Abortion

[Eloi]

I'm going to agree with Dannichu's rebuttal to Butterfree's points, but not to Pwnemon's.

If this is true, then why are miscarriages so emotionally stressing? Not just a mother is attached to a zygote, in most cases, an entire family is. Either way, I don't believe this is the reason murder is bad either, at least for the most part.

If you are having an abortion, you aren't wanting the baby, and people who get attached do want the hypothetical baby and thus plan for it.

It has potential though. It may not think to realize it has potential (But do we know this? Late term it may) but every human life has infinite potential, and it's wrong to remove it from the world.

I could potentially have a lot of children, so is it wrong I choose not to even try to have them?

What if you had been aborted?

She would've been aborted. What kind of question is that?

You say you don't believe in the afterlife. If you died right now, instantly, painlessly, with no time to realize it,

Name a method in which that doesn't hurt.
And sniper rifle shots hurt like hell. Ask my deer hunting cousin and his (former) working leg.

how would that be very different from an abortion (in your own perspective.)

She has a family to grieve for her?

You would say it wouldn't be fair, that you had so much potential.

I'm going to go along the lines of her probably poking holes in your argument due to them being so flimsy, but that is only a guess.

But how is it fair for the fetus?

Its not, but if abortion is illegal, well, hello metal coat hanger *winces*.

To all you people who say a fetus is not a life until it's born, I don't even get your position. It's not like there's all these separate paths for a fetus to take. Either it gets born, or it dies. It's not like, and suddenly the fetus turned into a television set!

Your addressing of that argument isn't even wrong. Its...mu.

2) A second degree murder charge.

What the hell? That's a bit much, don't you think?

 

[Tarvos]

It has a fucking silly low amount of potential if it's going to be raised by parents who don't want kids. Let people raise children who actually want children. Furthermore abortion is usually applied to severely handicapped children who would cost society money and never enter the labour market; they don't have potential. So what potential does an aborted baby have? If the choice is to abort, I think its potential would have been close to zero since a person who doesn't want a child will be a terrible parent (and thus destroy potential) or it will involve a severely handicapped child (which will take away resources from society, not bring new ones in). Either way it's all right.

You're committing the great Beethoven fallacy here

Also, what if I had been aborted? I was dead for millions of years before my conception and hadn't suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. I would know jack shit about life because I never lived. So who really gives a fuck? I was dead, and I will be in the future. Either way I don't care.

 

[Autumn]

I'm in that really awkward situation where I hate abortion with the white-hot intensity of a hundred suns but at the same time I really don't think it should be illegalized. Making abortion illegal would just result in a lot of risky back-alley abortions, and that would end with infections, loss of fertility and/or death. Not good.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. There's a fine line between hating abortion and thinking that because you think it's a bad thing that nobody should be able to get an abortion and hating abortion but recognizing that a human female has a right to her body that you cannot infringe upon. I personally can only see myself getting an abortion in one or two scenarios, but I know that not everyone thinks the same way I do and that those people should have the right to do what they want with their body and their child. It's not my place to tell them what they can and can't do with their body based on my own opinions about abortion.

 

[Eloi]

It has a fucking silly low amount of potential if it's going to be raised by parents who don't want kids. Let people raise children who actually want children.

If the child is born, it can be put up for adoption or dumped off in front of an adoption agency if the parents can't pay (I've heard the counter-arguement 'what if they are poor and can't afford the adoption policy'?)

Furthermore abortion is usually applied to severely handicapped children who would cost society money and never enter the labour market; they don't have potential.

You think my mother and younger brother should've been aborted? That's very vile of you.

So what potential does an aborted baby have? If the choice is to abort, I think its potential would have been close to zero since a person who doesn't want a child will be a terrible parent (and thus destroy potential)

Adoption called. It wants you to know it exists.

or it will involve a severely handicapped child (which will take away resources from society, not bring new ones in). Either way it's all right.

Stop giving me want to get an infraction for being rude to you about wanting to abort most of my family.

You're committing the great Beethoven fallacy here

You're committing appalling bigotry to the handicapped.

