Constructed languages

[donotlookatdiagram]

I'm just curious. What are conlangs used for? Other than just having some mysterious dialog here and there? I've heard of naming cities using it, but it always comes off as a bit much to me, coming up with a whole phonetic system, grammar, and vocabulary just so that you can hide some plot here and there.

Also, what do you think of pronunciation guides? In true ironic fashion, I've come up with a phonology myself, and it has many sounds that native English speakers don't know how to make, for example, a voiceless bilabial fricative (IPA: ɸ), which, to a native English speaker, sounds like f, a labiodental fricative. Since this would be mainly a written language, the transliteration system I've come up with differentiates the two (fh for ɸ, and f for the English f sound), but a reader night hear it differently in their head (especially since I used "dh" for ð, equivalent to the "th" in "the" or "this", rather than the standard dʰ that usually denotes, rendered as d by English speakers) and possibly get a wrong idea of how the language is supposed to sound. Also my transliteration system, it looks terrible. I used the letter h as king of a modifying letter, which often can lead to words like rhihth (IPA: 'ɻɪθ) means tree, where rit' (stone) results in 'ritʰ in IPA. By far the worst looking word I have is dhaihfhischa, meaning mansion. (ðɑ.ɪ.'ɸi.ɕɑ)

Of course, I know some people just relex English with some words they think sound cool and call it a day, but that always comes off as extremely lazy to me. So I took the hard route. What are your thoughts on the use of conlangs?

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

I don't think it's a case of "hide some plot here and there". The point is to make the setting seem organic, like it developed over millennia like our society did. Also, I don't get why you dismiss "just having some mysterious dialog here and there". There are plenty of English-language novels set in the real world that includes non-English dialogue because there's non-English-speaking people in the world. Again, the point is to make the setting seem like a place that could exist within the confines of its own internal logic. Unless that's a key point of the setting, it's somewhat unlikely any world would only have one language.

 

[donotlookatdiagram]

I don't think it's a case of "hide some plot here and there". The point is to make the setting seem organic, like it developed over millennia like our society did. Also, I don't get why you dismiss "just having some mysterious dialog here and there". There are plenty of English-language novels set in the real world that includes non-English dialogue because there's non-English-speaking people in the world. Again, the point is to make the setting seem like a place that could exist within the confines of its own internal logic. Unless that's a key point of the setting, it's somewhat unlikely any world would only have one language.

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is: why come up with your own language, with its own grammar, sound system, and sometimes its own writing system, just so you can write a few lines here and there, when there are actual languages that can serve the same purpose? Say you have two characters speaking language A, rendered as English in a book. Then you have a character come in speaking language B, rendered as, say, French. Certainly you can say that it's not really French, just like the English in the book is not really English.

 

[sovram]

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is: why come up with your own language, with its own grammar, sound system, and sometimes its own writing system, just so you can write a few lines here and there, when there are actual languages that can serve the same purpose? Say you have two characters speaking language A, rendered as English in a book. Then you have a character come in speaking language B, rendered as, say, French. Certainly you can say that it's not really French, just like the English in the book is not really English.

I think the reader can understand an alien language being rendered as English. They'll accept that, because they need it to be in English to read it. But if we're in a grand fantasy world, and then the elves start speaking French ... well, it breaks the illusion a little bit, don't you think?

Plus, plenty of people think language construction is fun in and of itself. Like me.

 

[Butterfree]

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is: why come up with your own language, with its own grammar, sound system, and sometimes its own writing system, just so you can write a few lines here and there, when there are actual languages that can serve the same purpose? Say you have two characters speaking language A, rendered as English in a book. Then you have a character come in speaking language B, rendered as, say, French. Certainly you can say that it's not really French, just like the English in the book is not really English.

Think of it like a regular translated book. If it's been translated into English, then its main language will have been translated into English, but any other languages spoken in it will presumably be left alone, unless it's actually being localized, i.e. modified to literally take place in an English-speaking country and reference different foreign countries and languages than the original did. A non-localized translation would never just turn one language into another.

Similarly, if you "translate" the language of your fantasy narrator into English, any other languages spoken in the world that can't be translated into English would be left intact, not randomly translated into some third language.

 

[kyeugh]

Just look at Eragon. The book would have been okay without it, but it adds that sense that their world is every bit as vast as ours. Perhaps it's not as necessary as it is interesting. See also: world building.

 

[Vipera Magnifica]

I'm assuming this discussion primarily focuses on constructed languages, but what about colloquial languages like Nadsat and Newspeak? These really breath life into a story. Doubleplusgood.

 

[Phoenixsong]

One of my current projects actually is using existing languages as stand-ins for conlangs, but I readily admit that it's because I was lazy didn't feel like putting in the effort for this project rather than because I think conlangs themselves are pointless—far from it. Language construction is very interesting and in fact a different project of mine is going to have at least one or two conlangs if I can help it; the latter is also a more "serious" project, if you will, and so in addition to the interest value it's also more important to me that it feel more cohesive. The former, sure, it'd be nice, but I don't care as much because it's a silly fanfic.

There's also the fact that I'm only using names from those languages in the sillier project rather than actually writing any dialogue in those languages. Still a little jarring, sure, but hopefully not as jarring as if one of the characters suddenly dropped a few sentences in Mongolian or something. TBH I could probably change my mind and throw together some rudimentary naming languages instead—and I guess there's still a tiny chance that I might—but I've become rather attached to the names as they are and I'm at the point where I think it'd be too big an adjustment for me. Eh.

I'd think that in most cases it would be a better decision to avoid a conlang simply by not writing any dialogue in the foreign language at all as opposed to making an extra/unnatural substitution. (Even then you'd still probably want a naming language, but those are much simpler than full-blown conlangs with large vocabularies and everything else that comes with.) Surely there are acceptable ways to say that characters are having a conversation in a language another character doesn't understand without actually going through all the "useless effort" of inventing that language, and in fact that would be easier than trying to convince people that French is an alien language anyway.

 

[donotlookatdiagram]

I'm assuming this discussion primarily focuses on constructed languages, but what about colloquial languages like Nadsat and Newspeak? These really breath life into a story. Doubleplusgood.

Those are't really languages in the sense that they are more just a different way of speaking English. Newspeak is kind of a sterilized version of English, where as Nadsat is more of a Russian- English creole, which is technically a language, but isn't treated as one.

 

[1. Luftballon]

Those are't really languages in the sense that they are more just a different way of speaking English. Newspeak is kind of a sterilized version of English, where as Nadsat is more of a Russian- English creole, which is technically a language, but isn't treated as one.

newspeak's features per appendix make it about as much a distinct language from english as the chinese languages are distinct, and, well, it has an army and navy, at least according to the propaganda.