Abortion

[Altmer]

I'd rather have my (hypothetical) wife's child killed if we were to put it up for adoption, because that way it wouldn't have to be in an adoption home thing. At least it never got to experience the horrible things it would have to have endured whilst in the adoption home, and bullies and all that crap that happens in life.

yes because life just isn't fair

 

[Dannichu]

I'd rather have my (hypothetical) wife's child killed if we were to put it up for adoption, because that way it wouldn't have to be in an adoption home thing. At least it never got to experience the horrible things it would have to have endured whilst in the adoption home, and bullies and all that crap that happens in life.

I don't know how many people realize this, but care homes for unadopted children today aren't actually like the orphanage in Oliver Twist. They're well looked after by people who care deeply about their welfare and health. I don't get where all this better-dead-than-in-care thing is coming from o.o

 

[Altmer]

The US foster care system is not like the UK Dannichu. It sucks on the other side of the pond iirc.

 

[Furretsu]

The US foster care system is not like the UK Dannichu. It sucks on the other side of the pond iirc.

This is why I think the adoption argument is among the most selfish things people can ever use.

 

[Altmer]

This is why I think the adoption argument is among the most selfish things people can ever use.

It depends on where you are. In the Netherlands, adoption would most likely be a pretty good option, as you're bound to end up with a couple that likes you, even if it's probably going to be a gay couple which is kind of weird at the beginning but hey. I don't know about foster care here so much, I think it's been better, but I know the government is concentrating their efforts on improving family/home situations (Christian government is involved, so this is a bonus of their antics... they bullshit a lot, but the stuff they do right here is get the social workers involved...)

Health care system is getting fucked here though now that is ass. :(

 

[Drifloon Rocks]

This is why I think the adoption argument is among the most selfish things people can ever use.

And it's not selfish to kill a helpless baby because you don't want it? At least give it a chance at life!

 

[Furretsu]

It's not a baby and it's not killing. I think we already established that.

 

[Altmer]

And it's not selfish to kill a helpless baby because you don't want it? At least give it a chance at life!

ffs it's not helpless it is a fucking insentient clump of cells when it dies

it's not like it can actually feel when it's aborted you know

also

Eve: Abortion is murder.
Dr. House: True. It's a life and you should end it.
Eve: Every life is sacred.
Dr. House: Come on. Talk to me. Don't quote me bumper stickers.
Eve: It's true.
Dr. House: It's meaningless.
Eve: It means that every life matters to God.
Dr. House: Not to me. Not to you. Judging by the number of natural disasters, not to God either.

and the rest of that convo is house proceeding to wipe the floor with Eve so yeah

 

[Drifloon Rocks]

It's not a baby and it's not killing. I think we already established that.

How is it not a baby? Just because it isn't born doesn't mean that it isn't a life.

And it IS killing. You're taking a life. It doesn't matter if the life isn't outside of the mother yet, its still taking a life. That's killing.

 

[Eevee]

Okay, you are just spouting typical pro-life knee-jerk "KILLING IS BAD" nonsense and I am going to shut this down once and for all.

Just because it isn't born doesn't mean that it isn't a life.

Actually, yes it does! Or, rather, it can. You are failing to make a distinction between "alive" and "a life". My arm is alive, but it is not a life. Cancerous growths are alive, but they are not lives. A chicken with its head recently removed may very well still be alive, but for all intents and purposes it is no longer a life.

A fertilized egg is just a single cell. Is that a life? Why? What is "a life"?

Of course, this is argument is actually completely irrelevant anyway. A fetus is a parasite by any definition you care to come up with. It extracts nutrients directly from the mother's bloodstream. I dare you to convince me that a human being does not have the right to remove a leech from itself.

In fact, the more pro-lifers argue against me, the more firmly I believe the above and the less concerned I am with where the line for sentience is. A pre-birth creature's right to live does not supercede my right to control my own body.*

And it IS killing.

So what?

Do not just throw out emotionally-charged words and assume the other party will feel really bad and stop arguing.. "It's killing" doesn't mean a goddamn thing. War is killing. The death penalty is killing. Eating a hamburger is killing. Stepping on grass is killing. Taking antibiotics is killing. Suicide is killing. Washing your hands is killing. Mercy killing is, well, killing. You may or may not agree with all of these, but even the most liberal hippie doesn't disagree with all of them.

If you can only make your point by trying to guilt the other party, you do not have a point.

