D/P/Pt Incomplete nearly-random Platinum team

[Mad MOAI]

As the title mentions, I still need another member for this competitive team, since I've devised and obtained five. I'd prefer a wall or staller of some sort, since this team is mainly sweepers. I was thinking a Skarmory with Fly, Toxic and two other moves, since I used one in the Battle Factory and it worked really well until I came across an Aggron. With this team, my weakness would be Steel-types, so I was also thinking of a Dewgong or Walrein. I've heard Dewgong's a good wall, which would add to the variety of my team as well as protect against the Steel-types that a Skarmory always seems to be sent out against.


Lucian (M) @ Wise Glasses
Modest, Synchronize
EPs: 252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-Magical Leaf
-Psychic
-Focus Blast
-Calm Mind
~~Lucian's Calm Mind can be replaced with another move, since he doesn't use it much, so I'm taking suggestions. Magical Leaf's total damage is iffy, so if anyone has other suggestions, that would be fine as well. His main purpose as a lead is to sweep with Psychic, although Focus Blast has failed me a few times because of its low accuracy.



William (M) @ Toxic Orb
Jolly, Frisk
EPs: 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-Shadow Claw
-Sucker Punch
-Facade
-Embargo
~~William could also hold a Spell Tag instead of a Toxic Orb and know Faint Attack instead of Facade, but I noticed that he has a weakness against Dark-types if I do that. I also need an idea on what other EPs to give him, since I'm not sure how much he needs Speed since he has a Quiet nature.



(M) @ Focus Sash
Adamant, Guts
EPs: 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-Rock Slide
-Earthquake
-Revenge
-Submission
~~I'm wondering what I should do about his Guts ability, since it might only help him out if the enemy inflicts a status problem, which could be uncommon since they'd guess he has the ability from the start.



Shenandoah (M) @ Razor Claw
Adamant, Sniper
EPs: 252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-Outrage
-Waterfall
-Rain Dance
-Dragon Dance
~~An average double-dancer Kingdra, although I'm not sure how much time he'll have to Dance in-battle. I was also thinking of giving him the Razor Claw instead of the Dragon Fang, since it would give a higher chance of Sniper activating, and I'm guessing that lets him deal a bit more damage with critical hits.



Kin Tsuchi (F) @ Metal Coat
Adamant, Intimidate
EPs: 252 Atk, 128 Def, 108 SpDef
-Iron Head
-Crunch / Ice Punch
-Iron Defense
-Baton Pass
~~Iron Head is fine for STAB, I think, and the Iron Defense/Baton Pass combination is for if Kin needs higher defense for some reason, or there's another member of my team who needs to defend against a physical sweeper or something like that. The Metal Coat item can be replaced, though. I'm wondering if I'll be relying on her pure-Steel typing too much as a switch-in to Lucian, when she's not the one who's supposed to be the lead here. I'm currently stuck between Crunch and Ice Punch, since the former has more power and a chance to lower Defense but the latter has better coverage and a freezing bonus.


I'm not the best at forming competitive teams.

 

[Darksong]

Comments in bold.

As the title mentions, I still need another member for this competitive team, since I've devised and obtained five. I'd prefer a wall or staller of some sort, since this team is mainly sweepers. I was thinking a Skarmory with Fly, Toxic and two other moves, since I used one in the Battle Factory and it worked really well until I came across an Aggron. With this team, my weakness would be Steel-types, so I was also thinking of a Dewgong or Walrein. I've heard Dewgong's a good wall, which would add to the variety of my team as well as protect against the Steel-types that a Skarmory always seems to be sent out against.


Lucian (M) @ Wise Glasses
Modest, Synchronize
EPs: 252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-Magical Leaf
-Psychic
-Focus Blast
-Calm Mind
~~Lucian's Calm Mind can be replaced with another move, since he doesn't use it much, so I'm taking suggestions. Magical Leaf's total damage is iffy, so if anyone has other suggestions, that would be fine as well. His main purpose as a lead is to sweep with Psychic, although Focus Blast has failed me a few times because of its low accuracy.



