Dies Twice Mafia - Game Thread

[mewtini]

hm, but i guess that would be kind of weird in a setup like this, we didd talk about it d1

 

[kyeugh]

what the damn hell

 

[Butterfree]

Hmmm.

Well, in the night I somehow gained an additional life, and the flavor implied I’d been jailkept (I attempted to inspect Stryke, but got no result). I’m assuming probably the jailkeeper is also what gave me the extra life, because otherwise I got no flavor relating to the extra life bit; the flavor indicated my ‘new security personnel’ is very bothersome and stopping me from getting anything done, which might imply it’s the new body double that’s doing it. (Which… might mean that I’m just blocked from receiving results again until I lose the new life, in which case oof, and also this might in fact have been the mafia using their action to disable me via extra life instead of killing me?)

 

[Butterfree]

With regards to RNP, I’m guessing the mafia has some sort of power that prevents someone’s flip from being revealed if they die. Either they used it on him having correctly predicted a vig would target RNP (reasonable but lucky), or they killed him themselves, figuring he was a lost cause and by ensuring his flip was obscured they could cast doubt on me (bit more galaxy-brain, opens the question of whether trying to kill me would have been easier). Potentially, this no-flip power could be a modifier they can only apply to their own kill rather than something they can target independently, in which case they would’ve had to choose between trying to kill me and obscuring RNP’s flip? And then they figured they could also disable me so why not?

 

[Stryke]

Hmmm.

Well, in the night I somehow gained an additional life, and the flavor implied I’d been jailkept (I attempted to inspect Stryke, but got no result). I’m assuming probably the jailkeeper is also what gave me the extra life, because otherwise I got no flavor relating to the extra life bit; the flavor indicated my ‘new security personnel’ is very bothersome and stopping me from getting anything done, which might imply it’s the new body double that’s doing it. (Which… might mean that I’m just blocked from receiving results again until I lose the new life, in which case oof, and also this might in fact have been the mafia using their action to disable me via extra life instead of killing me?)

Huh... Is it possible that in this game, instead of a doctor (or equivalent role) blocking any kills directed at a target, they just give their target an extra life no matter what? So even if the heal target also got targeted with a kill, the net loss of lives would be zero? Because out of everyone left, you would make the most sense to target with a heal last night

 

[Butterfree]

Well, there’s pretty much no way we have a regular doctor that just gives out an extra life to whoever they target, because then the expected number of players doesn’t change in the night until the doctor fully goes down, right? Even if they can’t heal someone beyond two lives, all they have to do is keep healing whoever lost a life last night and the mafia will never manage to kill anyone.

 

[Butterfree]

Potentially it’s a one-off someone has, or else a mafia power that they’d only use when they determine it’s advantageous to them.

 

[Stryke]

Right, it would be way too busted a power for it not to be limited use. I'm having a really hard time buying that this would be a mafia power though; sure it could be advantageous to them in some scenarios, but it goes directly against their wincon

 

[Stryke]

if nothing else i can try to prove myself through the night action i'm abt to gain access to

i have a role that doesn't do anything until i lose a life, at which point it becomes much more dangerous.

I have a theory

 

[Butterfree]

Yes?

 

[Stryke]

My bad I guess it wasn't as clear as I thought.

Based on what little he said last night I have reason to think RNP was probably behind Bfree gaining a life. He mentioned that he has a role which becomes "dangerous" after his first life goes down, and that he would try to use it to clear his name last night. A role which grants lives back to other players certainly fits the bill for a powerful and potentially dangerous role that would be locked behind losing a life, and if you're getting tunneled hard as scum, what better way to show your innocence than protect a person valuable to town who at the time seemed most likely to get merc'd in the night?

Clearly this gamble didn't work though; scum must've seen Bfree as too easy of a target and hemce too much risk attached since she would be prime candidate for a heal, and we're now down our only way to search out other scum players as a result. It does beg the question of why not use this on, say, mewtini instead, since she was also confirmed town both by getting nightkilled and through Bfrees investigation, but if I had to guess I'd say he probably wanted to go for a bigger result; at the time, Bfree was seen as a much bigger risk of getting nightkilled than mewt was

This is all based on anecdotal evidence, so I could be way off, and if anyone else wants to own up to the whole life-granting power go right ahead. I just really don't think this was a mafia thing... Sure, granting Bfree a life disables her cop powers, but you could also do that by just killing her instead

 

[Butterfree]

I really don't think it makes a lot of sense for a town RNP to describe his role as "becoming dangerous" when he loses a life if what it does is give him a one-shot ability to give someone a life back. The use of "becoming" kind of suggests the additional power isn't a one-time thing (it suggests the role goes from being one thing to being another), and the use of "dangerous" is not at all the first word I'd think of to describe a healing power.

