Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Uh, I already claimed to have Detect, before Negrek did; see here. The fact you'd apparently forgotten certainly explains nicely why you'd target me for a nightkill anyway, though.

I don't think you have lovering and culting. I don't think there is a cult at all anymore. I think you've been good old mafia all along, helped by your ability to lover peple and thus innocuously gain their trust and information. You're the one who first suggested a cultafia in the first place in fact, as far as I can tell (here), which would sure be convenient for a solo mafia. I thought Negrek was originally mafia who was culted, but now I'm guessing neg was just some kind of rogue vigilante role; VM was probably something alien-esque or something of the like. Everybody else has flipped innocent - two third-alignment roles in a big game is not at all implausible. And a game with only a single mafia member, whose actions are designed around building trust with the town, is exactly the kind of thing MF might do to screw with us.

I was baffled by how there was apparently a scum killing role around but it kept not doing anything - but that no longer seems so strange. To the single mafia it was imperative not to be caught committing murders, and not to fall under suspicion in any way.

It all fits. Hell, I was somewhat surprised when during The Thing Mai didn't accuse me of being desperate scum trying to get out of being lynched - I didn't think I was all that trusted, and I was really aware it was something I might have assumed if I'd been on the other side. I kind of expected to be lynched on that basis, but hoped my arguments would persuade people to consider them once I flipped innocent. But Mai never raised that possibility - because they already knew that I would flip innocent.

So, in summary, I think Mai's moves are Role Play, Captivate, The Thing, and a killing move. They're all interesting moves to give a solo mafia. I would be extremely surprised if I'm wrong at this point.

I didn't forget; I was confirming, since earlier you didn't sound completely certain that that was what detect did in the first place.

What do you mean? You weren't up for being lynched in the first place. I thought you were extremely trusted, actually, considering Eifie, my own lover, thought that you were more trusted than me. How... is that a convincing argument? Scum accuse innocents all the time of being scum. That's how they get people lynched. (I wasn't that suspicious of you because to be honest Eifie kind of dictated my opinions for a while... I wasn't paying too much attention, and I did bring it up once or twice.)

I think you're a better person for lone mafia, actually, considering we know that you have a killing action and have been using it (only to kill innocents!). Four moves, really? They don't mesh with my other ones much at all. (And that would make Eifie's role almost completely useless! When she only has one move!)

And if Negrek is a rogue vigilante, then you have a much higher chance of being one too; roleblocking is a much more fitting second power, too. (And if you two weren't actually together, then there was a reason for you two to have that huge argument.) We don't know anything about VM.

It... doesn't really fit too much at all.

Either way, I don't see what I'd gain by claiming I was attacked here if I hadn't been; claiming I know the remaining scum has a killing move was not exactly central to my argument that the remaining scum is you.

It gives you something more to accuse me of, and allows you to change your accusation from cult leader to lone mafia.

(I think I'm more neutral to the remaining scum being you or RTB - for RTB two day/lynch powers mesh really well - but the more we argue, the more my opinion tilts???)

(RTB, do you have any other powers that might be useful here? You never mentioned any, 99% sure, but.)

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

You weren't up for being lynched in the first place.

Yes, I was...? This was during The Thing, where, while we were hoping for RTB to be able to override the day decision, there was still a lynch vote between the two of us. (Not that that's the most pertinent question - you could have accused me even if I couldn't have been lynched on that particular day.)

I'd been accused before, by multiple people; Eifie was just about the only person who'd expressed trusting me. Alligates in the post just before Eifie's said they trusted me least of everyone, in fact.

Scum accuse innocents all the time of being scum. That's how they get people lynched.

Scum do accuse innocents of being scum all the time, but when X is accusing Y, Y accuses X back, X is lynched, and they turn out to be innocent, Y tends to be under suspicion, since X's confirmed innocence makes their accusations more credible and someone who retaliated against them by accusing X them more suspicious. And a solo mafia needs to not draw suspicion above all else, hence why you'd focus only on arguing fiercely against my reasoning for suspecting you and not on the seemingly reasonable possibility that I was doing this because I was scum.