William (M) @ Toxic Orb
Adamant, Frisk
EPs: 252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
-Shadow Claw
-Sucker Punch
-Facade
-Embargo
~~William could also hold a Spell Tag instead of a Toxic Orb and know Faint Attack instead of Facade, but I noticed that he has a weakness against Dark-types if I do that. I also need an idea on what other EPs to give him, since I'm not sure how much he needs Speed since he has a Quiet nature.

Quiet nature does horribly on physical sweepers, frankly. But keep Toxic Orb for Facade. Alternatively, if you don't like the fact that it badly poisons him, give him a Life Orb and Will-o-Wisp.



(M) @ Focus Sash
Adamant, Guts
EPs: 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
*Need suggestions for moves
Current set (non-competitive):
-Rock Slide
-Earthquake
-Revenge
-Submission
~~Like mentioned, I need suggestions for which moves I should keep and which ones I should replace. I'm also wondering what I should do about his Guts ability, since it might only help him out if the enemy inflicts a status problem, which could be uncommon since they'd guess he has the ability from the start.

If this guy keeps Revenge, then Focus Sash for an item will do well, since he can use Revenge on an opponent. Rock Slide for Flying-types and Earthquake for Electric.


Shenandoah (M) Dragon Fang
Adamant, Sniper
EPs: 252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-Outrage
-Waterfall
-Rain Dance
-Dragon Dance
~~An average double-dancer Kingdra, although I'm not sure how much time he'll have to Dance in-battle. I was also thinking of giving him the Razor Claw instead of the Dragon Fang, since it would give a higher chance of Sniper activating, and I'm guessing that lets him deal a bit more damage with critical hits.

Not too sure about the item on this one; I'm not the best at rating teams. I was thinking Life Orb, which would raise the power of his attacks, or Leftovers.... not many people like luck items such as Razor Claw, but you can go ahead and use one if you feel like it.


Kin Tsuchi (F) @ Leftovers
Adamant, Intimidate
EPs: 252 Atk, 128 Def, 108 SpDef
-Iron Head
-Ice Punch
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass
~~Iron Head and Crunch are fine, I think, and the Iron Defense/Baton Pass combination is for if Kin needs higher defense for some reason, or there's another member of my team who needs to defend against a physical sweeper or something like that. The Metal Coat item can be replaced, though. I'm wondering if I'll be relying on her pure-Steel typing too much as a switch-in to Lucian, when she's not the one who's supposed to be the lead here.

Definitely Ice Punch for coverage over Crunch. Swords Dance you can get as an egg move, if you want to go through all that breeding; otherwise, keep Iron Defense.

I'm not the best at forming competitive teams.

The thing is, you don't have a set tier.... it seems like you mixed some up... so why?

 

[Mad MOAI]

William: Well, I can't change an EV-trained Banette's nature... I never planned him to be for speed anyway. I actually was thinking of Defense and Special Defense EPs, just for endurance. But thanks for the help, I might mix up some HP EPs in there as well.

Machamp: The classic Focus Sash/Countering move mix that was used on a Houndoom in the Battle Tower? Sounds good.

Shenandoah: Two Life Orbs might cost a bit much... there was a bit of terrible strategizing in the Razor Claw/Sniper combo, but I could try for Leftovers as well.

Kin Tsuchi: Mawile can learn Ice Punch? I already bred her, so Iron Defense might be good to keep... :P I'll take Ice Punch into consideration, but most Ground moves are physical... I'll try it.

The thing is, you don't have a set tier.... it seems like you mixed some up... so why?

I didn't know tiers mattered so much.

Thanks for the criticism. I can't devise good teams without a bit of suggesting from others ^^;

 

[Mustardear]

Just to let you know, Dewgong can have the ability 'Hydration' which cures it of status if it is raining. This allows you to use Rest with no setbacks as long as it is raining. You mentioned that you were thinking of using Dewgong so it could work well with Kingdra's Rain Dance.

 

[1. Luftballon]

Just to let you know, Dewgong can have the ability 'Hydration' which cures it of status if it is raining. This allows you to use Rest with no setbacks as long as it is raining. You mentioned that you were thinking of using Dewgong so it could work well with Kingdra's Rain Dance.

rain-rest manaphy s/manphy/dewgong/. you can do the same with phione (suboptimal, yes), iirc.

