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Hunting/Consuming Animals

IndigoClaudia

The Fool
Pronoun
She/Fae
So here's another interesting conversation that people could get into, and that is, what are your thoughts on hunting/eating animals/etc. I wanna hear!

Animals shouldn't be eaten or killed for fun anymore than humans should. We're all living being so like why murder each other for food. Yes Animals do it in the wild but they don't keep chickens/whatever in factory farms and plus, humans can survive perfectly well on a vegetarian diet. Animals such as cats on the other hand can pretty much only eat meat, and human bodies aren't adapted to nonstop meat eating.
 
i think it’s pretty hard to make a case for why someone MUST, morally, be vegetarian/vegan. i certainly respect people who are—it’s a personal choice with good and legitimate reasons to adopt, after all. but in the end, it’s just that: a personal choice. i don’t think there’s any real ethical pressure for anyone to adopt it.

as far as the empathetic argument about it being cruel and unfair to animals goes... idk, this just doesn’t really hit me, i guess. i can see why some people might be affected by it, but as far as i’m concerned personally, animals have to eat living things to survive, and whether the things they eat have a brain or not is pretty much incidental to your biology. humans are equipped to eat meat naturally, and it tastes good and i like it, so i do! you could make a valid argument criticizing the cruelty of CAFOs, and i’d even back you up on it, but at that point you’re criticizing the institution, not the act of eating meat. maybe you could adopt vegetarianism specifically as a protest to CAFO operations, and that seems fine, but again i don’t think it’s reasonable to suggest anyone has a responsibility to do as much.

the other argument i hear frequently is that you have a responsibility to go vegan/vegetarian because is reduces your carbon footprint and fights climate change. there’s a grain of truth to this but honestly i think it doesn’t really matter that much. agriculture only comprises about 10% of our national carbon emissions, and less than half of those are from animal agriculture. this is probably a bit simplistic, but to me this suggests that if everyone went vegan, it would only reduce emissions by less than 5%. that’s a HUGE social and economic upheaval for pretty minor benefit.

that’s not to say that vegetarianism doesn’t reduce an individual’s footprint substantially, because it does, and i respect those looking to reduce their personal emissions. but the fact of the matter is that just a handful of corporations are responsible for the overwhelming majority of carbon emissions, and the insistence that people go vegan to fight climate change is just part of an ongoing trend that attempts to move the responsibility for mitigating our climate hell off the corporations and onto the diffuse public. the responsibility shouldn’t be on us.

in the end i think vegetarianism/veganism is a fine personal choice but i don’t think there’s any reason that anyone SHOULD be vegetarian/vegan against their wishes. most of the arguments for it are criticisms of systemic issues that have been redirected to individuals so the real perpetrators can evade responsibility.
 
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yeah, I'm largely with skylar on this one -- more power to people who choose to live their own lives one way or another (and an eternity in the fire for folks who think it's funny to secretly feed vegetarians meat), but there doesn't seem to be an argument to support the idea that such is an inherently more moral lifestyle and that it'd be better if everyone would adopt it

we're not autotrophous beings, and it's a simple fact of life that we have to extract our nourishment from other living beings. any distinction between these living beings is at best arbitrary. plants and animals, they're living beings all the same; you might argue that plants aren't intelligent, don't feel pain, etc, but the thing is, we don't really know any of that. besides that recent biological understanding is that plantlife is quite a bit more active, reactive to its surroundings, and communitary than we've been initially presumed to incline, the phenomenological tradition teaches us to understand that we cannot truly know anything other than our own experience. can you prove that I'm not a high-tech android who behaves exactly like a regular human but has no inner life? the only reason you have to abstain from assuming such is that technology isn't known to be capable of such a feat yet. for all you know, I see green where you see red, and that's if our individual experiences of color itself can be considered analogous at all. and if you can't know the inner life of another human being, how can you meaningfully make assumptions about the difference between a beanstalk's inner life and a cow's? even if we could know them, is it right to judge one to be worthier than another? what yardstick would we be using -- the extent to which they resemble our own experiences?

plus, in practice, it's not a given that it'd even be possible to get enough of a crop yield to feed every mouth in the world if we had to rely exclusively on vegetable agriculture to do so, anyway
 
It's time for me to assert my dominance by whipping out scientific studies.

plus, in practice, it's not a given that it'd even be possible to get enough of a crop yield to feed every mouth in the world if we had to rely exclusively on vegetable agriculture to do so, anyway

True, but in reality we do produce more than enough to feed every human on the planet; the only reason we don't because a lot of it is wasted or fed to our livestock. See this study.