I don't know what Eifie's role was actually supposed to do, but we only assumed it was supposed to protect from culting because we were convinced there was a cult. Then again, in theory, maybe VM really was some sort of cult leader who just turned out to not really manage to get anything done, making Eifie's role irrelevant. (...Hmm, then maybe Negrek did get culted.) I don't know; as you rightly noted, we don't know anything about VM other than that he was some sort of third faction. All I know is since I was attacked in the night, you have to have a killing role, which implies you at least are mafia and not cult.

Why would I particularly want to change my accusation from cult to lone mafia, or accuse you of something more? The only question here is who is the remaining scum; there is nothing more powerful about the statement "You're the remaining scum, and you're mafia instead of cult and have a killing action" than "You're the remaining scum" when the reason I have for thinking the former over the latter is so obviously take-my-word-for-it. We'd want to lynch you if you were the remaining scum either way. I said I was attacked and that you're mafia simply because that's the truth as far as I can tell.

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Yes, I was...? This was during The Thing, where, while we were hoping for RTB to be able to override the day decision, there was still a lynch vote between the two of us. (Not that that's the most pertinent question - you could have accused me even if I couldn't have been lynched on that particular day.)

I'd been accused before, by multiple people; Eifie was just about the only person who'd expressed trusting me. Alligates in the post just before Eifie's said they trusted me least of everyone, in fact.

Not at the beginning? You said "Hell, I was somewhat surprised when during The Thing Mai didn't accuse me of being desperate scum trying to get out of being lynched." You weren't up for being lynched in the first place, hopeandjoy was, so why would you be a desperate scum trying to get out it? You doing that seemed to make no sense. I didn't think too hard and get centered on you being scum because that didn't make much sense at all to be making that move, and like I said, Eifie trusted you.

(Not that that's the most pertinent question - you could have accused me even if I couldn't have been lynched on that particular day.)

Are you... saying... that I should've been suspicious of you just for existing, even if you couldn't be lynched (therefore having no reason to lynch you), and not doing so makes me suspicious myself???

Alligates still trusted you significantly, and she ranked you above Superbird.

Butterfree - I don't think interaction with Negrek was staged, which means probably not a cult, if not a cult then (because cult has not won yet, there is probably an inactive or unable-to-cult leader, meaning Butterfree is PROBABLY not cult - if cultness is on a scale of red to green following the 'rainbow'/roy g biv with red the lowest, say, she'd probably be somewhere from red-orange to yellow-orange)

[...]

So tldr: the red to green scale red=most likely innocent
Mai: ? (more recent data pls)
hopeandjoy: red
red (this is me so there is a bias)
superbird: yellow/? (idk man his absence is explained but the haj thing is not)
rtb: red
butterfree: orangeish
eifie: I have no clue because depends on cult motivations which idk so

The person who was pushing for your lynch the hardest turned up third-party. Bussing had been brought up only slightly. Why is not having anything against you so terrible?

(Well, now I do, I guess.)

Scum do accuse innocents of being scum all the time, but when X is accusing Y, Y accuses X back, X is lynched, and they turn out to be innocent, Y tends to be under suspicion, since X's confirmed innocence makes their accusations more credible and someone who retaliated against them by accusing X them more suspicious. And a solo mafia needs to not draw suspicion above all else, hence why you'd focus only on arguing fiercely against my reasoning for suspecting you and not on the seemingly reasonable possibility that I was doing this because I was scum.

Okay, my first reaction to this was "confusing", but...

You're arguing this under the assumption that I am totally scum and you are totally innocent and I know that. (Obviously stated more for RTB than for you.)

I was doing that because I thought it was a third person, in this case Alligates. Though that turned out to be probably wrong, I thought that possibility was more likely than you being mafia and doing this precisely to get me lynched when you aren't in harm's way in the first place. That seemed like an unlikely thing to happen. Those... things you said are usually true, but it doesn't stop scum a lot of the time??? I've drawn a lot of suspicion over this game, almost certainly more than you, since like the past three days the question has been "Is Mai a cultmaster?", so I haven't exactly been doing what a solo mafia would want to be doing.