 

[Mad MOAI]

Just to let you know, Dewgong can have the ability 'Hydration' which cures it of status if it is raining. This allows you to use Rest with no setbacks as long as it is raining. You mentioned that you were thinking of using Dewgong so it could work well with Kingdra's Rain Dance.

I actually never thought of that... even though I knew Hydration existed on Dewgong. This sounds like a good idea as well... and for some reason if the Dewgong and Kingdra get into a double battle and are sent out at the same time, Dewgong will be able to cover for Kingdra's Dragon weakness with its Ice moves. Just a random thought.

...I hope I'm not sounding like every idea anyone mentions is good...

 

[J.T.]

Who suggested Focus Sashing a Machamp. Seriously that's a bad idea. Most Machamps are somewhat defensive, or at least have maxed HP so they don't get OHKOed often, and Stealth Rock and other entry hazards would render it useless right off the bat anyway. Also SashCounter is a terrible combo, you kill maybe one thing and then have a useless 1-HP deadweight that loses to frigging Magikarp. And once again it gets foiled instantly by entry hazards.

I'd suggest one of three options for Machamp:

- RestTalk (probably the best choice). Rest, Sleep Talk, a STAB move depending on your ability, and Payback. 252 Atk / 252 HP / 6 Def EVs, stick with Adamant. If you want to get a Machamp with No Guard, use Dynamicpunch, but Guts can work well too because it'll boost your power while using Sleep Talk. If you stick with Guts, use Low Kick.
- Choice Band. Adamant, 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spe EVs. Close Combat, Payback, Ice Punch, and Bullet Punch. 394 Attack with a Choice Band is massive, and Machamp can survive a few hits before going down. Close Combat can wreak havoc. Bullet Punch just exists for priority to kill things that Machamp absolutely needs to outspeed. Stick with Guts, come in on a Will-O-Wisp or something, and start the massacre.
- Choice Scarf - this one's a bit iffy. Jolly, 252 Atk / 244 Spe / 14 HP. Dynamicpunch, Payback, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch. This is the only way Machamp will ever actually outrun anything, but it sacrifices bulk to do so. Ice/Thunderpunch are a pseudo-BoltBeam, Dynamicpunch is broken shit, and Payback is on there to give perfect neutral coverage (nothing can resist all 4).

I'd go into the rest of the team but I'm tired. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[coolking49]

First off speed is SPE not SPD. SPD is special defense, and that made this whole thing hard to read through.


Dont use mawile, its pitiful 50/85/50 defenses suck. Metagross has better numbers in every stat, and can do every thing but boost its stats with swords dance, and baton pass its own iron defense boost. For that use acid armor vaporeon. Also, 3 members of your team are weak to ghost, while only mawile resists it. And as most ghosts are special attackers, mawile wont stop much with those defenses. Replace it with scizor, metagross, honchcrow, weavile, or tyranitar, all of which can kill ghosts with ease using pursuit.

Gardevoir should replace magical leaf with either willowisp, to set up physical attackers, or thunderbolt for type coverage. Also, its a bad lead as most leads take it down. Azelf either tricks you a scarf, or sets up the rocks and KO's with uturn/explosion. Metagross KOs with meteor mash unless you will-o-wisp, and even then it does hefty damage. Same with Swampert. Infernape fakes out then Kos with uturn, as does Jirachi. Aerodactyl outspeeds and KOs with EQ/stone edge. Roserade and smeargle outspeed and sleep you.
And those are only the top 8 leads used. Seriously, choose something else as your lead, and make this your 6th pokemon. Any of the leads mentioned earlier are good.

Bannete has the speed of a scizor, and is only better at special attack. Again, switch it with scizor, who has better stats, typing, ability, you name it. Gengar also works well if you want a ghost, as does mismagius. Banette only adds to your ghost weakness and is not fast enough to use max speed. Only use this if (hey, I just got an idea!) change this to a trick room team.

