whoever only made you say, or guilty, would you still do it?

And if you didn't give money, would you feel bad or guilty. Maybe you're only giving money so you don't feel guilty.

And for you definition, I'm pretty sure it's not full on greed we're talking about. The greed we're talking about is just wanting something for our actions.

I most of the time never see the person again. HOW can I get something if I never see them again.

Also I do it because I beileve it's right... I gain nothing sometimes. Not even a smile. Also my definition of kindness may be your greed.

 

[Dragon_night]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

I most of the time never see the person again. HOW can I get something if I never see them again.

The satisfaction you just helped a random person.

AND,

It could be because there's someone with you, and you want to look good in front of them (although, probably not).

 

[Hawkfish]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

The satisfaction you just helped a random person.

AND,

It could be because there's someone with you, and you want to look good in front of them (although, probably not).

But the satifaction of helping someone is not greed. It's just a feeling of pleasure. Greed is hording.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: Kindness or Greed? Which drives us?

But the satifaction of helping someone is not greed. It's just a feeling of pleasure. Greed is hording.

See my post. You're not helping someone out of altruism, you're helping someone because it makes you feel good. Selfish.

 

[Icalasari]

Changed the title. Thanks opal for posting the proper words.

And the satisfaction of helping someone...

Well, getting that satisfaction causes a good feeling (for most), Hawkfish. People LIKE feeling good, and they seek out ways to make themselves feel good. That is somewhat selfish, don't you think?

 

[Icalasari]

Ah, but it can still be for a selfish reason in that case. Not wanting guilt, a deep rooted need to help continue the human race (even though that became unnecessary a LONG time ago), etc.

Even if you don't know the reason, it is still selfish somehow

 

[Mirry]

Selfishness is at the bottom of it all. Even if you perform a random act of kindness, attempting to impress nobody, and the kindness is toward somebody you will never see again, it's selfish. The kindness is either making you feel good or preventing you from feeling bad. There /has/ to be a feeling behind doing anything, some sort of motivation; nobody does anything, kind or not, for absolutely no reason.

And of course, there are a lot of other selfish reasons to do kind things. You might get compensation, you might become liked by somebody who will do you a favor in the future, you might show somebody who isn't the direct recipient of the kindness that you are a good person and thus be liked, etc. etc. Whether we're giving our money away, our time away, whatever it is, we must get something out of it, we must think it's worth the price, otherwise we wouldn't do it. Nobody does something that he thinks will be bad for him, that's just not human nature. Something that seemingly neither benefits nor disadvantages a person is actually a disadvantage, because now that person has just wasted his time doing nothing useful for him when he could have used that time benefiting himself.

 

[Dannichu]

Aha, but what if you only want to make yourself happy so your happiness will make others happy?

Yes, I do things to make myself feel happy. And when I'm around happy people, I feel happy and I'm sure it's the same for everyone else. Honestly, I don't think people are as greedy as everyone seems to think they are.

For example, I think that giving someone you love a hug is a way of making both them and you feel secure and loved. If you want to rip that to pieces and boil it down to basic evolutionary drives, feel free to, but if you genuinely see acts of affection and love as greedy and selfish, I don't see how you can be happy.

 

[Icalasari]

For example, I think that giving someone you love a hug is a way of making both them and you feel secure and loved. If you want to rip that to pieces and boil it down to basic evolutionary drives, feel free to, but if you genuinely see acts of affection and love as greedy and selfish, I don't see how you can be happy.

Don't have to. You just did it for me :D

And one can be happy, even if they realize that acts of love and affection come down to greed and selfishness. After all, those actions will make the person who performs them happy.

Greed and selfishness aren't necessarily bad. They are just the driving force behind every action

 

[Hawkfish]

Aha, but what if you only want to make yourself happy so your happiness will make others happy?

Yes, I do things to make myself feel happy. And when I'm around happy people, I feel happy and I'm sure it's the same for everyone else. Honestly, I don't think people are as greedy as everyone seems to think they are.

For example, I think that giving someone you love a hug is a way of making both them and you feel secure and loved. If you want to rip that to pieces and boil it down to basic evolutionary drives, feel free to, but if you genuinely see acts of affection and love as greedy and selfish, I don't see how you can be happy.

You can be happy if you think love is greedy.
Is the only non greedy people loveless people haters? Are they the only non stingy people since they don't use people for their 'greedy' kindness. I'm sorry I don't bieleve everything I do in my life is about 'me' I don't think to myself 'What person can I use to make me happy?". I bieleve there are greater and more important things then myself. Is that greedy too?