Communism?

[brandman]

is this the same guy who said "gays are all fags" or some such in the homosexuality thread? I haven't really been paying attention.

No? Ah, I probably shouldn't have done it, oh well. Got an infraction though. :(

 

[Pwnemon]

The statistic is composed from data on life expectancy, education and per-capita GDP

One thing on the HDI actually has anything to do with economy.

Kthx.

 

[shy ♡]

Are you saying that life expectancy and education are not important enough to be considered?

Socialism, democracy, communism - they weren't created just for the economy. The economy is a way of running the system which in turn is meant to support people. The people are what matter, not the money.

 

[Pwnemon]

I know this. But I'm not saying that Socialism and Communism are the same in any regard, except the economy. So my question was, "What is the economic difference between socialism and communism?" and a straight answer would be appreciated.

 

[shy ♡]

Socialism v Communism. Wiki is your friend.

 

[Pwnemon]

Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.[1][2][3]

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless society structured upon communal ownership of the means of production and the end of wage labour and private property.[1]

Yeah I really see not much difference there. Furthermore, I'm not alone:

The exact definition of communism varies and it is commonly used interchangeably with socialism,

 

[Dark Shocktail]

The exact definition of communism varies and it is commonly used interchangeably with socialism, however, communist theory contends that socialism is just a transitional stage on the way to communism.

Learn to read the entire source before quoting please.

 

[#1 bro]

Okay time for my opinion.

I don't know shit about anything tbh but it's always seemed fucked to me that, at least over here, workers' salary is almost inversely proportional to how much they contribute to society. Blue-collar workers are forced to do all the boring jobs that actually need to get done for us to maintain the standard of living we have, such as mining, collecting the garbage, working in a factory/slaughterhouse, shipping things, building houses, etc. These jobs are the ones that are extremely physically/mentally difficult, and they are something that white collar people cannot even fathom having to do. And yet, as we get to leisurely sit in our cubicles checking our fantasy sports rankings while keeping two fingers hovered over apple + H just in case our bosses come by and want to see the Power Points we're working on about how we can effectively turn a profit in the fourth quarter, we are making far more money than the blue collar workers for an exponentially easier job, and more importantly, a job that contributes far less to society. It seems to me that what most office workers are hired for is to sit around and figure out ways to more effectively exploit the blue collar workers to turn a profit, in order to beat those other fuckers over at the office next door who are hiring guys to do the exact same thing, in an endless cycle of bullshit that just ends up lining the pockets of the fattest cats on the totem pole, the executives who contribute the least of all and yet make something like 600 times the amount of the average worker (I read this fact in a book the other day iirc).

Obviously not every middle class person is an office worker, but the vast majority of middle class people have a job that is not only a luxury to them but offers a luxury to other members of the middle class (either that, or a job that just makes them rich and make the guys above them even richer). The richest guy in America is just a guy who played the stock market well, he contributed absolutely nothing! The ultimate upper middle class white American dream is to graduate from college and become self employed, sitting around all day in a spacious Manhattan loft doing something vaguely creative ("graphic designer" is a popular choice), contributing almost nothing but living in an idyllic manner, blissfully ignoring the struggles of those below them who are condemned to a life of serving the upper class. And this is coming from someone who wants almost exactly that.

(and of course there are exceptions, namely janitors, people who work in retail, engineers, doctors, lawyers (sort of), the list goes on)

In my ideal world, people get paid in a way that corresponds with the terribleness of their job. Miners and prostitutes are the richest motherfuckers on the planet, going all the way down to something like pro sports player. It's only fair this way - the people who do the worst jobs get the compensation they have earned, and everyone else gets to be lazy and do whatever they want, they just have to buy the generic brand of cereal from now on. It's a trade-off.

Instead, though, we appear to live in a society where those who are more fortunate have decided that, you know what, we like being lazy, we're just not going to do any work and keep all the money! Except for the fact that modern society has fucked us up so much that if we are given the opportunity to sit around and not have to work and all (i.e. the ultimate pursuit in life), we become bored and depressed instead of happy and free like we should be. So we invent some arbitrary pointless tasks for us to do to keep us occupied, and then we go home and sit back enjoying all the shit we don't deserve and complain about our lives while elsewhere people slave away on the night shift for us, just so they can feed their kids.

Ummm so in case you haven't guessed from the above I am basically for communism, or at least against capitalism. The thing is, I don't really understand the how of socialist societies, or what actual effect they have on people's lives, I just sort of think the principal is far more fundamentally sound than the one we have. People say "communism only works on paper" but iirc the reason the Soviet Union and communist China sucked so much was not because of their economic policies but the fact that the leaders were all corrupt - something completely independent of being communist. Meanwhile, modern socialist countries around the world are doing alright!

As far as the difference between socialist and communist, in school they more or less just taught us "communism is like socialism, but worse somehow". So I don't really know what's going on there.

Sorry for the rambling/inflammatory nature of this post but ehhh. This is what my thoughts sound like.

 

[Tarvos]

There are marked differences between the Soviet Union and, say, Denmark.

 

[Pwnemon]

If you say, "Communism works, it's just that every country which has tried it as of yet has gotten a slew of corrupt leaders," then one could easily make the argument that communism is corruptible.

 

[ultraviolet]

If you say, "Communism works, it's just that every country which has tried it as of yet has gotten a slew of corrupt leaders," then one could easily make the argument that communism is corruptible.