Trick room benifits gardevoir, bannete, machamp, and mawile (who scizor, metagross, tyranitar, all are better and should be used instead). Metagross can set it up along with Stealth rock, and switch kingdra for snorlax, mawile for scizor, change some natures and you've got a decent team.

Run 4 speed on machamp and max HP, give it rest, sleep talk, dynamic punch (if no gaurd)/ low kick (guts), and payback for ghosts.

Kingdras all right, but give him lefties.

 

[1. Luftballon]

try shadow ball over lucian's magical leaf. provides total type coverage. seriously, that's would be my gardevoir's setup right there.

coolking49:

capitalization matters when it's there...?

you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, and are just throwing random pokemon you think are cool on a team.

smeargle does not outspeed gardevoir. 80 to 75.

there is no ghost weakness. 2x ghost weak does not constitute a team weakness. hell, ghost moves aren't even used that much except for fighting-ghost coverage.

yes, the bannete is subpar, but it really isn't meant to be doing the same as a scizor.

tyranitar is not 'better' than anything at all, because its ability hurts everything else. in any case, your suggested team has a massive infernape weakness unless everything runs a priority move. hell, camerupt could probably destroy is, slow beast that it is.

kingdra is infinitely superior to snorlax given the right conditions. that would involve rain dance abuse, of course.

machamp should not run low kick except in ubers. the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that that would stop is rock types, which shouldn't be going up against it, dark types which either shouldn't go up against it or can OHKO it, and steelix, all of which either have ridiculously high defense or are covered equally well with brick break or cross chop.

 

[J.T.]

All right, now that I'm up and not overtired, I can look at the rest of this team. Retracting my suggestion for Low Kick if you run Guts because I forgot Machamp got Cross Chop. The paranoid part of me says to be careful with the accuracy, though.

First off, ignore pretty much everything coolking said.

Agreeing with sres - put Shadow Ball there in place of Magical Leaf for perfect coverage. This Gardevoir is not a lead, just a sweeper that you placed in the first party slot. Drop the Wise Glasses for a Choice Scarf and come in on something with a good ability to Synchronize it. Use your sixth party slot for some sort of lead, I'll get to that in a moment.

Dropping Banette altogether would be my big suggestion. If you really want to keep it, though, drop the Facade-Toxic Orb set, because it only makes it die quicker. Replace its hold item with Leftovers or something and drop Facade. Knock Off and Will-O-Wisp are its only unique options, but if you want attacking abilities, Return works in place of Facade and doesn't require you to die quickly to use well. Pursuit works as a Dark move so you can kill something that switches out on Banette, although that probably won't happen unless you come in on a Choiced immunity. If you really want a Facade-Toxic Orb set, Poison Heal Breloom's your guy. He has higher Attack and Speed, he doesn't die from Toxic Orb (hell, it heals him), he has better STAB moves in Seed Bomb and Superpower, and he has the best sleep move in the game.

Already given my two cents on Machamp.

No one mentioned this before, but why do you have SpA EVs on an Adamant Kingdra with only physical moves. I shouldn't have to explain why that's a terrible idea. Maybe it's just a typo, I dunno. Anyway, Kingdra seems to be a bit weird on this team. It'd be better if there were a few other Pokemon that benefit from Rain Dance, but I suppose this might work. First, though, you need to get one with Swift Swim over Sniper. Swift Swim is what makes Kingdra, especially if you feel the need to use Rain Dance. Your current set (assuming SpA means Atk in your EV spread) looks like it might work, but when I use Kingdra on my Rain Dance team, I prefer a mixed set:
Kingdra @ Life Orb
Swift Swim / Naughty
EVs: 252 Atk / 240 SpA / 18 Spe
- Waterfall
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Rain Dance
This way, walls don't ruin your fun and you still get a huge amount of power (taking into account the boost to Water-type moves in Rain as well as Draco Meteor's awesome power) and speed (as long as Rain is up).

Mawile should probably be dropped too. Defense passing is mostly useless, and that seems to be its only really unique trait. If you want something defensive, try to use something that's defensive without boosts. Gliscor, Skarmory, and Cresselia are all options to consider.