All I know is since I was attacked in the night, you have to have a killing role, which implies you at least are mafia and not cult.

Why would I particularly want to change my accusation from cult to lone mafia, or accuse you of something more? The only question here is who is the remaining scum; there is nothing more powerful about the statement "You're the remaining scum, and you're mafia instead of cult and have a killing action" than "You're the remaining scum" when the reason I have for thinking the former over the latter is so obviously take-my-word-for-it. We'd want to lynch you if you were the remaining scum either way. I said I was attacked and that you're mafia simply because that's the truth as far as I can tell.

I don't have to have a killing role. We've been ignoring RTB this whole time, and it could've even been Superbird using your action against you as a protection for if you were scum. Come to think of it, considering there's no one else who has a copyable night action, you've be the only target - so why not target you for both, when RTB looked pretty innocent and he would die if I did?

... Actually, I think that's my new theory, now.

Because we've established that I'm not a cultmaster, or at the very least, that my lovers aren't cultists?

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Not at the beginning? You said "Hell, I was somewhat surprised when during The Thing Mai didn't accuse me of being desperate scum trying to get out of being lynched." You weren't up for being lynched in the first place, hopeandjoy was, so why would you be a desperate scum trying to get out it? You doing that seemed to make no sense.

Oh, no, I'm not suggesting you should have assumed I did The Thing (which, yes, would have made no sense at all). I'm talking about during The Thing, when I started to think you and Eifie were behind everything, and rather than assume I was just scum trying to get you lynched instead of me (as I'd assumed you would), you focused entirely on arguing your own innocence. I was pleasantly surprised at the time, since I really thought I was effectively sacrificing myself by making that accusation while being (as I perceived it, at least) not remotely trusted by anyone except Eifie, but didn't think any more of it until now.

Regarding Alligates, I'm thinking specifically of this post, where she explicitly said she trusted me least of everyone.

I don't have to have a killing role. We've been ignoring RTB this whole time, and it could've even been Superbird using your action against you as a protection for if you were scum. Come to think of it, considering there's no one else who has a copyable night action, you've be the only target - so why not target you for both, when RTB looked pretty innocent and he would die if I did?

... Actually, I think that's my new theory, now.

Well, yes, assuming the killing role is you was simply because I was pretty sure you were more suspicious than RTB (because it wouldn't quite make sense for him to have The Thing, and because Wargle had apparently confirmed him to be innocent before according to Superbird).

I didn't think of it being Superbird mirroring me, though - now that you say it, that's completely plausible as an explanation for why I was apparently attacked in the night. So yes, you're not necessarily mafia or have a killing action.

Regardless, I still think you're likelier to be the remaining scum than RTB. There are reasonable facts backing up his innocence, while as far as I can tell my reasoning for why your innocence had not been as clearly established as we'd assumed still stands.

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Oh, no, I'm not suggesting you should have assumed I did The Thing (which, yes, would have made no sense at all). I'm talking about during The Thing, when I started to think you and Eifie were behind everything, and rather than assume I was just scum trying to get you lynched instead of me (as I'd assumed you would), you focused entirely on arguing your own innocence. I was pleasantly surprised at the time, since I really thought I was effectively sacrificing myself by making that accusation while being (as I perceived it, at least) not remotely trusted by anyone except Eifie, but didn't think any more of it until now.

Regarding Alligates, I'm thinking specifically of this post, where she explicitly said she trusted me least of everyone.

Ah. Well, like I said: I didn't think you starting The Thing made sense, so I didn't think you were scum? I thought a third person started it, so I focused on that instead of tossing out accusations at everyone I was unsure of - which I have a tendency to do sometimes, but it's not very helpful. It's either that or focus on one possibility, often excessively... I thought you were extremely trusted, which might've been a misjudgment on my part, but really: not immediately responding I think you're scum, repeatedly, loudly, when someone suspects you? Not that significant! Especially from when my perception, most people already thought I was scum.