 

[Rose]

1. Does this make miscarriage manslaughter?

Okay, I am going to start by saying I am pro-choice. I mean I am not a fan of abortions, but why lose two people from an illegal abortion? The thing I want to comment on here is a miscarriage is natural, or accidental. If someone dies form a heart attack it's not considered manslaughter. Same as if someone died due to an allergy they didn't know they had, the source of the allergy is not charged with manslaughter. There is a difference between falling down some stairs, or being over stressed, and having a fetus intentionally removed.

 

[opaltiger]

Okay, I am going to start by saying I am pro-choice. I mean I am not a fan of abortions, but why lose two people from an illegal abortion? The thing I want to comment on here is a miscarriage is natural, or accidental. If someone dies form a heart attack it's not considered manslaughter. Same as if someone died due to an allergy they didn't know they had, the source of the allergy is not charged with manslaughter. There is a difference between falling down some stairs, or being over stressed, and having a fetus intentionally removed.

If you accept that abortion is murder, then surely accidental abortion is equivalent to accidental murder - i.e., involuntary manslaughter.

No, it doesn't make sense. That's the point, because neither does calling abortion murder.

Relatedly, this is well worth reading. I'm linking to the wiki article, but it's fairly easy to find the essay itself.

 

[Rose]

If you accept that abortion is murder, then surely accidental abortion is equivalent to accidental murder - i.e., involuntary manslaughter.

No, it doesn't make sense. That's the point, because neither does calling abortion murder.

I don't count a miscarriage as accidental abortions, unless it is caused by some other person, like a sharp punch in the gut. If someone dies in there sleep it is a natural occurrence, as is a miscarriage. You can not stop a miscarriage, but you can stop a abortion.

Like I said though I am pro-choice, some people can't handle pregnancy. In cases of rape, in which case I think the parent can't be blamed, and not everyone can handle it. Same goes for when the mother is unable to carry the child full term, and be in good health. However, to abort a child simply because it is "inconvenient" seems like a disregard for life. It's not as if they have to keep the child.

 

[opaltiger]

You can not stop a miscarriage, but you can stop a abortion.

Yes, but you can take steps to avoid a miscarriage. Thus, a mother who doesn't take all these steps is at least in part culpable.

It's not as if they have to keep the child.

Okay, guys. Adoption is not a magical solution.

 

[Rose]

Yes, but you can take steps to avoid a miscarriage. Thus, a mother who doesn't take all these steps is at least in part culpable.



Okay, guys. Adoption is not a magical solution.

You can't avoid all accidents, that is why it is an accident. If you fall down, then you fall down. So what are they suppose to do? Just not walk through the entire pregnancy.

And I know adoption isn't a magical solution, but it's something. True not all adoptions are good, but is it better to be die then to live?

 

[Rose]

(addedum: just because somebody else might be interested in taking the baby after birth does not obligate the mother to play incubator)

You know not everyone is capable of having a baby. Some people would never have a chance to have a child because of genetic, or medical issues. So are they just SOL? I mean rape victims, and people that are not going to be able to carry a child full term have an excuse. To say it just wasn't the right time, or that it just was a mistake. Will you know what, things happen, and if you willingly have sex then you should know what could happen. If you are mature enough to get yourself into the situation then you should be mature enough to deal with the consequences.

 

[opaltiger]

You can't avoid all accidents, that is why it is an accident. If you fall down, then you fall down. So what are they suppose to do? Just not walk through the entire pregnancy.

Of course not. That is my point; treating abortion as murder reduces to absurd statements like "women should not walk while pregnant".

You know not everyone is capable of having a baby. Some people would never have a chance to have a child because of genetic, or medical issues. So are they just SOL?

Er. What? I fail to see how one person having an abortion affects the rights of another person to adopt a child/have a child through non-traditional means.

If you are mature enough to get yourself into the situation then you should be mature enough to deal with the consequences.

Why is having an abortion not a mature way to deal with the consequences?

 

[Zoltea]

I personally am against abortion in its entirety. Truth be told, if you don't want a baby, don't have sex. It's a very simple solution.
As for rape cases which everyone brings up when this topic is brought up, if I remember correctly, there's only like a few days per month a women can get pregnant. So figure those chances in with the relatively low amount of rapes, and there's very few children that would be produced from it. I see no reason why they can't be put for adoption. People try to argue then "oh the child will have a sucky life." There's probably more non-adopted children with a sucky life than adopted ones.