Your sixth slot should probably be used as a real lead. Before I can give any suggestions, though, I think it would be best to figure out what kind of lead you want. One that sets up Stealth Rock or other entry hazards? One that stops others from setting up entry hazards? Or something else?

 

[wyoming789]

I see what you mean by incomplete. How 'bout as a lead, put in Crobat. With a quick taunt, there's no stealth rock, spikes, etc. Wtih the usage of U-turn, you switch out if you want. Or, if you are willing to risk it, you can use hypnosis. Anyways, if you really want to keep Lucian as your lead, give it taunt, and max out speed. Gardevoir as a lead could work with timid, the extra speed always helps. After taunt, give it protect. That could come in handy. Also, seriosly, why Submission? Cross Chop makes a great replacement. How about replacing Guts? You said yourself, its predictable. Besides, why Focus Sash? What gave you that idea. I came up with some stupid gimmecks in my time, so my advice may not be good. But still, think a little. If your not running NU or UU, why Mawile? Do Bronzong or Metagross. Heck, Metang would do better than Mawile.(No offense to Mawile fanatics.)
If I were you, replace William. How about Gengar? If a physical sweeper is that important to you, then put in Naive Infernape. Its faster, stronger, and has less common OHKOs. That might make a good lead, too. Now, Shenandoah.(What does this mean?) First, the SpA. jumps out. Either give it 252 Att., or replace Waterfall, Outrage, and Dragon Dance with Surf, Dragon Pulse, and Calm Mind. I'd stick with the Attack option. Also, I'm not sure Sniper works here. Give it a Life Orb, or Leftovers. If you run Rain Dance, give something Thunder. Anyways that's all the advice I can give. Like I said before, my ideas aren't always, well, good, but take my heed. Please change some things. This team just doesn't seem to fit in.

 

[coolking49]

try shadow ball over lucian's magical leaf. provides total type coverage. seriously, that's would be my gardevoir's setup right there.

coolking49:

capitalization matters when it's there...?

you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, and are just throwing random pokemon you think are cool on a team.

smeargle does not outspeed gardevoir. 80 to 75.

there is no ghost weakness. 2x ghost weak does not constitute a team weakness. hell, ghost moves aren't even used that much except for fighting-ghost coverage.

yes, the bannete is subpar, but it really isn't meant to be doing the same as a scizor.

tyranitar is not 'better' than anything at all, because its ability hurts everything else. in any case, your suggested team has a massive infernape weakness unless everything runs a priority move. hell, camerupt could probably destroy is, slow beast that it is.

kingdra is infinitely superior to snorlax given the right conditions. that would involve rain dance abuse, of course.

machamp should not run low kick except in ubers. the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that that would stop is rock types, which shouldn't be going up against it, dark types which either shouldn't go up against it or can OHKO it, and steelix, all of which either have ridiculously high defense or are covered equally well with brick break or cross chop.

Smeargle runs timid while this is modest!
3 pokemon are weak to ghost (bannette, gardevoir, and machamp), and banette wont out speed another ghost to kill it. Thats why you need a pursuit user. Its not good when half your team is weak to ghost, btw, gengar will kill you.

Banette is a slow sweeper reliaing on sucker punch, whil scizor is the same except with sword dance and bullet punch. And it can pursuit.

Tyranitar might not be great on this team, but I was listing pursuit users without ghost weaknesses and it counted.

My proposed trick room team? Eh, I was just thinking out loud, It would still need work, I know.

Kingdra is better than snorlax, but not in trick room, where I was wandering. Kingdra works fine here, as I stated later.

machamp should only be used with no guard. Low kick was from JT's post, and I thought it might be a good idea. Without no guard, machamp is just as bad as Heracross and worse than Breloom.

100th post!

edit:wyoming, shenedoah is a national park

 

[J.T.]

Smeargle runs timid while this is modest!

Fair enough. With a Scarf, though, Gardevoir will outspeed it.

3 pokemon are weak to ghost (bannette, gardevoir, and machamp),

Fighting isn't weak to Ghost. :|

and banette wont out speed another ghost to kill it. Thats why you need a pursuit user. Its not good when half your team is weak to ghost, btw, gengar will kill you.