Also, I did point it out. That wasn't my main argument because like I said, I thought it was a third party, and I was arguing for an abstain instead. To gather more information and prevent a mislynch. How is that a mafia move?

I read that as Alligates trusting everyone, but you slightly less... I still absorbed "Butterfree is trusted."

Regardless, I still think you're likelier to be the remaining scum than RTB. There are reasonable facts backing up his innocence, while as far as I can tell my reasoning for why your innocence had not been as clearly established as we'd assumed still stands.

Wargle never really clarified how she knew innocence, did she? It might've just been "I talked to this person and I believed them when they said they weren't scum."

Plus, RTB has been extremely quiet all game, significantly moreso than me (and I've been under fire a lot for being inactive, yes, but it's RTB's seven to my thirty-seven). He has agreed with Eifie's thinking/advocated doing nothing, added nothing except "maybe lynch the GM??? I don't know," when that turned out to be pointless, expressed nothing much, roleclaimed (notably, a single power), voted for me ( eh?), confirmed his changing of the day decision and gave excuses for his absence, and finally, fed us info that luckily seemed to confirm his innocence and gave more excuses.

None of those posts have been particularly helpful. That last one even seems to imply that Wargle doesn't know who she's talking to/doesn't know their innocence. Sure, RTB changed the day decision, but that was after we had all called for him and I had posted this; if he didn't, then he probably would've been under serious fire for ignoring us.

We've done a lot of testing on my claims; while it's true, they aren't my innocence, they back it up a lot, right? Meanwhile... not so much RTB, since we never solidified Wargle if I recall correctly.

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Also, I did point it out. That wasn't my main argument because like I said, I thought it was a third party, and I was arguing for an abstain instead. To gather more information and prevent a mislynch. How is that a mafia move?

Well, it's not so much that it's a mafia move - like I said, I didn't really think anything of it at the time - as that once I was getting pretty convinced you were mafia for other reasons, I thought back to that and it suddenly made perfect sense. Like, if you were lone mafia you definitely would want to mostly argue you're innocent rather than counter-accuse in this situation, so not going "Hey, Butterfree sure is being accusation-happy all of a sudden now that she might be lynched if RTB doesn't get here in time" is less surprising if you're mafia than if you're not mafia (you did bring up the possibility that I was scum in general, but not, as far as I could tell, in connection with the fact I was accusing you). Of course this wouldn't indicate you're mafia on its own - it's entirely possible you just believed my suspicions were probably sincere. But given I already suspect you of being mafia, that's something that ever so slightly strengthens my suspicions.

It's basically the same as how "people have been nightkilled but only once in a blue moon" makes more sense in light of the theory that we're dealing with a lone mafia, since a lone mafia would prioritize not coming under suspicion over getting people killed as fast as possible. It doesn't in itself indicate there's a lone mafia, but if the "lone mafia" hypothesis is already being considered for other reasons, that's a point in its favor - an established pattern that fits better with that hypothesis than the alternative.


We never established exactly how Wargle believes she knows alignment, but "believing people when they say they're innocent" would be rather unbelievably naïve in a mafia game, so I highly doubt that's it. I'm still sticking with my theory that Wargle's role description indicated she would be able to talk to a random innocent, or at least non-mafia player, each night, and the list of people she gave to Superbird is simply the people she's been assigned to talk to. Given Wargle and Superbird's innocence seems to confirm Wargle's information is at least honest, there are as far as I can see exactly three ways that RTB could not be innocent:

a) RTB was innocent at the time Wargle talked to him, but was subsequently recruited into a cult. As far as I can tell this is flat-out impossible at this point - Negrek was lynched the same day Superbird posted about knowing hopeandjoy was innocent, and Wargle must have talked to RTB after telling Superbird about hopeandjoy (unless she'd just randomly decided to conceal some of the names she'd talked to, which doesn't appear to make any sense). VM was lynched even earlier. If there was a surviving cult member who could recruit RTB after Negrek was killed, who was it? Everyone who has died since then has flipped innocent, and if it were one of us the cult would have already won by now.