 

[Rose]

Adopt a fucking orphan. We are not at a loss of children who want mommies and daddies.


Because the "you will raise a child" is her concept of "sex has consequences". Aborting a pregnancy is cheating.

No one has to raise a child. I am not saying that when you get pregnant and it is inconvenient you still have to raise it. If it is inconvenient why are you having sex anyways? And I am pro-choice, psychological and medical issues give right to abortions. People that want children, in all honesty lets look at it this way. Should the person incapable of having children. You know I am in high school, and I see girls walking around carrying children, and they aren't getting an abortion, some are keeping the child, and others are giving it up for adoption. If a high school student can have a baby, when it is amazingly inconvenient why can't they? It's like saying someone robbed a store, used the merchandise, and then gave it back. Do they have to be punished now that they have returned the item?

I have a teacher who told us she had two abortions, because it was inconvenient, and then she had a child years later. So what is an abortion? A reset button for those that just made a mistake, "Opps I went out, had fun, got carried away, but one abortion and it's taken care of." You are entitled to decide if you want to do that, but so what now you can just go out and have a child later? Some times an abortion is okay, but others abuse it. My aunt does as such, and has had multiple abortions, but she just doesn't want to get her tubes tied. So, now she gets to just run around, and have as many abortions as she wants, all because she can.

 

[Tailsy]

I personally am against abortion in its entirety. Truth be told, if you don't want a baby, don't have sex. It's a very simple solution.
As for rape cases which everyone brings up when this topic is brought up, if I remember correctly, there's only like a few days per month a women can get pregnant. So figure those chances in with the relatively low amount of rapes, and there's very few children that would be produced from it. I see no reason why they can't be put for adoption. People try to argue then "oh the child will have a sucky life." There's probably more non-adopted children with a sucky life than adopted ones.

In hysterics here. Wow, basic biology - there are only days where a woman is more fertile. You can get pregnant even when you're on your period.

And haha, what? There are contraceptives for a reason! I want to have sex, but I don't want a baby, so I'll do the sensible thing and use a condom or take the Pill or whatever. I'm not going to abstain from doing something pleasurable with my boyfriend because there's a small chance I'll get pregnant from doing so. And besides, condoms are a lot more effective than people claim.

"because I want it to be so, I will impose babies as the consequence of sex"? Really? How incredibly cruel and petty of you! I'll just go and ruin my life because of an accident, shall I? Not to mention the fact that often the father gets off scot-free because he doesn't 'have' to be 'involved'. It's just the woman who should be lumped with raising a baby she doesn't want? How awful of you.

And no. Adopted children tend to have pretty shitty lives, probably because they were abandoned by their parents? Adoption is NOT THE MAGICAL SOLUTION. It can screw up children pretty badly, and adoption centres are overrun as it is. It is far more cost-effective and, in a lot of cases, kinder to abort the foetus.

 

[Rose]

And haha, what? There are contraceptives for a reason! I want to have sex, but I don't want a baby, so I'll do the sensible thing and use a condom or take the Pill or whatever. I'm not going to abstain from doing something pleasurable with my boyfriend because there's a small chance I'll get pregnant from doing so. And besides, condoms are a lot more effective than people claim.

"because I want it to be so, I will impose babies as the consequence of sex"? Really? How incredibly cruel and petty of you! I'll just go and ruin my life because of an accident, shall I? Not to mention the fact that often the father gets off scot-free because he doesn't 'have' to be 'involved'. It's just the woman who should be lumped with raising a baby she doesn't want? How awful of you.

Okay umm, to the first paragraph here, even when using both a condom and the pill there is still a chance to get pregnant. Now if you do get pregnant, even during safe sex, your just going to say opps? That is like saying while I didn't mean to do whatever I just did, so I am just going to toss it aside.

Two, babies aren't a consequence they are a result, I'll let any STDs you may possibly get be the consequence, and in the US you are required to have the name of the father on the birth certificate, and you can't say "I don't know". So if you don't know you get to guess, and they send a letter to the man, and he has 3 months to claim the child, and if he can disprove it then they go back to the mom, and say "try again". If he can't then he pays child support, and you still don't HAVE to raise this child, no one is saying "You birth it, you deal with it." There are options for the baby to be placed else where. Yeah it may suck, but you know I know people that have been through that, and most of them that I know are pretty happy to be alive.