I was under the impression that any economic system has a chance for corruption; capitalism certainly does.

 

[Tarvos]

If you say, "Communism works, it's just that every country which has tried it as of yet has gotten a slew of corrupt leaders," then one could easily make the argument that communism is corruptible.

There is always someone who can abuse any system to any effect. Every social group is vulnerable to people who basically fuck the system, and abuse it for their own ends.

 

[goldenquagsire]

One thing on the HDI actually has anything to do with economy.

Kthx.

so you're content with a pisspoor education system and an underwhelmingly short life expectancy for a large proportion of the population as long as you can wave your financial dick around the world stage?

 

[Tarvos]

i would hate the education system, but long life expectancy is overrated if that includes sitting in a room full of demented people with alzheimer unable to recognise your children

 

[Pwnemon]

so you're content with a pisspoor education system and an underwhelmingly short life expectancy for a large proportion of the population as long as you can wave your financial dick around the world stage?

So you're still going to misconstrue me?

I'll post it loud and clear here to make sure there's no more "accidental" confusion.

I WANT TO KNOW THE ECONOMIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM. I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING CRAP ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT THE ECONOMIC DIFFERENCE BECAUSE I REALIZE THAT THEY HAVE SOCIAL DIFFERENCES.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

So you're still going to misconstrue me?

I'll post it loud and clear here to make sure there's no more "accidental" confusion.

I WANT TO KNOW THE ECONOMIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM. I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING CRAP ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT THE ECONOMIC DIFFERENCE BECAUSE I REALIZE THAT THEY HAVE SOCIAL DIFFERENCES.

It's funny that you would accuse him of misconstruing you when you are responding to something totally unrelated to what he just said. Here's a plan for you;

1. Read the quote from you that he's quoting.
2. Read what he said in his post.
3. Connect the two and discover, to your amazement, that he is in fact responding to the quote from you.
4. Realise you were being a hypocrite.
5. ???
6. NO PROFIT FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE ALREADY LIVING A FINANCIALLY COMFORTABLE LIFE AND THERE ARE WORSE-OFF PEOPLE WHO COULD BETTER USE THE MONEY

 

[Dark Shocktail]

I WANT TO KNOW THE ECONOMIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM. I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING CRAP ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT THE ECONOMIC DIFFERENCE BECAUSE I REALIZE THAT THEY HAVE SOCIAL DIFFERENCES.

Google is your friend. Typed in "Difference in economy between socialism and communism". First page, first link.

One point that is frequently raised to distinguish socialism from communism is that socialism generally refers to an economic system, while communism generally refers to both an economic and a political system. As an economic system, socialism seeks to manage the economy through deliberate and collective social control. Communism, however, seeks to manage both the economy and the society by ensuring that property is owned collectively, and that control over the distribution of property is centralized in order to achieve both classlessness and statelessness.

Same website, just a paragraph down the page.

Another difference between socialism and communism is that communists assert that both capitalism and private ownership of the means of production must be done away with as soon as possible in order to make sure a classless society, the communist ideal, is formed. Socialists, however, see capitalism as a possible part of the ideal state and believe that socialism can exist in a capitalist society. In fact, one of the ideas of socialism is that everyone within the society will benefit from capitalism as much as possible as long as the capitalism is controlled somehow by a centralized planning system.

Now stop shouting.

 

[Pwnemon]

It's funny that you would accuse him of misconstruing you when you are responding to something totally unrelated to what he just said. Here's a plan for you;

1. Read the quote from you that he's quoting.
2. Read what he said in his post.
3. Connect the two and discover, to your amazement, that he is in fact responding to the quote from you.
4. Realise you were being a hypocrite.
5. ???
6. NO PROFIT FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE ALREADY LIVING A FINANCIALLY COMFORTABLE LIFE AND THERE ARE WORSE-OFF PEOPLE WHO COULD BETTER USE THE MONEY

It's funny that you're STILL ignoring what I said. I mean seriously, I'm getting a kick out of it.

 

[Zora of Termina]

It's funny that you're STILL ignoring what I said. I mean seriously, I'm getting a kick out of it.

It's funny that you say he's ignoring what you said when you're ignoring what he said. Hypocrisy goes both ways you know.

Just popping in here, feel free to rip my opinion apart at your leisure.

I believe that yes, communism works in theory. A society without social classes would be lovely; no way to determine rich from poor, garbage man from Wall Street fat cat. Although obviously, it can never truly happen. There'll always be people who'll use it to gain power, and there'll always be idiots to misinterpret the message.

Yeah it'd be great to see it actually work, but it'll never happen.

 

[Pwnemon]

It's funny that you say he's ignoring what you said when you're ignoring what he said. Hypocrisy goes both ways you know.

Just popping in here, feel free to rip my opinion apart at your leisure.

I believe that yes, communism works in theory. A society without social classes would be lovely; no way to determine rich from poor, garbage man from Wall Street fat cat. Although obviously, it can never truly happen. There'll always be people who'll use it to gain power, and there'll always be idiots to misinterpret the message.

Yeah it'd be great to see it actually work, but it'll never happen.

I'm not going to rip you apart for this. I agree. Anybody who DOESN'T think that communism is the single best system ever in theory needs their head checked. The problem is, it's impossible for it to work.