b) Wargle was incorrect in assuming these people were innocent. Like I said, I have a hard time believing she'd just assume that for no good reason - the only way I can see this being the case is if she interpreted a role description that says she can talk to non-mafia players as meaning they're innocent, when really she could also talk to cult members. But the more I think about that, the less sense it makes - if you're going to disallow talking to mafia players, even hypothetically for a game where the only antagonist is a cult, why wouldn't you disallow talking to the cult? If the problem is not wanting the baddies to be aware of this silent town ally, you absolutely should make the cult impossible to talk to, and because the player she can talk to each night appears to be random, there are no issues like knowing somebody has been recruited if you talked to them once but aren't allowed to talk to them when you try again.

c) RTB is some kind of Godfather-like mafia role that appears innocent to Wargle. I suppose in a way this goes well with the power to override the day decision, but it seems a serious stretch to me - again, I really think Wargle's innocents were just people she'd managed to talk to, and if you have a role that can only talk to innocents because you want its existence to be secret from the mafia, why on earth would you make a mafia role that it can talk to anyway?

You have a point about his lack of real contributions and that he might have drawn fire if he hadn't overridden the day decision there (though the fact he was very inactive anyway would have made it a lot more innocuous than otherwise), but on balance the Wargle thing seems fairly solid to me.

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

...okay, I guess in case b) it is possible you'd allow talking to the cult because somebody recruited into the cult might have already known about Wargle and thus the cult might find out anyway. Fair enough. Under that assumption presumably VM would have been cult leader, recruited RTB and possibly Negrek before being lynched, and RTB hasn't been able to do anything but attempt to quietly get by and survive since. I guess that works out. Not sure I'm convinced, though.

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Well, it's not so much that it's a mafia move - like I said, I didn't really think anything of it at the time - as that once I was getting pretty convinced you were mafia for other reasons, I thought back to that and it suddenly made perfect sense. Like, if you were lone mafia you definitely would want to mostly argue you're innocent rather than counter-accuse in this situation, so not going "Hey, Butterfree sure is being accusation-happy all of a sudden now that she might be lynched if RTB doesn't get here in time" is less surprising if you're mafia than if you're not mafia (you did bring up the possibility that I was scum in general, but not, as far as I could tell, in connection with the fact I was accusing you). Of course this wouldn't indicate you're mafia on its own - it's entirely possible you just believed my suspicions were probably sincere. But given I already suspect you of being mafia, that's something that ever so slightly strengthens my suspicions.

... I pretty much did, like I said, people have been accusing me most of the game??? Ugh. We've gone over almost everything at this point and I've explained and offered valid defenses, I don't get what's left to be suspicious of, honestly... (this does not help in that I haven't actually figured out which of you two I think is scum. Being innocent does not mean I have all the answers...)

It's basically the same as how "people have been nightkilled but only once in a blue moon" makes more sense in light of the theory that we're dealing with a lone mafia, since a lone mafia would prioritize not coming under suspicion over getting people killed as fast as possible. It doesn't in itself indicate there's a lone mafia, but if the "lone mafia" hypothesis is already being considered for other reasons, that's a point in its favor - an established pattern that fits better with that hypothesis than the alternative.

Since this has been bothering me, I went through the whole game thread (it was awful) and counted all the deaths:

hopeandjoy: modkilled, innocent.
Light: killed by ... ?
Alligates: lynched, innocent.
Zexion: killed by ... ? innocent.
Superbird: killed by Butterfree, innocent.
Flora: lynched
Wargle: lynched, innocent.
DarkAura: lynched, innocent.
Zero Moment: lynched, innocent.
Negrek: lynched, third party.
Eifie: killed by Butterfree via role play, innocent.
Visitor Message: lynched, third party.