You're taking a life. It doesn't matter if the life isn't outside of the mother yet, its still taking a life. That's killing.

Why is killing bad? When is killing okay? Why is killing in this case more wrong than forcing a woman to let something she doesn't want drain her life force (and her life) for the better part of a year? The fetus doesn't care; it has absolutely no sense of self nor self-preservation.

Knee-jerk morality pisses me off. You don't care about the life of the mother here at all; you just care about a blob of tissue because you've convinced yourself that "kill == bad" and you're applying that with the broadest brush possible. (Except, of course, when it suits you; you'd be surprised how many pro-lifers have abortions when it's convenient, all the while condemning everyone else in the waiting room and sometimes even the doctor etc.) If you're going to toss ethical judgments around, damnwell be responsible and think about what you're saying.

* iibui is my girl form ok don't go all ultra-feminist on me

 

[Furretsu]

How is it not a baby? Just because it isn't born doesn't mean that it isn't a life.

And it IS killing. You're taking a life. It doesn't matter if the life isn't outside of the mother yet, its still taking a life. That's killing.

We've already countered everything you just stated up there in the thread already. v_v;

Edit: And it seems Eevee re-established it in his usual awesome way. <3

 

[Valor]

You're killing my soul with your ridiculous points, DR. Masturbation is killing sperm, eating any type of food is killing something, just CONTINUING TO LIVE is killing, yet I don't see you standing up for them. For the love of God, stop using the murder point if all you're going to say is that you're killing a baby. It's not a Goddamn baby, it's a mass of cells that has the POTENTIAL to grow. Am I not getting it through your head that an apple seed is not the same as an apple tree? Eating sunflower seeds is not the same as eating an actual sunflower plant. POTENTIAL. It doesn't mean it is NOW.

Edit: Vee, you beat me to a frustrated rebuttal. Still love ya, man.

 

[Drifloon Rocks]

Take notes on how I debate. I don't let my emotions of anger get in the way of logical thinking (unlike you).

Okay, you are just spouting typical pro-life knee-jerk "KILLING IS BAD" nonsense and I am going to shut this down once and for all.

For your information, killing IS bad. Try to convince me that taking a life is okay.

Actually, yes it does! Or, rather, it can. You are failing to make a distinction between "alive" and "a life". My arm is alive, but it is not a life. Cancerous growths are alive, but they are not lives. A chicken with its head recently removed may very well still be alive, but for all intents and purposes it is no longer a life.

A fertilized egg is just a single cell. Is that a life? Why? What is "a life"?

True. A fertilized egg is is alive, but it's not a life yet. Once it actually develops a brain and a mind, then it's a life. And don't try to convince me that a fetuis can't think, because at only 3 months, brain waves have been discovered coming from a fetus. None of those things compare to an unborn baby that has a brain and can actually think. That's what a life is.

Of course, this is argument is actually completely irrelevant anyway. A fetus is a parasite by any definition you care to come up with. It extracts nutrients directly from the mother's bloodstream. I dare you to convince me that a human being does not have the right to remove a leech from itself.

Obviously you don't respect human life at all, to call a baby a leech. You have no understanding of what life is. You have obviously never been pregnant, so you have no idea what its like. The baby barely ever hurts the mom.

And a fetus isn't a leech! It doesn't just suck the life and blood from a mother. Yes, it absorbs nutrients from the mother's bloodstream. That's why the mother needs to eat more- to feed herself and the baby. Being pregnant does a lot for a mother. The connection to the body is much different; the mother's brain is stimulated with hormones and the mother is much more aware. Do some medical research and you will find that being pregnant is actually GOOD for the mother.

In fact, the more pro-lifers argue against me, the more firmly I believe the above and the less concerned I am with where the line for sentience is. A pre-birth creature's right to live does not supercede my right to control my own body.*

But it's not only your body; it's the body of the baby. Don't you understand? It's not all about you and what you want. If you don't want to raise a child, then adopt it out! If you don't want to get pregnant, then take birth control pills! Make the man wear a condom! I don't care! Unless a woman is raped, she has a choice to become pregnant, and she has a responsibility to keep that life safe inside of her. If she was raped, then so what? If she can't or doesn't want to raise the baby, then she should adopt it out.

Do not just throw out emotionally-charged words and assume the other party will feel really bad and stop arguing.. "It's killing" doesn't mean a goddamn thing. War is killing. The death penalty is killing. Eating a hamburger is killing. Stepping on grass is killing. Taking antibiotics is killing. Suicide is killing. Washing your hands is killing. Mercy killing is, well, killing. You may or may not agree with all of these, but even the most liberal hippie doesn't disagree with all of them.