I'm in the interesting and - at least in Western Europe - rare position of having been raised vegetarian. I've never eaten meat or fish in my life, but I see no problems with other people eating it. Human consumption of meat is natural and healthy; in normal circumstances we get several important nutrients from it that are almost impossible to find in plants. If humans who eat meat are morally bad, then we'd have to call omnivores and carnivores such as bears, lions, and tigers morally bad, too, which... doesn't make any sense.

The main problem with meat is that its production is either unsustainable (like overfishing or overhunting), or results in less than ideal conditions for animals. Studies (like this one about pigs) suggest that most animals we raise for food have emotions and personalities, which they express through their body language. Even if you disagree with the results of such studies, I think the possibility that animals do have emotions mean we should give them a high quality of life. The way a lot - maybe even the majority - of meat is produced goes against that.

I think it would be a good idea for people to eat less meat, but on further reflection I'm not sure why. I'm interested to see if anyone here can put forward arguments for/against that.
 
The way we treat livestock isn't good. I try to be a compassionate carnivore, meaning I try my best to avoid getting food at places known for mistreating cows, pigs, chickens, etc.
However, from an evolutionary standpoint, eating meat gave our early hominid ancestors quite a few advantages, and helped boost the brainpower of the genus Homo, of which we are Homo sapiens.
Then again, our ancestors didn't have a constant supply of meat, and didn't have it all too often, because hunting back then was extremely dangerous. The hunter easily could have become the hunted, or the prey could fight back. And scavenging was risky business, too. Carnivores do not want to part with their kills until they're damn well ready. Not to mention other scavengers like vultures and hyenas.
NGL, If I had to kill my food, I would eventually go vegan.

EDIT: Trophy hunting is usually bad, but it can be very good sometimes. On two conditions: If the money you are paying to help out the local communities, in, say, Kenya, AND you are specifically hunting an individual animal that is considered a problem (too aggressive to other members of its species, unable to breed due to old age, damaging crops/villages, attacking humans, etc.)
 
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My only real contribution to this discussion is once I saw an ad where farmers were dismayed to hear that people think they mistreat their animals, and I pet my chickens and cows every day in Stardew Valley, so there's probably some good farmers out there who are nice to their animals even if they're gonna eat them :O

(please note this is not a serious attempt at debating, this is more a playful joke and a playful "of course Stardew Valley is representative of real farming." but I do imagine there are good and sustainable animal farms out there, especially local places)
 
I think it would be a good idea for people to eat less meat, but on further reflection I'm not sure why. I'm interested to see if anyone here can put forward arguments for/against that.
i think you could make a good case for this! i have tried to cut down on my meat intake myself these last few years. mostly, i think, if meat demand was lowered enough it would eliminate the “need” for CAFOs, which in my opinion are the main issue with the livestock agriculture and meat processing industries.
 
I don't think it's possible to make an argument that eating meat is somehow the more morally sound option than not eating it. Though if you're not convinced by the moral argument against it then that's fine.

animals have to eat living things to survive, and whether the things they eat have a brain or not is pretty much incidental to your biology. humans are equipped to eat meat naturally

The fact that other animals do it or we have evolved to be able to do it doesn't seem like good justifications to me. Animals do plenty of things we would find immoral. We as a species have evolved to be able to reason about what we should be doing and as such we can choose to go against our instincts.

MF said that we can't know for sure how other living things experience life, which is definitely true. However we can assume that most animals are sentient and are capable of experiencing fear, even if they aren't able to comprehend death. If it's possible for me to minimise the amount of suffering I know my choices will cause, I will do that. If some study in the future finds out that all plants are conscious in the same way as we are, then I will re-examine my position.

Greenhouse emissions isn't the only effect that animal agriculture has on the environment. One is sustainability. The world's population is increasing and we need to feed them all. While a lot of famine in the world is due to poor logistics or (even more sadly) poor profit incentive, the fact is that raising animals for meat is a very inefficient way to get energy into humans. For cows, you don't only need the land for the cattle themselves but also the land and resources needed to grow the grain which feeds the cows. If we stopped farming as many cows, that's plant-agricultural land we've freed up to feed humans. And it would be able to feed more humans than the animals they would have fed otherwise.

And another problem is antibiotic resistance. This practice is banned in the EU, but in China and I think the US, it's cheaper to pump animal feed full of antibiotics instead of actually taking care of your animals. This increases the risk of antibiotic resistant superbugs emerging.