Night Zero: No Death
Day One: Abstain
Night One: No Death
Day Two: Wargle, innocent
Night Two: No Death
Day Three: VM, third party
Night Three: Light (PRESUMED NEGREK)
Day Four: Flora, innocent
Night Four: No Death
Day Five: Zero Moment, innocent
Night Five: No Death
Day Six: Negrek, third party
Night Six: No Death
Day Seven: DarkAura, innocent
Night Seven: Zexion, innocent (UNKNOWN)
Day Eight: Abstain [hopeandjoy dies, innocent] [The Thing]
Night Eight: Eifie, innocent (BUTTERFREE VIA ROLE PLAY)
Day Nine: Alligates, innocent
Night Nine: Superbird, innocent (UNKNOWN)

That doesn't make any sense with mafia at all, let alone lone. There are only two/maybe three unexplained deaths, period: there's no reason to abstain from killing that many times, especially when there was only one inforole (Zexion) that maybe could've found out who did what, and I haven't been accusing people enough, apparently. (On suspecting me as lone mafia, what else would I be doing during the night? Role playing? Why would I suspect being killed that much when there have been so few deaths?) No matter what happens, mafia need to be the last one standing to win, and the farther the game goes on the more likely they are to be lynched. There were no real protection roles to block someone, so saying I've been killing but it's been blocked doesn't make sense either: only your roleblocking and hopeandjoy could prevent things, if I recall correctly, and she never even used that.

... Also, why are we saying "lone mafia" instead of serial killer, anyway? A mafia would require goons/dons, I would think, and you even called Negrek a "rogue vigilante" earlier. I don't know what this indicates, but I'm slightly disturbed. (A serial killer would be third-party, so it wouldn't be mafia and therefore "this person is not mafia" means less???)

You have a point about his lack of real contributions and that he might have drawn fire if he hadn't overridden the day decision there (though the fact he was very inactive anyway would have made it a lot more innocuous than otherwise), but on balance the Wargle thing seems fairly solid to me.

I don't know about the Wargle thing, so my explanation until I figure it out is this game makes my head hurt. But seriously, we don't have any idea why Wargle thinks the people she's talked to are innocent, we just know that she thinks they are. The information may have been changed or been inaccurate. (I'm asking Metallica if I can still talk to my dead lovers ... maybe Superbird or Eifie will have a better idea somehow :D)

My specifically calling him out would've hurt that excuse significantly, though, since he couldn't say he wasn't online. I would think behavior is very significant in the game where we can't even figure out what type of scum we're dealing with. >|||

 

[RespectTheBlade]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Alright, time for the reveal.

I'm completely innocent-aligned, and to prove it, I will use my secondary power. I can revive a player once per game. The votes are tied now, and due to a condition of my first power, my vote counts are meaningless. Here, watch. Butterfree.

Wait until the end of the day phase. If It's pretty obvious what happens now- no deaths means that I'm telling you the truth, and Butterfree dying means that I'm a liar. I'm unsure if you're able to do this, but killing me during the day phase would be inadvisable. The revival, remmber.

So tell me who you want to revive. And make sure they're innocent. (Oh, and MF I'm not entirely sure of this but do cult members (if a cult were to even exist in this game) keep their cult alignment upon death?)

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Alright, time for the reveal.

I'm completely innocent-aligned, and to prove it, I will use my secondary power. I can revive a player once per game. The votes are tied now, and due to a condition of my first power, my vote counts are meaningless. Here, watch. Butterfree.

Wait until the end of the day phase. If It's pretty obvious what happens now- no deaths means that I'm telling you the truth, and Butterfree dying means that I'm a liar. I'm unsure if you're able to do this, but killing me during the day phase would be inadvisable. The revival, remmber.

So tell me who you want to revive. And make sure they're innocent. (Oh, and MF I'm not entirely sure of this but do cult members (if a cult were to even exist in this game) keep their cult alignment upon death?)

That is... very bizarre and very convincing, somehow. Alright, I think I'm pretty sure Butterfree is the remaining scum now...