Also, RNP was a redcheck and I still think he was just mafia. I don't think we've been given any very convincing reason not to think he was just mafia (best is "he died", but his death is suspect at best given the whole no-flip thing, which practically has to be caused by some kind of scum power because preventing town from learning info on death is pretty much the most straightforwardly 100% deeply anti-town power I can imagine in a game of mafia; the most generous interpretation I could think of would be if he was some kind of miller-esque role with that as a passive, but then I would have thought he'd tell us that when he got redchecked). The fact you're sort of going with RNP being town as your default assumption here is just making me trust you less.

 

[Butterfree]

Well, specifically, I would usually expect in a game where the results might be scrambled that they would simply not mention who is being examined - instead, they'd just return a result, and it's the player who has to make an assumption when they connect that result to the person they actually targeted. So the choice to not go for simply giving a result, but explicitly giving a name, was noteworthy to me. Not saying it's impossible they could still be scrambled and misleading, but it does make me less inclined to think so.

As a mild counterpoint, something that occurred to me reading my night action non-result is that potentially the explanation for the results explicitly specifying who they're for could just be that normally this role is expected to return results potentially on a several-night delay, so explaining exactly which results I'm getting makes sense, even if they might have been scrambled somehow. So probably discard this line of reasoning for doubting the possibility of bus drivers, etc. I still think RNP was just legitimately mafia, though.

 

[Butterfree]

I could just be tunneling/confbiasing here, I feel like everything I'm seeing right now is just further confirmation that the mafia was RNP and Stryke which was already what I thought, but at least that's where I'm at at this point. Would love to hear what others think about all this, though, if I'm way in a tunnel.

 

[Butterfree]

And then they figured they could also disable me so why not?

I took a look at my role PM and the exact phrasing used probably suggests it is indeed the case that Receipts is disabled if I gain a life back (I have also asked for clarification). However, I also looked back and the way I described my power when I claimed did not make it sound like it would be disabled if I gained another life:

So yes, I'm cop, and I have an actual redcheck on RNP. Specifically, I have a power called "File Accounts", which lets me target a player but has no immediate effect, and then once I'd used up my first life, I gained an additional passive power "Receipts", which at the end of the night will show me the alignment of a player I have previously targeted with File Accounts, in the order in which I targeted them (this power is specified to be unblockable).

This could be a point against the extra life being a mafia power deployed to disable me, if it meant they should not have known it would disable the power - however, it's also possible that 1) the mafia has an extra-life power and its description just plain suggests that it will disable any powers acquired upon having one life remaining, so that the mafia deduced from there that this would apply to my power as I'd described it, even if my description hadn't suggested it directly; or 2) the mafia itself has additional powers activated with one life left, and they figured from there that this was how they worked (or asked for clarification) and that probably similar townie powers would be the same. So, while it may be a mild point against the extra life as a mafia power, I think it's a pretty mild one and continue to think it's plausible that they could have this power, as something they could deploy situationally to disable power roles.

 

[Dodge]

I think RNP being mafia is probably the simplest explanation, rather than him being town AND there being some kind of alignment scrambler for inspections (we can probably assume there's something wacky relating to that, with the lack of flip, but not necessarily for inspections)
I don't know about Stryke being mafia as well, but I can see your logic with how RNP was defending him
Then again, "I trust the experienced, practically confirmed town player's intuition" is hardly a hot take, so call me neutral on Stryke being mafia

 

[kyeugh]

i'm so scared of sheeping you, but i honestly can't think of a better explanation for the lack of flip on rnp. i agree with your assessment that the flip silencing is deeply anti-town and must have been done by scum.

i guess there are two possibilities i see here - first is that maybe you're right and it really is just stryke. potentially he felt like he was probably fucked anyway but that a red flip from rnp would totally bury him considering you basically said as much yesterday, so might as well do what he can. however, in a situation where stryke is not mafia, it might still be worthwhile to obscure rnp's flip in order to put us on stryke's ass rather than finding the actual remaining wolf/wolves.

i think it's possible someone had a one-shot life restoring power or similar and just used it on you because you're cop and we all thought you were going to die without really realizing that doing so would block your results.

 

[kyeugh]

i don't really think stryke's theory makes any sense but the boldness of coming out the gate theorizing on rnp's towniness in this situation when doing that is precisely what attracted your suspicion to him is bold enough that it's honestly a little harder for me to imagine it coming from paranoid mafia than from town.

 

[mewtini]

i don't really think stryke's theory makes any sense but the boldness of coming out the gate theorizing on rnp's towniness in this situation when doing that is precisely what attracted your suspicion to him is bold enough that it's honestly a little harder for me to imagine it coming from paranoid mafia than from town.

this is where i’m at too

 

[mewtini]

ok

i actually don’t think there’s a reason for me to hide it, i thought about this for more than 2 seconds. i was the one who protected butterfree! it was indeed a one-shot, but my role also says literally nothing about any sort of effect other than granting my target an extra life so idk wtf is happening there. it’s interesting that the flavor butterfree mentioned suggested that it happened as a side-effect of the heal itself because unless my role literally just lied by omission i feel like it must have been someone other than me