Grass, bacteria, and hamburgers aren't sentient. They don't have a mind of their own. But a fetus does. Underdeveloped as it may be, it's still has a soul. Destroying a soul is NEVER okay. Warn the death penalty (see my thread), suicide... That's all wrong, too. Taking a life is never right, no matter how young or old the life may be. I also believe that all those things are wrong.

Why is killing bad? When is killing okay? Why is killing in this case more wrong than forcing a woman to let something she doesn't want drain her life force (and her life) for the better part of a year? The fetus doesn't care; it has absolutely no sense of self nor self-preservation.

As I said before, the baby isn't draining the mother's life. It's good for the mother to be pregnant. (unless she never eats anything). Do some medical research before you claim that a fetus "drains her life force and her life".

Knee-jerk morality pisses me off. You don't care about the life of the mother here at all; you just care about a blob of tissue because you've convinced yourself that "kill == bad" and you're applying that with the broadest brush possible. (Except, of course, when it suits you; you'd be surprised how many pro-lifers have abortions when it's convenient, all the while condemning everyone else in the waiting room and sometimes even the doctor etc.) If you're going to toss ethical judgments around, damnwell be responsible and think about what you're saying.

I do care about the life of the mother. I know it's emotionally stressful to be pregnant, but physically, it's GOOD FOR THE MOTHER. The fetus isn't just a blob of tissue, it's a human with thoughts. Maybe not intelligent thought, but thought all the same. I know that many so-called "pro-lifers" still abort their babies because it's "convenient". Does that make it okay? The mother isn't thinking about the baby. She's only thinking about her own convenience over a life.


Think about this. You were once a fetus. Your mother did not kill you before you were born. And now you have a life. A fetus may have the potential for a life, but squandering that potential just because it's "inconvenient" is wrong. If one day, you were given a hamster to take care of, but you didn't want to, what would you do? The hamster would never hurt you. In fact, it's actually good for you. But you don't want it. So what do you do? Kill the hamster? Or give it to someone who wants it? That's what abortion is. Killing something just because you don't want it. And adoption is giving it away so it has a chance at life. If every woman decided that she didn't want to have a baby, and had an abortion, then humans would die out.

 

[Eevee]

For your information, killing IS bad. Try to convince me that taking a life is okay.

Hurr apparently my list of examples wasn't enough.

True. A fertilized egg is is alive, but it's not a life yet. Once it actually develops a brain and a mind, then it's a life.

Just to throw a wrench in the works here: is a tree a life?

Obviously you don't respect human life at all, to call a baby a leech.

Or I just don't let emotions get in the way of logic. A baby is a leech. It extracts nutrients directly from the mother's bloodstream. What the hell do you think literal leeches do?!

But it's not only your body; it's the body of the baby. Don't you understand? It's not all about you and what you want.

Actually, yes, it is. It is exactly about what I want. I am doing what I want with my body and what I want is to not have a baby in it.

Let's pretend I contract vampirism. I can now only survive on fresh human blood, sucked right from the source. Let's also say my fangs inject some drug that makes the victim feel cool so they don't freak out and run away; however, I don't take enough blood to kill a victim. Are you morally obligated to give up control of your body to feed me?

If you don't want to raise a child, then adopt it out!

I don't want to have the baby in the first place.

If you don't want to get pregnant, then take birth control pills! Make the man wear a condom!

These are not foolproof, and I don't see why single oversights or mistakes or whathaveyou should override someone's right to control her own body.

Unless a woman is raped, she has a choice to become pregnant, and she has a responsibility to keep that life safe inside of her.

And whence comes this responsibility?

If she was raped, then so what?

Wow. You're kind of a dick. Go get raped and see how you feel about the right to control your body.

Grass, bacteria, and hamburgers aren't sentient. They don't have a mind of their own. But a fetus does.

Cows don't have minds of their own?

Underdeveloped as it may be, it's still has a soul.

Please explain the nature of a soul and demonstrate the existence of one.

And, wait, just to confirm: you are telling me a fetus is more mentally astute than a fully-grown cow?

Destroying a soul is NEVER okay.

Taking a life is never right, no matter how young or old the life may be. I also believe that all those things are wrong.