(If Butterfree dies and you have a killing action, there's nothing I can do, though... Butterfree could kill you if you step out of line/your vote counts, but I'm not quite sure that means I want to be lynched. :V Ah, well, assuming you're innocent...)

For revivals:

Zexion gives us much-needed info, but may just die again if there's an actual killer with no restrictions. (RTB, can you ask when the revival occurs? At the beginning or end of the night - can they use their actions?)
Superbird can use _'s action on _ to prevent killing/kill the killer, may not be helpful.
hopeandjoy can protect one of us from everyone else's actions, but who? Also provides very little info.
Eifie... is probably useless now, actually?

Wait a second, Wargle.

Problem, though: RTB is creating a vote tie, which is not a necessary abstain. Metallica, what would a tie mean in this case?

(Or, Butterfree, agree to abstain, maybe?)

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

... I pretty much did, like I said, people have been accusing me most of the game??? Ugh. We've gone over almost everything at this point and I've explained and offered valid defenses, I don't get what's left to be suspicious of, honestly...

Again: I mainly think you're the remaining scum simply because I think RTB's innocence is better established than yours, and I know it's not me. Everything else I've brought up is circumstantial evidence, stuff that's like "hey, that would make a lot of sense if Mai was scum". I am not and never have been claiming that these things implicate you in themselves. I'm not sure why you're still arguing "Well, that doesn't make me mafia" when this has never been about these things automatically making you mafia.

Also, why are we saying "lone mafia" instead of serial killer, anyway?

Because I didn't remember serial killer was an existing role functionally equivalent to what I was suggesting?

Hm, I didn't assume Negrek killed Light - I thought we'd ruled that out before for some reason, although I can't actually remember why. I'd honestly think a careful serial killer would abstain a lot - the more you kill, the more you open yourself up to the possibility of being detected by some sort of inforole, and once serious suspicion falls on you you're pretty much dead, compared to a multi-person mafia where it's okay for individual members to be sacrificed for the cause. But I suppose that makes less sense in this game - we've known about most everyone's roles for a while, which should have made intelligently directed killing pretty safe. Either way, I'm not actually particularly thinking this is the case anymore since we've deduced it's likely the attack on me came from Superbird and thus we still could be dealing with some sort of cult thing, so the point is kind of moot. I only mentioned it in my last post as an example of the kind of weak evidence I was talking about, which apparently didn't get across right at all.

Regardless, I think it would be useful to hear what RTB has to say at this point. The scenario I mentioned in my previous post is giving me pause.

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

aaaaa ninja'd why did this happen the one time I didn't refresh before posting

Anyway, whoa. That's a twist. Still processing. I agree Wargle seems useful to revive?

And yes, we'd want to know what a tie means here. And yes, abstaining is a good idea. Abstain.

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

(Actually, I guess Wargle more solidifies RTB's innocence, which the revival does in the first place... uhm, is there anything that can confirm or refute either Butterfree's or my innocence?)

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Abstain.

[Your whole quote from before, since quoting it would be lengthy and pointless since I'm not responding to it all.]

Yeah, I seemed to misinterpret what you were saying, then.

I'm pretty sure Negrek just denied it, and then we lynched neg and yeah. Serial killer wording was mostly pointless speculation because uhm. I guess that's a lot of what we're doing now. Not really the climax of the game, but lots of inferences.

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

[Your whole quote from before, since quoting it would be lengthy and pointless since I'm not responding to it all.]

(By your I mean Butterfree, I hope it was obvious but I'm bad at communication while multitasking so.)

 

[M&F]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

If we were to get a tied vote (which doesn't seem to be the case now), we'd technically get time extensions first, if it's reasonable to hand them down, and then... we'd run into the age-old problem of "I don't have a definitive way to handle tiebreaking", although I'm slightly inclined towards random tiebreaking for this game.

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

Alright, time for the reveal.

I'm completely innocent-aligned, and to prove it, I will use my secondary power. I can revive a player once per game. The votes are tied now, and due to a condition of my first power, my vote counts are meaningless. Here, watch. Butterfree.