There are ways to deal with Gengar. A bulky Machamp is able to take the hits fairly well, and Mawile resists its STAB, although it needs to look out for Focus Blast.

Banette is a slow sweeper reliaing on sucker punch, whil scizor is the same except with sword dance and bullet punch. And it can pursuit.

But they are not meant for the same purpose. By your logic, Hitmontop must logically fit the same role as Scizor. Not so - Hitmontop gets options Scizor doesn't, like Rapid Spin, Bulk Up, and a better STAB priority move. Scizor also gets Swords Dance, so Hitmontop sweepers are more relegated to using Choice Bands. Banette has more support options than Scizor, like Will-O-Wisp and Knock Off.

Tyranitar might not be great on this team, but I was listing pursuit users without ghost weaknesses and it counted.

That's great. Sandstorm will fuck over the team, though. Just saying "OH HERE'S SOME THINGS WITH PURSUIT LOLOL" without considering the rest of his team is kind of a bad idea.

machamp should only be used with no guard.

I'm a proponent of Guts RestTalk Machamp because of the huge increase in power. No Guard works well too, but Guts is a great ability too.

Low kick was from JT's post, and I thought it might be a good idea.

I didn't realize it got Cross Chop before then.

Without no guard, machamp is just as bad as Heracross

Machamp has better defensive abilities, higher Attack, and fewer weaknesses. It's also much more able to abuse RestTalk sets.

and worse than Breloom.

I'd argue it's worse than Breloom even with No Guard. :|

 

[coolking49]

Fair enough. With a Scarf, though, Gardevoir will outspeed it.

Not as a lead, where I was talking about. The only scarf lead I know of is typhlosion. As a normal pokemon, Gardevoir is often, I use it on some of my teams, and it works. But lead, it will fail at, dont put it there.

Fighting isn't weak to Ghost. :|

but machamp still cant touch it. Gengar still will kill it faster, with Machamp's rather bad SpD SpD

There are ways to deal with Gengar. A bulky Machamp is able to take the hits fairly well, and Mawile resists its STAB, although it needs to look out for Focus Blast.

Mawile? of a base 55 spd? really? Gengar will always 2ko, so it cant switch in, thus not being a counter.

But they are not meant for the same purpose. By your logic, Hitmontop must logically fit the same role as Scizor. Not so - Hitmontop gets options Scizor doesn't, like Rapid Spin, Bulk Up, and a better STAB priority move. Scizor also gets Swords Dance, so Hitmontop sweepers are more relegated to using Choice Bands. Banette has more support options than Scizor, like Will-O-Wisp and Knock Off.

So give me one reason to use banette over sworn dance scizor

That's great. Sandstorm will fuck over the team, though. Just saying "OH HERE'S SOME THINGS WITH PURSUIT LOLOL" without considering the rest of his team is kind of a bad idea.

wasnt thinking here.

I'm a proponent of Guts RestTalk Machamp because of the huge increase in power. No Guard works well too, but Guts is a great ability too.

I'm not, because of cross chop's accuracy and dynamic punch's confusion rate

I didn't realize it got Cross Chop before then.

I was to lazy to go check for other options when I see one on the above post

Machamp has better defensive abilities, higher Attack, and fewer weaknesses. It's also much more able to abuse RestTalk sets.

Heracross has 30 more speed, at the cost of 5 attack and 5 defense. Its special defense is lower, but its typing is better. Personally, I would pick heracross over machamp with guts

I'd argue it's worse than Breloom even with No Guard. :|

maybe, but at least it is set apart.

 

[J.T.]

Not as a lead, where I was talking about. The only scarf lead I know of is typhlosion. As a normal pokemon, Gardevoir is often, I use it on some of my teams, and it works. But lead, it will fail at, dont put it there.

Gardevoir doesn't fit as a lead, no. That's what I was saying.

Still, assuming he still decides to use Gardy as a lead, what would Smeargle do to it after outspeeding it? Spore it? If so, surprise! Smeargle gets hit with Synchronize.

but machamp still cant touch it. Gengar still will kill it faster, with Machamp's rather bad SpD SpD

That's not a Ghost weakness. Machamp has options to hit Gengar (Payback in particular, since Gengar will always outrun Machamp, which activates Payback's power boost), which I mentioned above.