Despite my last couple of paragraphs though, I actually don't like focusing too much on the environmental arguments. If it gets more people off meat then that's good, but it doesn't sit right with me because I don't want to imply that eating meat would be okay if it weren't damaging the environment. The animal welfare argument is so important to me that I would not eat meat even if it were somehow better for the environment.


I live in the UK where there are laws that say that food that is suitable for vegetarians should be labelled as such and every restaurant has to provide at least one meat-free option. It isn't much but this makes it much easier than it is in other countries. People who are poor or don't have much time on their hands might not be able to go to the effort of reading ingredients of everything they buy or might be forced to eat a lot of fast food. So while going meat-free is generally cheaper if you can cook for yourself, the people who don't have that luxury can be forced to have a meat-heavy diet if things like those laws I mentioned aren't available to them.
And I think there's been a snowballing effect recently. Veganuary has been getting more and more mainstream every year I've noticed. This year, I couldn't walk down the few streets near where I work without seeing several signs advertising vegan options. The more vegan options there are, the easier it is for people to make the change, which in turn raises the demand for vegan options. So I'm happy with the direction things seem to be taking, at least in my neck of the woods. I know that London isn't exactly representative of the country's population as a whole.

What I think will really change things though is when either lab-grown meat or plant protein based substitutes which try to emulate meat in both taste and nutritional value become cheaper or more profitable than actual meat. Once it's cheaper and it's more convenient for everyone to just get the meat-free option, I expect that "suddenly" society will realise how inhumane the whole industry is.

Anyway, myself, I just want to minimise the amount of harm and suffering in the world. And it's much better and easier to convince 10 people to reduce their meat intake than 1 person to go completely vegan imo, so that's why I'm not going to go around telling people to change their lifestyle completely.
 
Hi! I don't have anything particular to add at the moment, I just wanted to comment I appreciated this thread and the thoughts expressed in it.

I suppose in basic form, I agree with supporting a humane treatment of other living beings. I also do think the environment impact of livestock still matters very much, though I see some reading about the scale I'm looking at! At the same time, I agree that that's orthogonal to treating other living beings decently.
 
I don't think there is much room to say what I feel as many other people have properly stated that opinion. I will say that I do have a great deal of respect to vegans/vegetarians or even pescatarians, as it requires a certain aspect of determination to remain on a meal plan that can be risky depending on how you go about eating. I will say though that the cult around veganism and such is very toxic and pretentious, whereas the whole world viewing into veganism isn't quite as toxic (though I will say there are some pretty intolerable meat-eaters that go around touting their diet). But I think that if we all just allowed each other to make our own decisions regarding what we put into our bodies, the world will remain peaceful.
Well, as peaceful as it could be perhaps.
 
I for one will be beginning my investigation in order to prove that MF is simply a high-tech Android this afternoon

edit: lol oops I thought this thread was in misc disc and not srs bsns. my bad.

(not my bad enough to delete though hehe)
 
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I don't think there is much room to say what I feel as many other people have properly stated that opinion. I will say that I do have a great deal of respect to vegans/vegetarians or even pescatarians, as it requires a certain aspect of determination to remain on a meal plan that can be risky depending on how you go about eating. I will say though that the cult around veganism and such is very toxic and pretentious, whereas the whole world viewing into veganism isn't quite as toxic (though I will say there are some pretty intolerable meat-eaters that go around touting their diet). But I think that if we all just allowed each other to make our own decisions regarding what we put into our bodies, the world will remain peaceful.
Well, as peaceful as it could be perhaps.

Unless you already have specific dietary requirements for health reasons for example, it isn't all that hard to be vegetarian. Maybe I'm just saying that because I live in the country where things which are suitable for vegetarians have to be labelled as such, but honestly it's not something that takes so much effort that I put much active effort into thinking about it when I'm out shopping. Once you have a few meals you know you can have and can cook, you can just rotate through them and you're set, really.

As for cultlish/militant vegans, I've already stated that I think it's counter-productive because it doesn't encourage people to reduce their meat intake and it's much more efficient to make many people reduce but not completely cut out their intake than to get a small few to cut it out entirely. But also you have to keep in mind the inherent bias in which people you notice in a group. Of course you're going to notice the preachy people much more, because the ones which aren't preachy aren't demanding your attention. This makes it appear that they are a much larger proportion of the vegan population than they actually are.


Humans actually have adapted to be able to eat both meat and plants, turning us into omnivores, although eating more Veggies is better for living a long healthy life ( to be fair )

Being able to do something or having evolved doing isn't an argument for or against whether we should be doing it.
 
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