I just realized that with both of us abstaining, your vote can't be proven to not work since you'd be outnumbered anyway... retracting my vote, I guess, then.

(The vote not counting isn't the notable part, I think; I would say it's the reviving part, but whatever.)

 

[Butterfree]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

I'm not sure we should be doing the vote-counting thing at all. If RTB were the last scum and had a killing move, this would be a really devious way to win the game - the day phase ends, whoops his vote did count, I'm dead, you're helpless as he guns you down. (It would work marginally better if we had him vote for you instead, if we really wanted to test the vote thing, since then in case you did die I could target him in the night and go for at least a double knockout.)

If we're going to have him revive someone anyway, though, I don't think there's any point in testing the vote thing - we'd find out a bit earlier, sure, but with the reviving we'll still find out before the next day phase.

Wargle might have some other information? I don't know; I don't see another obvious person who'd be useful here, and it seems more likely Wargle could come in handy than just some randomer, but then again it's early in the morning.

 

[Mai]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

I'm not sure we should be doing the vote-counting thing at all. If RTB were the last scum and had a killing move, this would be a really devious way to win the game - the day phase ends, whoops his vote did count, I'm dead, you're helpless as he guns you down. (It would work marginally better if we had him vote for you instead, if we really wanted to test the vote thing, since then in case you did die I could target him in the night and go for at least a double knockout.)

If we're going to have him revive someone anyway, though, I don't think there's any point in testing the vote thing - we'd find out a bit earlier, sure, but with the reviving we'll still find out before the next day phase.

Wargle might have some other information? I don't know; I don't see another obvious person who'd be useful here, and it seems more likely Wargle could come in handy than just some randomer, but then again it's early in the morning.

Yeah. So abstain again, I guess.

All possible revivals:

hopeandjoy: Unlikely to have any useful info. Action could possibly protect one of us from the others, but is unlikely to be helpful.
Light: Unlikely to have any useful info. Action is unlikely to be helpful; killing is not what we want here.
Alligates: Unlikely to have any useful info. Action is unlikely to be helpful; no one who doesn't want their action publicized is going to target her.
Zexion: May or may not have useful info. Action may be helpful; info can be very useful.
Superbird: May or may not have useful info. Action may be helpful; mirror move may kill killers or shed light on actions.
Flora: Unlikely to have any useful info. Completely unknown action.
Wargle: Likely to have useful info. Action is unlikely to be helpful - skill swap may complicate things** (which is likely to be passed on: "A player who has this power at the end of the game will lose, regardless of completing their win condition, unless they are dead or this power has been passed along at least three times (players newly recieving this power will not be informed of the running count)." and sleep talk, which may only be effective when dead.
DarkAura: Unlikely to have any useful info. Action is unlikely to be helpful; bodyguarding is unlikely to help when killing has been very sparse. (Though is now undetectable and unpreventable.)
Zero Moment: Unlikely to have any useful info. Action is unlikely to be helpful; endure only protects himself, and killing is in no way what we want right now. *
Negrek: Third party. No.
Eifie: Unlikely to have any useful info. Action is too vague to rely on.
Visitor Message: Third party. No.

* This means don't kill anyone tonight, Butterfree. >|||

** Actually, having Wargle skill swap may be helpful in illuminating/confirming other people's claims. (And then there should be three swaps; me ==> Light; Light ==> Wargle; Wargle ==> ?) However, the info can't be trusted to be absolute, since "some powers may not be swapped out by this one" and the swapped power may be only one out of two or three.

The timeline of the revival is very important; we need to know whether Wargle can use her action, whether she can be killed again after she's revived, and, if she targets me, if she can become my lover (and if so, if someone can kill us both then).

 

[RespectTheBlade]

Re: Trainer Class Pokéchoice Mafia - Game Thread

I'll keep my vote, just to prove my votes are meaningless for the time being, and I assume I'm to revive Wargle? I still would really like to know if the cult affiliation is kept upon death. Wouldn't want to accidentally revive a cult member, though looking back at it Wargle seems like a pretty trustworthy choice.