Mawile? of a base 55 spd? really? Gengar will always 2ko, so it cant switch in, thus not being a counter.

Fair enough.

So give me one reason to use banette over sworn dance scizor

How about if you want support instead of a sweeper? Will-O-Wisp cripples physical threats, Thunder Wave neuters fast opponents, Knock Off removes Leftovers and Choice items, and Destiny Bond speaks for itself. You may as well compare Blissey and Tyranitar.

I'm not, because of cross chop's accuracy and dynamic punch's confusion rate

Way I see it, 80 accuracy is still usable. Judging by the popularity of moves like Stone Edge, which has the same accuracy and base power, I'd say many people agree with me. Even Focus Blast is a popular option on special sweepers despite having only 70 accuracy.

I agree that confusion is good, but killing things much faster is good too. I'm not going into the higher critical-hit possibility either, mostly because it's insignificant. Machamp may have a worse time taking on walls that resist Fighting, meaning its role changes slightly, but a change in moveset can remove that problem. Scared of Gyarados and other such threats? Use Stone Edge over Payback. It kills Gyarados and still 2HKOs Gengar.

Heracross has 30 more speed, at the cost of 5 attack and 5 defense. Its special defense is lower, but its typing is better. Personally, I would pick heracross over machamp with guts

You are ignoring the fact that they do not have the same purposes. Machamp is bulky. Machamp is not a sweeper. Machamp should never be a sweeper. Heracross is a sweeper. Heracross is not bulky. Heracross should never be bulky. Heracross' typing gives it a very common weakness that Machamp doesn't have (Fire), is neutral to another common attack type that Machamp resists (Rock), and does not negate any of Machamp's weaknesses. On top of that, its overall defenses are lower. It gains a resistance to Ground and Fighting, sure, I'll give you that, but that's not much use unless switching in on a resist, which is pretty much the only way something like Heracross can start sweeping. Not to mention Machamp, like I said, can abuse RestTalk much better than Heracross can. Heracross has two options to activate Guts - use a Flame or Toxic Orb (therefore rendering it too slow to sweep), or get lucky switching in to a status effect that isn't paralysis. In both cases, Heracross will die faster as a result. Machamp doesn't have that problem - it just needs to use Rest, which heals it, cures status problems, and boosts its power for the next two turns, all in one move.

Machamp is much better suited for its role than Heracross would be, just like Heracross is much better suited for its role than Machamp would be. This is why we don't compare Pokemon fulfilling different roles to each other - it doesn't work. It's comparing apples and oranges.

maybe, but at least it is set apart.

It still is. Breloom doesn't get Guts, it gets Poison Heal. It survives longer in return for lower power, which is in turn offset by its ability to abuse Spore, Substitute, Leech Seed, and Focus Punch.

 

[coolking49]

Gardevoir doesn't fit as a lead, no. That's what I was saying.

Still, assuming he still decides to use Gardy as a lead, what would Smeargle do to it after outspeeding it? Spore it? If so, surprise! Smeargle gets hit with Synchronize.

Depends on the set. the anti lead and baton pass sets (with substitute) effectively do their job. Only the spikes lead doesnt. (thats about 60% of all sets according to Smogon's usage stats, but granted, some arent leads)

How about if you want support instead of a sweeper? Will-O-Wisp cripples physical threats, Thunder Wave neuters fast opponents, Knock Off removes Leftovers and Choice items, and Destiny Bond speaks for itself. You may as well compare Blissey and Tyranitar.

first off, he clearly meant it to be an attacker, but you ewre answering my question, so, eh. Dusknoir or someting can support better too.


Way I see it, 80 accuracy is still usable. Judging by the popularity of moves like Stone Edge, which has the same accuracy and base power, I'd say many people agree with me. Even Focus Blast is a popular option on special sweepers despite having only 70 accuracy.