 

[Zoltea]

In hysterics here. Wow, basic biology - there are only days where a woman is more fertile. You can get pregnant even when you're on your period.

And haha, what? There are contraceptives for a reason! I want to have sex, but I don't want a baby, so I'll do the sensible thing and use a condom or take the Pill or whatever. I'm not going to abstain from doing something pleasurable with my boyfriend because there's a small chance I'll get pregnant from doing so. And besides, condoms are a lot more effective than people claim.

"because I want it to be so, I will impose babies as the consequence of sex"? Really? How incredibly cruel and petty of you! I'll just go and ruin my life because of an accident, shall I? Not to mention the fact that often the father gets off scot-free because he doesn't 'have' to be 'involved'. It's just the woman who should be lumped with raising a baby she doesn't want? How awful of you.

And no. Adopted children tend to have pretty shitty lives, probably because they were abandoned by their parents? Adoption is NOT THE MAGICAL SOLUTION. It can screw up children pretty badly, and adoption centres are overrun as it is. It is far more cost-effective and, in a lot of cases, kinder to abort the foetus.

Well of course you can use contraceptives. If the father wants the baby and not the mother, give the baby to the father, make a law about it too if you want. Keep this in mind: I also don't give a crap about peoples' "desperate need" for sexual pleasures.

 

[Dinru]

I am radically pro-choice, before anything else.

Adoption called. It wants you to know it exists.

Ah yes, adoption.

For the linkphobic:

Ok, I’m wading into this debate here for a little bit (and I might regret it, but I’m going in anyway). First of all, personal experience does not mean I am an expert by any means, but personal experiences is what I have and what I am bringing to the table here. But, I’d like to give you a clue as to where I’m coming from here. I have an adopted sister - private adoption - whose mother was an unwed teen mom unable to acquire an abortion. I’ve looked into adoptions (private and public) myself since my partner and I are lacking in Y chromosomes and we want kids.
Let me just say it outright, adoption is NOT a acceptable alternative to abortion. In fact, the world of adoption in its current state in the U.S. can quite possibly be harder on all those involved than an abortion. To those of you that think for one second that a pregnant mother should just give up her child for adoption instead of abortion I want you to sit the fuck down and take a look at reality here because you obviously have no clue as to how adoption in the U.S. works. Let me educate you.

First of all, there are three general categories of adoption in this world. 1) State adoptions from the foster-care system, 2) Private adoptions either through an agency or not, 3) International adoptions. Let’s go through them, shall we?

1) These adoptions are done through the foster-care system. In order for a child to enter the foster care system the child’s parental unit basically has to be declared unfit to parent by the state. The child enters foster care. The primary focus of foster care is to get the child out of foster care and back into the care of the parent as soon as possible. If the parents are unavailable, into the hands of a family member. It is NOT adoption. The last resort of the foster care system is adoption by an outside party. This process can take years - especially if the adopting party is not related to the child. Kids in the foster care system do not end up there because their mothers want them to, they are there because the state removed them from a situation that was deemed to be so bad they could possibly die otherwise. Furthermore, since the primary focus of the state is to return these children to family or even the parental unit, foster children are often unavailable for immediate adoption and even if the adoption process has begun, until it is finalized family can often step in and halt it at any point. Yes, there are infants in the foster care system, but they are often born addicted to drugs or worse and require highly specialized care on the part of the foster family. Not to mention the insane amounts of state regulations involved in this system. Foster parents and those that adopt from the state are some kind of super humans. Next time you whine about adoption I want you to trade places for a single day with one of these parents. I want you to hold a screaming 2-day old baby who is in severe heroin withdrawals. I want you to be a foster parent to 3 wide-eyed siblings only to find out that their mom managed to complete a 30-day rehab program for the 12th time and wants to “try again.” I want you to watch as a state inspector walks around your house carrying a clipboard and asks you questions about your sexual habits and makes the determination as to whether or not you’ll be a good parent. I want you to have to explain to the 6 year-old daughter who has lived with you for 4 years why suddenly she’s being taken away from the only mother she remembers.