Okay. Why is killing wrong? More importantly, what makes an action wrong?

As I said before, the baby isn't draining the mother's life. It's good for the mother to be pregnant. (unless she never eats anything).

I consider nutrition to be part of 'life force'.

I do not mean to imply that there is really such a thing as a "life force"; I am merely using it as an umbrella term for various requirements to live and an approximate measurement of distance from death. I am confused as to how you think you can simultaneously state that a woman needs to eat more while pregnant but a fetus is not draining her in any way.

I do care about the life of the mother. I know it's emotionally stressful to be pregnant, but physically, it's GOOD FOR THE MOTHER.

Stress is not physically good. Irrelevant, anyway; the mother has the right to remove foreign beings from her body. If the fetus cannot survive on its own, that's its problem.

Think about this. You were once a fetus. Your mother did not kill you before you were born. And now you have a life.

And if my mother had aborted me, she would have been well within her rights, and I would not be around to bitch about it.

A fetus may have the potential for a life, but squandering that potential just because it's "inconvenient" is wrong. If one day, you were given a hamster to take care of, but you didn't want to, what would you do?

Let it outside to fend for itself.

If every woman decided that she didn't want to have a baby, and had an abortion, then humans would die out.

Well, this is just stupid.
If everyone were gay, humans would die out, therefore being gay is wrong.
If everyone were sterile, humans would die out, therefore being sterile is wrong.
If everyone were celibate, humans would die out, therefore being celibate is wrong.
If everyone were male, humans would die out, therefore being male is wrong.

Individuals are not morally obligated to actively carry on the species.

 

[Furretsu]

If every woman decided that she didn't want to have a baby, and had an abortion, then humans would die out.

Legalizing abortion would not mean every woman would have one.

Not to mention, people that really want an abortion will still get one, regardless of whether or not it's illegal.

 

[Dewgong]

For your information, killing IS bad. Try to convince me that taking a life is okay.

To me, a life is considered to be any living organism. Animals, people, bacteria, they are lives, because they are living. So when bad bacteria makes you sick, you have to get rid of the bacteria to recover. You're killing lives right there; the lives of the bacteria. That's one instance that taking a life is indeed okay.

You have obviously never been pregnant, so you have no idea what its like.

You've been pregnant before?

And a fetus isn't a leech!

I have to say it is, actually.

Grass, bacteria, and hamburgers aren't sentient. They don't have a mind of their own.

Doesn't matter. They are still living things; a life. Minus the hamburger.

 

[Altmer]

How is it not a baby? Just because it isn't born doesn't mean that it isn't a life.

And it IS killing. You're taking a life. It doesn't matter if the life isn't outside of the mother yet, its still taking a life. That's killing.

Like that other nutcase in the death penalty thread: start reading, stop posting. You havent been listening to a word we said in this thread. I think Eevee made himself pretty clear and so did a couple of others, including AK and me. This isnt about the "who can keep the Christian boredom prolifer movement" alive the longest. This is a debating hall, use your fucking brain to counter the points. I am sick and tired of seeing all this pseudo-intellectual garbage repeated ad nauseum without any regard for other points.

Oh and bacteria count as life forms, just so you know. They are classified as organisms, I'm not sure about their sentience but they are definitely organisms and if you can't kill a human you're also not allowed to kill a bacterium or a tree for that matter.

Guess what you do everytime you wash your hands using disinfectant?

 

[opaltiger]

Take notes on how I debate. I don't let my emotions of anger get in the way of logical thinking (unlike you).

Don't condescend. It makes you look far less mature than you think.

Anyway, answer me this. If abortion is killing a human being, and it is unlawful, it would be classified as murder, yes? Would you charge women who had abortions done illegally with murder? For that matter, would you call a miscarriage manslaughter?

 

[Drifloon Rocks]

A miscarriage isn't the mother's fault. How is killing the baby while its in the womb different from it being outside? It's still a baby.

I don't know. It seems that everyone else here likes the idea of killing babies. There's nothing I can do about it. And since I'm the only one that actually believes killing babies is wrong, you have no more reason to argue. Go get pregnant and kill your babies for all I care. >:(

 

[Valor]

OH BOO HOO I'M THE ONLY ONE HERE WITH MORALS.

Stop being a pompous little ass. You're not convincing anybody with your points because you're not actually debating. You're just repeating the same thing over and over without even listening to the other side. You're only hoping for people who agree with you and that is rather desperate. Just stop now, you've lost.