I agree that confusion is good, but killing things much faster is good too. I'm not going into the higher critical-hit possibility either, mostly because it's insignificant. Machamp may have a worse time taking on walls that resist Fighting, meaning its role changes slightly, but a change in moveset can remove that problem. Scared of Gyarados and other such threats? Use Stone Edge over Payback. It kills Gyarados and still 2HKOs Gengar.

problem with stone edge is its another low accuracy move. Anyways, this is getting to be mostly an arguement between us whether or not we like Machamp with guts or no guard. I think there are better sleep talkers but, what ever. Its usable (and actually might better on this team without residual damage from switches), but still, I like no guard better.

As for Heracross, I'd still argue a fore weakness is worth an earthquake resistance. But it doesnt matter too much. I dont think Cryptica wants a heracross anyways. Yes heracross is different. Again, its a matter of opinion.

 

[wyoming789]

Hey, here's an idea, rate the dang-gum team! You two are fighting like an old married couple! Who cares whether you think that Cross Chop is a bad option, or that Scizor and Bannete are better than one another. This thread turned into some sort of battleground. Take your time to actually do what this thread is about, not "Wonder if J.T. answered yet, I want ta go annoy him" or "Suppose Coolking replied, better go and trash him,". Geez.

 

[1. Luftballon]

Depends on the set. the anti lead and baton pass sets (with substitute) effectively do their job. Only the spikes lead doesnt. (thats about 60% of all sets according to Smogon's usage stats, but granted, some arent leads)

smeargle isn't even commonly used. maybe we should be arguing about my scarfed glaceon that likes to outspeed OHKO leads with less than 120 base speed?

first off, he clearly meant it to be an attacker, but you ewre answering my question, so, eh. Dusknoir or someting can support better too.

lower hp, attack, speed, and higher defenses is not 'doing it better.' it's just another niche. and knock off is not available to dusknoir.

problem with stone edge is its another low accuracy move. Anyways, this is getting to be mostly an arguement between us whether or not we like Machamp with guts or no guard. I think there are better sleep talkers but, what ever. Its usable (and actually might better on this team without residual damage from switches), but still, I like no guard better.

problem is, there is no good alternative. you're stuck with either rock slide, or brick break. (karate chop is ludicrously underpowered, and low kick is rather situational.) you can use that iff you want. accuracy is for glass cannon sweepers like weavile. machamp can live with 20% miss chance.

As for Heracross, I'd still argue a fore weakness is worth an earthquake resistance. But it doesnt matter too much. I dont think Cryptica wants a heracross anyways. Yes heracross is different. Again, its a matter of opinion.

rhyperior (only stab eq from a general sweeperI could think of) likes to carry fire punch and lots of the more powerful sweepers can 2hko hera after SR even with a resisted move. OU sweepers are fast.

 

[J.T.]

Hey, here's an idea, rate the dang-gum team! You two are fighting like an old married couple! Who cares whether you think that Cross Chop is a bad option, or that Scizor and Bannete are better than one another. This thread turned into some sort of battleground. Take your time to actually do what this thread is about, not "Wonder if J.T. answered yet, I want ta go annoy him" or "Suppose Coolking replied, better go and trash him,". Geez.

Technically I am helping rate the team - I'm explaining my suggestions and correcting Coolking's. I'm not coming to this thread specifically to argue with Coolking, but since that's pretty much the only thing going on here, well.

I'd add some more advice if the OP would post again and update the team. As it is, I've already given my advice.

 

[coolking49]

JT's got the idea. I tried to stop the fight in my previous post. JT's caught on. Now sreservoir is making an arguement. Anyways, Smeargle is used 5%, but when you get down to #11 on the list of most commonly used leads, you go pretty low usage. Unfortunetly, Glaceon is #157 on the list (seriously, see here), so I will not mention it. But yes, arguing over every lead is pointless. I'm just saying that gardevoir is a bad lead.

Dusknoir was off the top of my head, I'm sure I could find a better supporter. Again, this is irrelelvent to the team, as he clearly did not mean for it to support.

Lastly, most sweepers carry earthquake. In fact, 21% (in october, i cant find more recent stats) of moves used were earthquake. 11% were fire blast or flamethrower (added them up). Again, unless you say heracross should be on this team, stop talking about it.

Also, please edit the first post, it would help alot to know the new team we're dealing with