2) What about private adoptions, you ask? Yes, what about them. First, these adoptions are unregulated by the state which means you lack both the red tape and protections of bureaucracy. Pregnant and giving up your child via private adoption? The family adopting your child is under no obligation to fulfill ANY of your wishes at ANY point in this process. In fact, you may as well think of this situation as someone buying your baby. Once they make the purchase and you sign over those ownership papers all bets are off. Your kid is now their kid and you’re not even on the birth certificate. It’s like the last nine months of your life never even happened. Planning on adopting privately? Sure, go ahead and get in line because this is definitely a seller’s market. There are far more people interested in adopting privately than there are babies available for private adoption. In this mess are a variety of agencies. Some are amazing, helpful, honest, straightforward, nondiscriminatory, and open. Most are not. That scared young woman who chose adoption over abortion? Please be aware that she may have very well been coerced into carrying that baby to term by her parents, pastor, or even that agency itself. Even if she hasn’t been coerced, the trauma of carrying a child to term, birthing it, and then signing a piece of paper that essentially pretends that none of that happened is very real and it will be something that she carries with her for the rest of her life. You may return home with your cute and cooing infant that you will be the perfect parents to, but what happens to her?

3) International adoptions are somewhere between state and private adoptions in the terms of what goes into them, the politics surrounding them, etc. These are usually much more regulated, but I only say usually. There are a limited number of countries that allow adoptions to the U.S. and the number of them are shrinking. Do you remember that case not too long ago of that mom who sent her adopted son from Russia back? Do you remember how the community of parents who adopted internationally all seemed to say, yeah that was sad, but we kinda get where she’s coming from? International adoptions are a minefield that you just walked into without any body armor. If you step carefully you’ll probably come out fine the other side, but it’s all a big guessing game. You have nothing more than the assurances of your agency and the other country that the child you are adopting is healthy and available for adoption with the full consent of their family. Both agencies and countries have been known to lie about both.

Yes, there are wonderful success stories out there. I know quite a few including at least one from each of the categories. If all you have to add to this discussion is “my friend’s friend had a great adoption experience so therefore all adoptions are great” then you really don’t have anything to add.

I would venture to guess in the classic anti-choicer argument most people have something akin to private adoptions in mind when they think of the word “adoption” in place of “abortion”. Guess which option violates the rights and autonomy of a woman the most?

The fact of the matter is this: Adoption is not a solution to the debate over the right to choose. Forcing a woman to carry a baby to term and then give it up for adoption because the pregnancy is an unwanted one is the same as forcing her to have an abortion because she’s a single mother despite the fact that the pregnancy is very much wanted. Why do we find the latter so reprehensible while entertaining a debate on the former? In both instances we believe that our sexual morality is far more important than not only a woman’s life, but also the potential life of an fetus. What’s important to you?

tl;dr: Adoption is not a very good alternative to abortion, kthnxbai.

You know not everyone is capable of having a baby. Some people would never have a chance to have a child because of genetic, or medical issues. So are they just SOL? I mean rape victims, and people that are not going to be able to carry a child full term have an excuse. To say it just wasn't the right time, or that it just was a mistake. Will you know what, things happen, and if you willingly have sex then you should know what could happen. If you are mature enough to get yourself into the situation then you should be mature enough to deal with the consequences.

Just because adoption is not an alternative to abortion does not mean that nobody's ever going to put any babies up for adoption ever. For some pregnant people, it can still be the best option. It's just not a substitute for someone who wants to abort.

I personally am against abortion in its entirety. Truth be told, if you don't want a baby, don't have sex. It's a very simple solution.
As for rape cases which everyone brings up when this topic is brought up, if I remember correctly, there's only like a few days per month a women can get pregnant. So figure those chances in with the relatively low amount of rapes, and there's very few children that would be produced from it. I see no reason why they can't be put for adoption. People try to argue then "oh the child will have a sucky life." There's probably more non-adopted children with a sucky life than adopted ones.

The entire point of being pro-choice is supporting the idea of female bodily autonomy. The idea of "don't have sex if you don't want babies" basically steals that. A female-bodied person should be able to have PIV sex with a male bodied person without the threat of a potential clump of cells hanging over their head. (Also, what about forms of sex that don't have the potential for pregnancy?)

Relatively low amount of rapes? By the time a girl is your age, there's about a 1/3 chance that she's already been raped. If a female-bodied person gets raped, the pregnancy is likely to be a very traumatic event; not only has their body been recently forcibly violated, but they're likely not in any sort of a position to take good care of themselves, much less another human being inside of them who was the result of severe trauma. As for why a child can't/shouldn't be put up for adoption, see above.

 

[ultraviolet]

Do you really think rape victims who didn't report to any authorities is really going to walk into an abortion clinic and demand an abortion on account of being raped?

Do you really think rape victims are going to be totally okay with carrying their rapist's child and not want an abortion? Many victims don't report their rape because they're ashamed, or they've been threatened by their rapist not to. If abortions were only going to be allowed for rape victims, ethically, doctors would have to assume that a woman was raped whether she wants to give evidence or not - what if she has no evidence? What if she cannot prove the rape (as many victims can't)? What if she's afraid of being murdered by her rapist? What if she was raped by a family member, and nobody believes her? This is only going to lead to lots of women being turned away because they can't prove their rape (which is horrible and is what every rape victim fears: that nobody will be able to prove it and that she'll be seen as a liar), or lots of women pretending that they were raped because they otherwise can't get an abortion. Neither is a good solution.

So figure those chances in with the relatively low amount of rapes, and there's very few children that would be produced from it. I see no reason why they can't be put for adoption.

There is so much wrong in this sentence! Are you seriously suggesting that rape victims should be denied abortions? seriously? Do you know any rape victims? do you know the severe psychological damage it causes? Rape happens more often than you think, but it's scarcely reported because of this attitude! "I see no reason why a rape victim can't just deal with being raped and carrying a baby to term. They should just be mature about it and give the baby up for adoption." This is so unendingly cruel.

Keep this in mind: I also don't give a crap about peoples' "desperate need" for sexual pleasures.

so who are you to comment on whether people should have sex or not? if you can't appreciate that people have sex for reasons other than to have kids, you're not really in a position to judge.

 

[opaltiger]

So figure those chances in with the relatively low amount of rapes

No. Just... no. One in six women are raped at some point in their lives.

If the father wants the baby and not the mother, give the baby to the father, make a law about it too if you want.

Right, because nine months of pregnancy are barely noticeable.

EDIT: Dinru, would you like a cookie?

 

[Tailsy]

Okay umm, to the first paragraph here, even when using both a condom and the pill there is still a chance to get pregnant. Now if you do get pregnant, even during safe sex, your just going to say opps? That is like saying while I didn't mean to do whatever I just did, so I am just going to toss it aside.

Two, babies aren't a consequence they are a result, I'll let any STDs you may possibly get be the consequence, and in the US you are required to have the name of the father on the birth certificate, and you can't say "I don't know". So if you don't know you get to guess, and they send a letter to the man, and he has 3 months to claim the child, and if he can disprove it then they go back to the mom, and say "try again". If he can't then he pays child support, and you still don't HAVE to raise this child, no one is saying "You birth it, you deal with it." There are options for the baby to be placed else where. Yeah it may suck, but you know I know people that have been through that, and most of them that I know are pretty happy to be alive.

Yeah, I'm going to say 'well shit' and have an abortion, so that me and my boyfriend can move the fuck on with our lives. I'm not ready to have a child.

And I never said anything about STDs? My boyfriend and I are both clean; I'm not a ~sexual deviant~, thank you very much. :) And in the UK, the father is not required to be on the birth certificate. And I don't actually care; giving the child up for adoption or whatever is the magical option you'd prefer still forces me to give birth to a child I never wanted. Childbirth is not an easy thing; it can be incredibly painful and traumatising. I'm glad people you know are happy with doing that, but many are not, and abortion is a perfectly sensible option for them. I'm one of those people.

Well of course you can use contraceptives. If the father wants the baby and not the mother, give the baby to the father, make a law about it too if you want. Keep this in mind: I also don't give a crap about peoples' "desperate need" for sexual pleasures.

What if neither want the baby? Should the mother still be forced to give birth to a child she doesn't want? And I... don't give a fuck if you don't give a fuck, personally. I like having sex, and I'll have sex if I damn well please. It's a free country where I live.